Re: The Bachelor: Women Tell All - 3/04 - Discussion Thread

[pavalygurl]

I do think Sean got caught up in the moment in the Fantasy Suite and probably said some things to AshLee that never should have been said unless he was 100% sure she would be the final one. I can see how she would have had the impression that she was going to be F1. Sean told her before she got in the limo, "I thought from the beginning that it would be you." The moment he said that, I thought that he had seriously misled her and told her something in the Fantasy Suite leading her to believe she would not be going home, and that he knew it and was trying to cover his behind... So, I guess I'm the only one who doesn't think AshLee is just completely crazy here. I do think she fell hard for Sean, but I think it's because she was being seriously misled from early on and strongly led to believe that she was F1 - moreso than the other girls.

You aren't the only one, perhaps one of the few that will state such.
For what it's worth--I agree with you.
If I had been accused of something I did not say--I would look a bit more than "befuddled". I would have been totally outraged and difficult to contain, especially given the fact it was on tv with a live audience. Just me.
Heck, we have seen much more outrage on this message board when people disagree. :shocked!:

Not sure I agree here, Kasha. We already have seen how Sean was able to contain himself with Des' brother so I think it's very possible that he was totally outraged internally and was able to school his expression to befuddlement. I think his blog describes the conundrum in which he found himself; feeling his character was being attacked and, thus, wanting to defend himself and concomitantly wanting to be respectful to AshLee and not attack her character.

I have been thinking about this all since last night and still am not sure where I think the truth lies...most likely somewhere in between. I do think AshLee had a fantasy view of Sean in which she may believe she heard what she repeated last night. I also think she is still not over him or more importantly her childhood trauma. Nonetheless, I can't go so far as to say she deliberately wanted to hurt Sean by lying about something he said/didn't say. I am a counselor by education/training and work experience although I currently am not working in that role. I usually turn out to be a pretty good judge of people based upon this experience. Something about Sean does not sit well with me either. I think his intentions may be good, but he has a very rigid view of life/how one "should" behave/how he sees himself as a MAN. From his own words and from screen caps we see, I think he led her on, big time. That coupled with her world view and wanting a "knight" is the recipe which brought us to where we are. Not too hopeful right now about Sean and Catherine, or for AshLee unless she has/continues some therapy to help her overcome her childhood trauma. I see Catherine as "young" right now and just growing into the remarkable woman I think she will be. I think she will outgrow Sean. The question is how soon.

[ja1968]

I do think Sean got caught up in the moment in the Fantasy Suite and probably said some things to AshLee that never should have been said unless he was 100% sure she would be the final one. I can see how she would have had the impression that she was going to be F1. Sean told her before she got in the limo, "I thought from the beginning that it would be you." The moment he said that, I thought that he had seriously misled her and told her something in the Fantasy Suite leading her to believe she would not be going home, and that he knew it and was trying to cover his behind... So, I guess I'm the only one who doesn't think AshLee is just completely crazy here. I do think she fell hard for Sean, but I think it's because she was being seriously misled from early on and strongly led to believe that she was F1 - moreso than the other girls.

You aren't the only one, perhaps one of the few that will state such.
For what it's worth--I agree with you.
If I had been accused of something I did not say--I would look a bit more than "befuddled". I would have been totally outraged and difficult to contain, especially given the fact it was on tv with a live audience. Just me.
Heck, we have seen much more outrage on this message board when people disagree. :shocked!:

Not sure I agree here, Kasha. We already have seen how Sean was able to contain himself with Des' brother so I think it's very possible that he was totally outraged internally and was able to school his expression to befuddlement. I think his blog describes the conundrum in which he found himself; feeling his character was being attacked and, thus, wanting to defend himself and concomitantly wanting to be respectful to AshLee and not attack her character.

I have been thinking about this all since last night and still am not sure where I think the truth lies...most likely somewhere in between. I do think AshLee had a fantasy view of Sean in which she may believe she heard what she repeated last night. I also think she is still not over him or more importantly her childhood trauma. Nonetheless, I can't go so far as to say she deliberately wanted to hurt Sean by lying about something he said/didn't say. I am a counselor by education/training and work experience although I currently am not working in that role. I usually turn out to be a pretty good judge of people based upon this experience. Something about Sean does not sit well with me either. I think his intentions may be good, but he has a very rigid view of life/how one "should" behave/how he sees himself as a MAN. From his own words and from screen caps we see, I think he led her on, big time. That coupled with her world view and wanting a "knight" is the recipe which brought us to where we are. Not too hopeful right now about Sean and Catherine, or for AshLee unless she has/continues some therapy to help her overcome her childhood trauma. I see Catherine as "young" right now and just growing into the remarkable woman I think she will be. I think she will outgrow Sean. The question is how soon.

[HowSoonIsNow]

Whether he said it or not (or implied it or was misconstrued), he pretty much HAS to claim that he didn't say "I had no feelings for the other two girls" two weeks before proposing to one of those 2 girls that he allegedly didn't care about, for his fiance's sake.

