Nick Viall - Bachelor 21 - Episode 2 Jan 9th - *Sleuthing Spoilers*

I agree that it would be nice to see something new, but if these people didn't make asses of themselves, then producers wouldn't be shoving them down our throats constantly. Like I said before, you can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink. They are so blinded by fame and easy money that they sell their souls and their dignity to the devil. Just reading that contract should scare the living daylights out of them and make them realise what they will be in for, or just watch the show. I'd be running in the opposite direction.

@dina Kaitlyn herself admitted on national TV that she had sex with Nick, and later defended herself against slutshaming. She told Shawn and everyone else during the epi that her and Nick had sex. So whatever info you have, that's your choice to believe. I'm going to believe what Kaitlyn admitted it herself and for weeks later during media tours consistently felt  she did nothing wrong by having sex.

This gif says it all IMO. You can edit this stuff. This is her personality. Go to the link.

The BachelorVerified account
‏@BachelorABC
Let's zoom in on the person that's probably "not here to make friends."
#TheBachelor
:Nick:

https://twitter.com/BachelorABC/status/818629071471083520

Kashathediva wrote:I don't think the idea of making the season's focus too sexual can be placed solely at production or Nick's feet. I think most of that blame lays at the feet of the women who brought it up--Liz and Corrine.  
When Corrine took her top off what was Nick supposed to do? I guess he could have grabbed something and joked that no wife of his was going to do that on tv and try to look gallant, but wouldn't that have been worse to humiliate Corrine with her lack of good decision making?
I think he handled Liz pretty well. The only way I see that being handled better is if she had chosen not to be on the show.

So it was better to humiliate the other 11 women on the date by condoning (and rewarding!) her behavior?  

Somehow I suspect that spoiled brat Corinne doesn't humiliate very easily.  In fact, if he had scolded her, maybe it would have taught her a valuable lesson that it appears she has yet to learn from her parents.

I agree that he handled the Liz situation well.

So just watched and yeah the train wreck came early this year. Corrine. Yikes AND he gave her the rose. Come on nick. At least he sent Liz packing. But Corrine got old real fast and it is only episode two! And to be continued, already?! My only other complaint is Dani's date was what five minutes? Geez. Worst episode I've seen in a longtime. Try harder, Mike. F. Please, for me.

I don't think Nick humiliated the other women by condoning and rewarding Corinne's behaviour. Aside from the fact that I seriously doubt that he had any control of who was getting that rose, her behaviour is a reflection on her and Nick himself looked pretty uncomfortable. He has to play along as the Bachelor. It's his job and he, better than anyone knows how editing can mess with people and how good tv is made. He is aware Corinne is good for the watercooler talk the next day. Doesn't mean he liked it. The fact that she never gets a 1:1 speaks volumes. True, the women won't know that, but perhaps they should talk to him about it if they have an issue. Apparently Vanessa does that next week. If it truly is that offensive to them, they can always leave, but I suspect the call of being on tv or future shilling opportunities overrides any objections they may have.

^^ @Sprite, I will agree to disagree.  I will agree that the rose choice is producer-driven (half of the BachNation blogs are saying the same). Whether that is true (producer-induced action) or not, I will disagree that it does not degrade Nick's integrity nor debase the other women's sense of self worth.  However, I will give Nick a pass that it's early on and he is figuring out when or how to pick his battles with TPTB.  IMHO, Nick is careful not to antagonize TPTB so much that it seems as if these earlier episodes are turning out to be too much pro-TPTB.  I hope he turns it around quick because it doesn't look good.  As to Corrine, if she is ignored - she MAY behave better (this is why I think Nick has some culpability in encouraging Corrine's behavior - a rose is a validation he could have said no). But, it's a gray area as I feel as if Nick is still stuck between a rock and TPTB.  

I do agree with you about the plot this season.  The storyline for Nick is mapped out. "Guy with a bad rap/past who will redeem himself with the help of a good woman? But may also dig himself in a deeper hole with the help of Corrine?"   So bad behavior is encouraged early, and the winner is the one who will help turn him/it around.  Although the actions/reactions are real - the plot is scripted and I am so gullible. I'm just going to watch what grows out of this petri dish.

Catdwoman50 wrote:^^ @Sprite, I will agree to disagree.  I will agree that the rose choice is producer-driven (half of the BachNation blogs are saying the same). Whether that is true (producer-induced action) or not, I will disagree that it does not degrade Nick's integrity nor debase the other women's sense of self worth.  However, I will give Nick a pass that it's early on and he is figuring out when or how to pick his battles with TPTB.  IMHO, Nick is careful not to antagonize TPTB so much that it seems as if these earlier episodes are turning out to be too much pro-TPTB.  I hope he turns it around quick because it doesn't look good.  As to Corrine, if she is ignored - she MAY behave better (this is why I think Nick has some culpability in encouraging Corrine's behavior - a rose is a validation he could have said no). But, it's a gray area as I feel as if Nick is still stuck between a rock and TPTB.  

I do agree with you about the plot this season.  The storyline for Nick is mapped out. "Guy with a bad rap/past who will redeem himself with the help of a good woman? But may also dig himself in a deeper hole with the help of Corrine?"   So bad behavior is encouraged early, and the winner is the one who will help turn him/it around.  Although the actions/reactions are real - the plot is scripted and I am so gullible. I'm just going to watch what grows out of this petri dish.

