Nick Viall - Bachelor 21 - Episode 7 Feb 13 - *Sleuthing Spoilers*

Who needs enemies when you have friends who hang out with you and then imply you are a secret bi*ch?

JMO.

I think you can argue who was in the right and if certain people are being petty, but I think it's pretty indisputable, IMO, that Vanessa did rub a lot of girls the wrong way (namely Rachel, DLo, Corinne, Kristina). There is just too much evidence to ignore, IMO. Maybe this will turn out to be a Nick-type situation, where he was a decent person, but just didn't do well in that environment with those strong feelings. Or maybe it will turn out to be a Nikki-type situation, where all the rumors we heard about her bad behavior were pretty much verified later on (by her time on Couples Therapy). That's all up for argument and not something we can really objectively know now, since we don't have all the facts. IMO.

I don't doubt that she rubbed some of the girls the wrong way, just that I seriously doubt that she was as bad as some of the girls are implying.   I also doubt that Rachel or any of the other girls were sweet little angels.  Vanessa very much seems like if she is wronged or "thrown under the bus" she would definitely stand up for herself AND she does seems like a very passionate person who, I am sure, has a temper.

As for Kristina - my opinion of her has changed a lot since she seemed to be buddy, buddy with Vanessa while visiting her and some of the others and then turning around and acting very catty!

IMO, none of the girls are angels, but I really don't think Vanessa deserves the hate she is getting.

Lara wrote:I think you can argue who was in the right and if certain people are being petty, but I think it's pretty indisputable, IMO, that Vanessa did rub a lot of girls the wrong way (namely Rachel, DLo, Corinne, Kristina). There is just too much evidence to ignore, IMO. Maybe this will turn out to be a Nick-type situation, where he was a decent person, but just didn't do well in that environment with those strong feelings. Or maybe it will turn out to be a Nikki-type situation, where all the rumors we heard about her bad behavior were pretty much verified later on (by her time on Couples Therapy). That's all up for argument and not something we can really objectively know now, since we don't have all the facts. IMO.

Great post! I totally think it's possible this could be a case of option 1. the environment brings out the worst of somebody or option 2. they are as rumored or worst. For some reason one thing we can know 100% certain is that a) V was struggling and emotional epi 6 b) V was not hanging out with the women during epi 7 when there would usually be people around c) there is speculation and some social media behavior that hints at tension between V and some of the women. d) for some reason or other TPTB have chosen not to show V and her personality as much this season. The truth of the matter is - the real personality of a person rarely ever comes out during the show particularly if they are the F1.

I was watching another dating show "catching kelce" and the winner on that show was portrayed in a very negative light. But also for this franchise Bachette Canada winner was also portrayed in a bad light, Bach AUS winner was portrayed in a bad light. I suspect that the franchise has gotten a lot of backlash and are deciding to reel things in and not throw the F1/winner under the bus. The Bach AUS winner is the worst example of this -- there was a lot of hate towards the F1 and she wasn't even that obnoxious IMHO to warrant the portrayal she got on the show.

V hasn't been fully portrayed which is such a lost opportunity for the final couple because people aren't invested in their love story particularly if they are together and could enjoy having people rally behind them.

George1218 wrote:I don't doubt that she rubbed some of the girls the wrong way, just that I seriously doubt that she was as bad as some of the girls are implying.   I also doubt that Rachel or any of the other girls were sweet little angels.  Vanessa very much seems like if she is wronged or "thrown under the bus" she would definitely stand up for herself AND she does seems like a very passionate person who, I am sure, has a temper.

As for Kristina - my opinion of her has changed a lot since she seemed to be buddy, buddy with Vanessa while visiting her and some of the others and then turning around and acting very catty!

IMO, none of the girls are angels, but I really don't think Vanessa deserves the hate she is getting.

Who has implied it though? You have Kristina liking a tweet that called her a bully and a secret b*tch, but has there been anything else public? I haven't seen a single thing, besides that CFA convo where they didn't use names. And, I also don't see how Vanessa is getting any extreme hate. I've seen every other girl called much, much worse. I can't even repeat some of the things I've seen Rachel called, so I don't see her as this poor victim. IMO.