It was clear from last's episode as well as the press release(?) quoted upthread this morning that he was more focused on that particular wording used than on AshLee's overall message. In fact, AshLee changed the actual wording a couple of times last night, so even in AshLee's mind it wasn't about the wording but the message. But Sean's reaction has been to fixate on the wording and not the message, and naturally so, because of Catherine.

It somewhat reminds me of Brad & Chantal at ATFR, when Chantal specifically pointed out that Brad couldn't say or admit to certain things on camera for Emily's sake.

It's a conundrum for people in AshLee's and Chantal's situation. They can never hope to get the full truth from the Lead on camera, because the Lead has a fiancee and relationship to consider, and that fiance & relationship do and should higher rank in priority than you do. So whether he said/did those things or not, he needs to emphatically say on camera that he did not.

[jcrbil]

pavalygurl said:
Nonetheless, I can't go so far as to say she deliberately wanted to hurt Sean by lying about something he said/didn't say.

While I do think that AshLee does think that Sean said that about the other two girls (or implied it, or some combination thereof) I have come to the opinion that she fully DID intend to hurt him. I believe she was aware that to impugn his integrity would inflict the biggest possible hurt to him. Poohbear who was in the audience- was it on this thread or somewhere else?- said the encounter lasted twice as long and was even more uncomfortable. AshLee didn't have to challenge him this way- reading an interview someone had with her, she had written things in her journal- in the days between her FD and being sent home- which reinforced what she believes he said to her. But I would be certain she didn't write them down as he said them. She chose THE most public of venues (granted, the only one allowed except immediately after being sent home when she chose not to speak). I suppose, though, that I give her props for talking to his face rather than just in the tabs/interviews.

Unfortunately, I think the sweet AshLee for whom we had compassion did herself a disservice.

[pavalygurl]

[quote="NCGalBecca"]While I can't imagine Sean saying the exact words that AshLee said, I can see him "over promising" in some way that she interpreted more seriously than he meant. Also, if she's been the frontrunner all season, by this point, why didn't he know her better and be more in tune or intuitive to how she would take his words and actions so he could choose them carefully - especially if he knew he was gonna dump her?

All season, he has been pretty guilty of either (1) being overly enthusiastic - and over promising or (2) fickle..i.e. caught up in the moment until something better comes along on the next date.

Sorry, I'm just not really impressed with his TB performance. I don't think his actions were intentionally harmful but came from a lack of experience and being too much of a "company man". Frankly, I had hoped to see him be more mature, measured and serious about finding someone to marry and wanted to believe in the ending. Instead I feel like I've been watching Sean's big adventure.

This is what I am talking about. While Sean was not my first choice going in, I had nothing against him. What I feel now is that he is really socially immature with women and I can't reconcile that with just being "religious". He was looking "for his high school sweetheart" and that's about the level of maturity we saw. The dates were challenges to the women, with them having to "prove" themselves worthy. When Dez dared to question where things were going, he took umbrage and she was dismissed. He has a sense of humor about "pranks" which parallels a teenager. I ended up not liking him very much. :Frown:

[Guest]

I was expecting Sean to say LIEEESaaaMinelli last night.

"I have no feelings for the other two girls" is not something Sean would say. Its not his style, syntax or wording.

Sean has the vocab of a player down pat "Im crazy about you" I think the world of you" I love being with you" he says this over and over to anyone who would listen., but "I had no feelings for the other girls"? Seems like oversharing to me and Sean is not the type to overshare cause he's too robotic and too much of a model employee to do this, short of being blind drunk or under hypnosis I don't see how it will come out from Sean's mouth.

Also, how can Ashlee remember its been months since the FD, and if he really said it, she could have supported it with a context like "you said this before we fetched a drink and I made you say it twice because I can't believe you said this"...

I would've believed Ashlee, if there was a specific context that she provided. But no just these random words that she meant to "dishonor" Sean and her chosen F2's on tv. She didnt even write Sean a note to clarify right after filming ends, if she was really confused she should have not waited until she's on tv to address this issue.


Not to say Sean is innocent though. But AshLee is freakin 32 years old and has been married already, its the oversheltered bachelor boy vs a 32 year old with a baggage and sense of entitlement. It's difficult to take sides.

[ja1968]

pavalygurl said:
Nonetheless, I can't go so far as to say she deliberately wanted to hurt Sean by lying about something he said/didn't say.

While I do think that AshLee does think that Sean said that about the other two girls (or implied it, or some combination thereof) I have come to the opinion that she fully DID intend to hurt him. I believe she was aware that to impugn his integrity would inflict the biggest possible hurt to him. Poohbear who was in the audience- was it on this thread or somewhere else?- said the encounter lasted twice as long and was even more uncomfortable. AshLee didn't have to challenge him this way- reading an interview someone had with her, she had written things in her journal- in the days between her FD and being sent home- which reinforced what she believes he said to her. But I would be certain she didn't write them down as he said them. She chose THE most public of venues (granted, the only one allowed except immediately after being sent home when she chose not to speak). I suppose, though, that I give her props for talking to his face rather than just in the tabs/interviews.