I think Nick's integrity was an issue from all his previous appearances so I don't really think anything else he does is going to change it one way or another. Fans are going to still love him and those who are not fans are still going to hate. That is just Nick and why I think they picked him....some are waiting for him to fail while others are waiting for that full redemption.

Speaking for myself, my self worth is never going to be based on what other people think or do. Nick can grope as many women in front of me as he wants, doesn't change what I think of myself. It might change what I think of him...if that was real life, but since it's the Bachelor and I know how things work, doesn't change that either.

ironcat wrote:

Kashathediva wrote:I don't think the idea of making the season's focus too sexual can be placed solely at production or Nick's feet. I think most of that blame lays at the feet of the women who brought it up--Liz and Corrine.  
When Corrine took her top off what was Nick supposed to do? I guess he could have grabbed something and joked that no wife of his was going to do that on tv and try to look gallant, but wouldn't that have been worse to humiliate Corrine with her lack of good decision making?
I think he handled Liz pretty well. The only way I see that being handled better is if she had chosen not to be on the show.

So it was better to humiliate the other 11 women on the date by condoning (and rewarding!) her behavior?  

Somehow I suspect that spoiled brat Corinne doesn't humiliate very easily.  In fact, if he had scolded her, maybe it would have taught her a valuable lesson that it appears she has yet to learn from her parents.

I agree that he handled the Liz situation well.

The other women on that date were victims of being passive participants, they were not involved in the behavior, either the one perpetrating it or the one on the receiving end. It is unfortunate they had to witness that. It was like rubber necking at the site of an accident. You can't really look away for long. It was unfortunate we had to witness it.
But, no, I still feel Nick had 2 choices. The first to cover her up or in some way, shape or form showing displeasure toward her behavior, which would have shamed her or to let it go.
Yes, I see where the second indicates that he condones it. Personally, I don't think he cares. I believe with the other posters that TPTB encouraged reward by rose and stirring the pot.

If it had been in seasons past where he was pursuing the lead, I would have shouted "No Nick No!" You can't be there just to get the girl according to the audience. But now I really just grin about it. Yes, I've read he's getting skewered now because of TPTB choice of group date rose. Heck, I don't care if it was solely HIS choice. I only care that he's now the lead and HE GETS THE GIRL he wanted   if I am to believe that big beautiful smile on Vanessa's IG. She lived this journey and seems pretty happy about it, IMO.

Kashathediva wrote:

ironcat wrote:

Kashathediva wrote:I don't think the idea of making the season's focus too sexual can be placed solely at production or Nick's feet. I think most of that blame lays at the feet of the women who brought it up--Liz and Corrine.  
When Corrine took her top off what was Nick supposed to do? I guess he could have grabbed something and joked that no wife of his was going to do that on tv and try to look gallant, but wouldn't that have been worse to humiliate Corrine with her lack of good decision making?
I think he handled Liz pretty well. The only way I see that being handled better is if she had chosen not to be on the show.

So it was better to humiliate the other 11 women on the date by condoning (and rewarding!) her behavior?  

Somehow I suspect that spoiled brat Corinne doesn't humiliate very easily.  In fact, if he had scolded her, maybe it would have taught her a valuable lesson that it appears she has yet to learn from her parents.

I agree that he handled the Liz situation well.

The other women on that date were victim of being a passive participant, they were not involved in the behavior, either the one perpetrating it or the one on the receiving end. It is unfortunate they had to witness that. It was unfortunate we had to witness it.
But, no, I still feel Nick had 2 choices. The first to cover her up or in some way, shape or form showing displeasure toward her behavior, which would have shamed her or to let it go.
Yes, I see where the second indicates that he condones it. Personally, I don't think he cares. I believe with the other posters that TPTB encouraged reward by rose and stirring the pot.

IA with your point re: potentially shaming Corrine. I've seen some people post that Nick should have scolded Corrine for taking her top off, and I don't think it's Nick's place to do that as a man -- bachelor or not. It's demeaning. Corrine made a choice to take her top off, and people can be displeased by her behaviour and her views on sexuality; but I don't think the "right" thing to do was for a man to publicly scold her. It's infantilizing, regardless of our personal opinions on Corrine's level of maturity. She's still a woman and still has agency over her body.

That being said, I don't think Nick's response was A-OK either. In that situation, he was probably better off engaging in the photo shoot but politely refusing to heed Corrine's request. From what I saw, it looked like he was put on the spot, and he made a rash decision that was disrespectful to the other women. I mean, for someone who can be overly analytical, Nick can sometimes say and do pretty impulsive things. Hopefully, he realizes the error of his ways when certain women confront him in the coming weeks. But until then -- until women challenge him and bring up this problem to him face-to-face -- then they're kind of going along with his behaviour and his choices. If the producers are going for this redemptive edit, it's going to be the outspoken Vanessas and Ravens that trigger the shift in the story, which is why I'm looking forward to this cast of contestants narrowing down.

Now if Nick allows things to progress too far in Bimini when she visits his room, I'll be the first to say...NO! I'll reserve judgement for now.

@crunchycheeto Yes, ITA with this. I think Nick is impulsive far more than he is analytical. Not that he isn't analytical, I think he is analytical when he chooses to think about things and pause first rather than react, especially as it concerns others vs himself. I do not think it's first nature for him, imo. It's almost as if he has to deliberately pause before he shoot/fires prior to ready and aiming. So when it comes to him, MO, is that often he is more impulsive first. The analytical Nick to me is more often in response to others or in retrospect to his own behaviors as second nature.