I also don't think Rachel was this sweet angel, but I believe her when she said she would leave the room when drama was taking place. You can tell that's true from how she talked to Corinne and Taylor before their 2-on-1, IMO. So I don't believe she was the instigator here. From her saying "that's so fake" in that promo, I'm guessing it was about Vanessa badmouthing her behind her back and being sweet to her face, IMO. That's allegedly what happened with DLo and what happened with Corinne, so that's my theory. IMO. I haven't see any of the other girls exhibit any bad behavior post-season, besides Kristina; I do agree that Kristina shouldn't have hung out with Vanessa if she didn't like her behavior. IMO.

Wow, a group of women who are desperate enough to go on TV to compete against each other for a man/fame/SM followers/opportunity/free-stuff don't get along? Color me shocked!

I have seen Vanessa on film in the episodes being snuggly with DLo, Corrine and Kristina. Clearly Vanessa had friends...particularly DaniM and Taylor. This is a competition among these women and Vanessa and Rachel are both strong personalities and clear frontrunners. I don't find it surprising that in that enviroment...this late in the game..things may have exploded. IMO the argument if shown would have most likely reflected poorly on BOTH of them. Since Rachel is the new Bachelorette....TPTB cannot show negative footage to tarnish her as they promote her casting IMO. If TPTB felt showing the clash would enhance Rachel's Bachelorette edit they would have aired it IMO. Anything the other women say about what happened is hearsay IMO.
Kristina acting rude toward Vanessa now on SM...says more about Kristina than Vanessa IMO...and not in a positive way. It all comes across to me as sour grapes and a petty cat fight.
The group of 7 as sleuthed on this forum seem to be acting like cliquish mean girls IMO. Add some others into the sore loser category and amplify it by the castoffs vying for a spot on BIP and IMO Vanessa has become their target.
JMO

I don't subscribe to herd mentality so I don't see the girls likes/comments to be proof that Vanessa rubbed a lot of girls the wrong way. We don't know if they did/said something first. It's a one-sided story coz CMIW Vanessa hasn't said anything yet about any drama in the house. IMO She is over it and is being a mature grown up adult about the whole situation.

IMO just because a few of them are saying it or implying it that Vanessa was the 'problem', it doesn't make it true. All JMO.

Seabear wrote:snipped

Since Rachel is the new Bachelorette....TPTB cannot show negative footage to tarnish her as they promote her casting IMO. If TPTB felt showing the clash would enhance Rachel's Bachelorette edit they would have aired it IMO.

This is exactly why I don't believe what RS or any of the biased girls are saying.

ITA and have no doubt in my mind that TPTB would have shown stuff for Rachel if it benefited her and shown her in a good light even more, no matter the expense of F1 or whomever else. That they didn't show it IMO was because they wanted to protect Rachael's edit and that suggests to me that if they had aired any conflict she would not have been seen in such a positive light and perhaps in a negative one for all we know.

This show has proven over and over again they are not in the business of protecting leads or contestants but what has been seen this season, IMO, TPTB did show Rachel in a pretty much solely positive light IMO and with their historic announcement of Rachel as Bette I can totally see why that is the case just like why they made the choice to announce her while she's on the show. They weren't leaving anything negative in, IMO, on her edit for a reason and they revealed that reason with their announcement of her as Bette.

A little personal story and bare with me because I'm going somewhere with this. I'm an introvert. It takes me awhile to warm up to people I've just met. As a result, I'm often wary of new people and tend to stick to myself until I warm up to them.

When I started a new job some years ago, I was always polite, but didn't engage in lunch time gossip and chatter and just quietly did what I had to do. When it came time for my review, my boss said that after talking to everyone, the response was that I was unapproachable, unfriendly and basically unlikable. Oh and I could tell there was a lot of whispering about me.

Someone who spoke to these people would say that almost everyone had a problem with me so clearly they couldn't all be wrong or clearly there was an issue. Except again, I had never said a single rude and unkind thing to anyone. Oh and yes, sadly to say, they were all women.

Here's my point, I have never bought into the notion that if everyone has an issue with someone then "well clearly there may be something wrong with that person". Sure there are instances where that is the case. But sometimes it isn't because sometimes, as human beings we are prone to cliquish behavior and group think.

Now I'm not saying that is what's happening here because that's just it, none of us knows what really happened. It's a lot of speculation, "wink, wink, nudge, nudge" comments, a lot of hearsay, a lot of commenting on things while refusing to be specific, etc. Me personally, I don't dislike any of these people. I do think some behavior has been slightly petty but whatever.