Unfortunately, I think the sweet AshLee for whom we had compassion did herself a disservice.

I did not get that feeling from watching her on the show at all. We will never know the truth of what happened, but I believe she believed what she was saying. I agree she did not help herself last night but Sean is not blamelss in this.

[chicagoowl]

pavalygurl said:
Nonetheless, I can't go so far as to say she deliberately wanted to hurt Sean by lying about something he said/didn't say.

While I do think that AshLee does think that Sean said that about the other two girls (or implied it, or some combination thereof) I have come to the opinion that she fully DID intend to hurt him. I believe she was aware that to impugn his integrity would inflict the biggest possible hurt to him. Poohbear who was in the audience- was it on this thread or somewhere else?- said the encounter lasted twice as long and was even more uncomfortable. AshLee didn't have to challenge him this way- reading an interview someone had with her, she had written things in her journal- in the days between her FD and being sent home- which reinforced what she believes he said to her. But I would be certain she didn't write them down as he said them. She chose THE most public of venues (granted, the only one allowed except immediately after being sent home when she chose not to speak). I suppose, though, that I give her props for talking to his face rather than just in the tabs/interviews.

Unfortunately, I think the sweet AshLee for whom we had compassion did herself a disservice.

I did not get that feeling from watching her on the show at all. We will never know the truth of what happened, but I believe she believed what she was saying. I agree she did not help herself last night but Sean is not blamelss in this.

No one is blameless here. No one will ever know for sure who is at fault. It's a he said/she said situation. Ashlee started the conversation saying she just wanted to know why Sean dumped her. Sean explained why. Now why was it necessary to bring up the other stuff? Ashlee says she's a Christian and quotes the Bible all the time. If she was the perfect Christian she would have the attitude of forgiving Sean instead of trying to embarrass him.

Even if Sean said the things he said, her holy self should have taken the high road and "turned the other cheek." I have no problem with people calling out others, but when the person who does the calling out is Ashlee, who claims to be so mature and a true Christian, and quotes the Bible all the time... there's a big problem. She was hurt and wanted to be vindictive.. plain & simple. Whether Sean was right or wrong... Ashlee is not the "mature" person everyone thought she was. A mature person would have risen above it. Cat & Linds act more mature. It's clear that Ashlee needs to work on her issues... and put into perspective that this is a dating show where her "boyfriend" Sean has to date and string along 25 others.

[Admin]

I believe she will regret doing what she did. Even if part way right, it was small of her.

She tweeted this last night so maybe she does regret it:

Ashlee Frazier
For the record I wish nothing but the best for @SeanLowe09 and his family. Xoxo
8:47pm - 4 Mar 13

I haven't watched it yet so I can't judge, but I might just not even watch it because I like(d) both Sean and Ashlee. :(

[Mera]

Seems Ashlee's mom told Sean she needs to be called out or some such thing. So yday when she told Sean he said "such and such" and he said he didn't she backed off twice...."I take that back what you said was......". She did the same with Tierra and reworded what was said. Maybe she starts with words that fit her mental picture and when someone stands up to her she backs off and rewords and serves a variation.

If she doesn't watch it she could turn out to be a constant nag and alientate even her dream man. No one can be right all the time.

Interesting she was friends with Tierra early on . The other women pulled a Tierra with raised eyebrows :skeptic: when she expected him to come and check on her and ask "are you ok, babe". The producers could have filled him in on what was up when he asked. Seems she feels the need to control how everything should play out on her terms.

Very sad she's bitter four months later.

[moonpie]

I believe she will regret doing what she did. Even if part way right, it was small of her.

She tweeted this last night so maybe she does regret it:

Ashlee Frazier
For the record I wish nothing but the best for @SeanLowe09 and his family. Xoxo
8:47pm - 4 Mar 13

I haven't watched it yet so I can't judge, but I might just not even watch it because I like(d) both Sean and Ashlee. :(

She also tweeted this in response to Chris B (Emily's season):

14 hrs ashlee frazier‏@ashleefrazier
truth always prevails

She's also got an interview with OK magazine, reiterating her stance on what happened and says, "it just shows me who Sean is."

I think she wants to continue to get her side of things out there. No regrets yet, but maybe eventually.

[chicagoowl]

Here's an excerpt from Trista's Blog. She makes an interesting point:

"Now onto what transpired with AshLee. When AshLee first mentioned that she felt upset because Sean brought up meeting his family and being best friends with her sister, I fell into her shoes and agreed. But, as Sean mentioned, you should be honest with your feelings as the Bachelor or Bachelorette, even if they may change, at least in theory. It’s a really fine line. You have to open up enough to get to know people on a deeper level, but you also have to be careful not to lead them on. Unfortunately, I erred on the side of being closed off. I didn’t want to hurt Ryan if I changed my mind so I didn’t open up but through the process he got hurt because I didn’t open up enough. I completely understand both sides."

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