Fantasy Dates - Screencaps - Discussion

ninu wrote:
I think what we need is a pro-Ben list... at some point, it'll MAYBE become long enough that it warrants a comparison to JP's lists, but I don't see that happening just yet I'm back on the Cupcake Tram, it's okay if it turns into a fireball @ the FRC

My Chris Lambton Tram crashed and burned last year... I'm climbing on the Cupcake Tram and hanging on for dear life in hopes that I'll be right this time. :awesome: :awesome: :awesome:

Did emily not have a page last season along with the other final 4 that chris mention??

Not sure, but I think Emily did have a whole page to herself, but I didn't think she was part of the 5 to watch.

Jeepers wrote:Seeing as no one actually SAW Ash ""with her man"" last weekend I find it hard to assume that is the only option. No one has SEEN any such thing

I have to agree with this comment. Coming from New York, I know that on July 4th weekend, everyone gets out of the city. It's entirely possible that JP went to the beach with friends. My sister and brother in law, who live in Brooklyn, always get out of town during that holiday. The city is like a ghost town. I used to like going to the city on that holiday weekend, because I could get around without any crowds.

Now if we had seen JP at an airport, then that might be evidence that he could be meeting Ashley. Also, we did see Ashley in an airport but she could have been going home to be with her family.

I have been a huge JP fan and supporter from the very beginning, but I just think this idea that he and Ashley had a rendevous anywhere is far from a certainty. Of course, should any concrete evidence come out that they were together, I would be totally happy!

No body saw JP so we aren't sure where he was. Lots of people saw Ben though. He was most def in San Fran.

Pattycake92 wrote:No body saw JP so we aren't sure where he was. Lots of people saw Ben though. He was most def in San Fran.

Where and when and by whom was he seen??

Don't want to sound like a school marm here, but we need to make a distinction between evidence, which is "a thing helpful in forming a conclusion or judgment", and proof, which is incontrovertable, and would mean "game over". If we had any actual proof, we would not still be debating this (well, maybe a few of us would still be). But the evidence we have accumulated surrounding the July 4 weekend lends itself to supporting JP as F1 much more than it lends itself to supporting Ben as F1.

In a court of law, each side generally produces evidence to prove its case. Sometimes, if one side has no evidence, they can only spend their time trying to poke holes in the other side's evidence, which is fine. But I would love to see some evidence that supports Ben as F1 in addition, that's all I'm saying.

ironcat wrote:Don't want to sound like a school marm here, but we need to make a distinction between evidence, which is "a thing helpful in forming a conclusion or judgment", and proof, which is incontrovertable, and would mean "game over". If we had any actual proof, we would not still be debating this (well, maybe a few of us would still be). But the evidence we have accumulated surrounding the July 4 weekend lends itself to supporting JP as F1 much more than it lends itself to supporting Ben as F1.

In a court of law, each side generally produces evidence to prove its case. Sometimes, if one side has no evidence, they can only spend their time trying to poke holes in the other side's evidence, which is fine. But I would love to see some evidence that supports Ben as F1 in addition, that's all I'm saying.

I would too.

ironcat wrote:Don't want to sound like a school marm here, but we need to make a distinction between evidence, which is "a thing helpful in forming a conclusion or judgment", and proof, which is incontrovertable, and would mean "game over". If we had any actual proof, we would not still be debating this (well, maybe a few of us would still be). But the evidence we have accumulated surrounding the July 4 weekend lends itself to supporting JP as F1 much more than it lends itself to supporting Ben as F1.

In a court of law, each side generally produces evidence to prove its case. Sometimes, if one side has no evidence, they can only spend their time trying to poke holes in the other side's evidence, which is fine. But I would love to see some evidence that supports Ben as F1 in addition, that's all I'm saying.

Yea, but some of us still have reasonable doubt about the "evidence" LOL

pavalygurl wrote:

ironcat wrote:Don't want to sound like a school marm here, but we need to make a distinction between evidence, which is "a thing helpful in forming a conclusion or judgment", and proof, which is incontrovertable, and would mean "game over". If we had any actual proof, we would not still be debating this (well, maybe a few of us would still be). But the evidence we have accumulated surrounding the July 4 weekend lends itself to supporting JP as F1 much more than it lends itself to supporting Ben as F1.

In a court of law, each side generally produces evidence to prove its case. Sometimes, if one side has no evidence, they can only spend their time trying to poke holes in the other side's evidence, which is fine. But I would love to see some evidence that supports Ben as F1 in addition, that's all I'm saying.

Yea, but some of us still have reasonable doubt about the "evidence" LOL

Right, and that's why you're entitled to try to "poke holes" in it, as I stated. Once again, evidence is not proof. What I'm asking for is where is the evidence on the other side?