At the end of the day for me it's simply this. These people were all strangers, thrown into a weird and let's just be honest, frankly creepy situation. It's a twisted environment meant to breed drama, insecurity, jealousy, etc. In that environment of being total strangers to each other, they were all competing for one man. Nothing about this is normal. Nothing about it is reasonable. So if some unreasonable and not so great behavior and personality came out during it, I don't judge any of them for that.

However, they're now all out of the hamster wheel experience. There's no more manipulative handlers whispering into their ears and being cut off from family, friends and loved ones and more importantly, no more delusionally believing they're in love with Nick. In other words, no excuse for any questionable behavior.

So in other words, I judge actions after the show. And again, while I have seen some stuff I think is side-eye worthy and petty, I haven't seen anything to make me truly dislike anyone. Do I think people should move on, sure but I'll give some allowance to the fact that the show is currently airing so they're being asked about things.

But the point is, all I have seen from Vanessa post show is a woman who is living her life...period. She loves her family, her job and seems to quietly be going about her life. So I'm not interested in all the hearsay and gossip and wink, wink, nudge, nudge and the idea that well she clearly rubbed so many the wrong way, so that's telling. I don't agree.

I have seen nothing wrong with Vanessa and until such time as I do, I think some of the judgement against her have been unfair. And I especially think the constant bitch refrains that seem to suddenly be the thing on social media, is really unfair and out of line, IMO.

Lara wrote:
Who has implied it though? You have Kristina liking a tweet that called her a bully and a secret b*tch, but has there been anything else public? I haven't seen a single thing, besides that CFA convo where they didn't use names. And, I also don't see how Vanessa is getting any extreme hate. I've seen every other girl called much, much worse. I can't even repeat some of the things I've seen Rachel called, so I don't see her as this poor victim. IMO.

I also don't think Rachel was this sweet angel, but I believe her when she said she would leave the room when drama was taking place. You can tell that's true from how she talked to Corinne and Taylor before their 2-on-1, IMO.  So I don't believe she was the instigator here. From her saying "that's so fake" in that promo, I'm guessing it was about Vanessa badmouthing her behind her back and being sweet to her face, IMO. That's allegedly what happened with DLo and what happened with Corinne, so that's my theory. IMO. I haven't see any of the other girls exhibit any bad behavior post-season, besides Kristina; I do agree that Kristina shouldn't have hung out with Vanessa if she didn't like her behavior. IMO.

Rachel's "that's so fake" outfit was matched to be the one she was wearing on her date and when she was consoling Kristina. I highly doubt between her date and Kristina leaving, Rachel had the time to bring up Vanessa and the fight. I don't see Rachel being self-obsessed enough to bring up a fight she had while consoling her heart-broken friend. All JMO.

coolangel wrote:

Lara wrote:
Who has implied it though? You have Kristina liking a tweet that called her a bully and a secret b*tch, but has there been anything else public? I haven't seen a single thing, besides that CFA convo where they didn't use names. And, I also don't see how Vanessa is getting any extreme hate. I've seen every other girl called much, much worse. I can't even repeat some of the things I've seen Rachel called, so I don't see her as this poor victim. IMO.

I also don't think Rachel was this sweet angel, but I believe her when she said she would leave the room when drama was taking place. You can tell that's true from how she talked to Corinne and Taylor before their 2-on-1, IMO.  So I don't believe she was the instigator here. From her saying "that's so fake" in that promo, I'm guessing it was about Vanessa badmouthing her behind her back and being sweet to her face, IMO. That's allegedly what happened with DLo and what happened with Corinne, so that's my theory. IMO. I haven't see any of the other girls exhibit any bad behavior post-season, besides Kristina; I do agree that Kristina shouldn't have hung out with Vanessa if she didn't like her behavior. IMO.

Rachel's "that's so fake" outfit was matched to be the one she was wearing on her date and when she was consoling Kristina. I highly doubt between her date and Kristina leaving, Rachel had the time to bring up Vanessa and the fight. I don't see Rachel being self-obsessed enough to bring up a fight she had while consoling her heart-broken friend. All JMO.

Oh, really? I didn't notice. So, maybe she was referring to Nick then. I still think that's likely what happened though, just based on the pattern. IMO.

There was also that promo from the Wisconsin date where she was saying "what the eff does that even mean" that I always thought was targeted at Taylor and Vanessa, because Astrid said she had a disagreement with Taylor in that episode and that matches what RS said. I do think that their issue had been building up for a while. IMO.