I know we have no proof either way, but we did not have proof about CL last year either. I sometimes feel if I post against the majority of the board, I will be talked down too.

As far as last year goes, I did not believe she chose no one, I thought roberto the whole time, this year I am thinking JP, but I can see the good in ben too. I guess my thought is if she is happy with her choice I am happy for her. I am on the side of ashley this time around. I just hope we get the awesome love story we got last year. To me the love story was there through out, but it really took hold at the LCD. I think that is when we will really know :Nod:

ironcat wrote:

albean99 wrote:There's never real evidence nor do we have to prove anything. You can be sure as you like but it doesn't mean we all have to agree. I'm quickly getting over this. I haven't seen any "real" evidence that it's JP either and even if you're right and I'm wrong does it really do any harm?

JP evidence (not proof, nobody has any proof)-

1) RS spoiler
2) Physical chemistry with JP, which with Bachelorettes, usually means the F1 (Meredith, Jillian, Ali, only Trista could be considered the exception).
3) Ashley told JP first, and privately about Bentley. Ben's reaction was barely shown.
4) Ashley's blog said her honest love story began in episode 6; JP had a solo date, Ben was not featured prominently.
5) JP speaks lovingly about Ashley in his vlog, defends her. Ben's vlog is short and emotionless.
6) Ben started (innocently) tweeting with Bach alum girls until he was probably told to cool it. JP totally lying low as to interraction with anybody.
7) Ben reportedly spotted out and about during presumed safehouse weekend; no trace of JP during same timeframe.
8 JP had solo date in episode 3, same as Ed, Roberto, Ian, Ryan, Jerry, Emily. No F1 has ever had first solo date in episode 5.
9) Ben one of CH's "ones to watch"; no F1 ever mentioned, but most F2's are.
10)Promo FRC screencap shows JP arriving later than Ben (I realize this is now being disputed).
11)Ashley's alleged slip, saying JP's name on JKL.


That's all I can think of at the moment, I'm sure there are more. From where I'm sitting, it's pretty one sided, which even I find weird.

And we don't have to agree.

This may not count as "evidence" at all, but it is a "pattern" that is probably not a coincidence.

Unfortunately, Ben is also getting a lot of Final 2 Dumpee editing.

1-Trista's Charlie, Jason, Kiptyn and Chris L. all got to drive a car, jeep or scooter. In Meredith's season, Matt commented on screen that he could see a future with Meredith riding with him in his truck, but I can't remember if he actually drove on a date. They seem to want F2 to look like they have charge of at least one steering wheel or handle. (Side note: In episode #2 of both Ali and Ashley's seasons, Frank and William were not permitted to drive for some reason... or if they did, it was edited out. Because they want to make a point about the lead being "in charge" of those relationships?)
2-All of them, I think, got the words "boyfriend" and "potential husband" directed to them, words not used with final one until after Fantasy Suite time... usually. (Not sure if this one is written in stone, but I have noticed it since Deanna.)
3-Kiptyn got a cute pet discussion as an outtake in Madrid, while Ben discussed doggie talk with her. Now, Roberto and Ali observed a cat eating, but that scene was a bit different... and we actually saw the cat.
4-The narrative comments regarding the group dates and the other guys fits in with both F2 guys and girls. Tenley did some narration in Jake's sason, as did Chantal. Usually F1 only discusses the lead and not the trip... and you may notice that JP's comments about boxing and wedding photo dates are more about his personal anxieties (i.e worrying about what he'll be wearing or fearing to be seen as a coward in boxing). Now, JP did make an indirect Jeff comment (not by name though and he was shown talking to Jeff face to face), but the only times we hear him discuss others is when they threaten his relationship with her (i.e. Ryan and Lucas). On the other hand, Ben plays a stronger narration role, including two discussions about Jeff at episode #2's rose ceremony and episode #3's roast, and comments a bit more on Ryan's behavior.
5-Chris Harrison has praised the F2s more than F1 in print. This always indicates a promotion for next season's lead. Jason, Kiptyn and Chris received equal publicity, even though they didn't all take the role.
6-Usually F2 gets the flawless hometown date. We shall see what happens here. They are seeking a candidate for Bachelor and want viewers to feel comfort with his background.
7-F2 tends to be more "stable" than F1 in the case of the Bachelorette seasons. (Less so with Bachelor.) Now, this season, they couldn't do much with Jordan... he is too good to be true and they are grasping for straws. Instead, we are getting the Ashley-is-totally-insecure-that-he-may-leave-her edit.

Sorry... guess this belongs on the editing thread and not here.