Bachelor 21 - Nick Viall - Episode Discussion - **NO SPOILERS** - *SLEUTHING* DISCUSSION

I have been lurking in this section, but never posted since I always watch the show several days afterwards. Better late than never.

I  think Andi is there just to stir things up a bit (and to promote herself of course). Maybe just to spook Nick, maybe to cause drama with the women by acting as his “advisor” or something. More like Jake Pavelka showing up at JoJo’s night 1 than Nick’s own appearance on Kaitlyn’s season. They probably sent a cab to pick her up, whisked her though the back door and had her home again before midnight.

Nick would be an idiot if he couldn’t distinguish Vanessa from Andi. One of them clearly has a heart and the other one doesn’t (IMO). With that said, there are definitely similarities like JBF says. From Vanessa’s IG (spoiler free, but I avoid the comments) she has a funny goofy side that we haven’t seen much of, so I’d say she also has some similarities to Kaitlyn. Yet she is so much better than both of them. Don’t screw this up, Nick!

For Vanessa to be so upset to hear that he asked the other dads, she must have been very sure that she is F1 (but also very much in “the bubble”). We have hardly heard them talk, apart from their dates. At the pool party though, when she confronted him, he said something along the lines of “Keep hitting me in the face when I need it, but try to be a little patient, especially about Corinne.” I think he has been assuring her every step of the way, but obviously they couldn’t show that.
I still believe she is the one, unless she self-destructs, or the issue with where to live becomes too big.

Raven is great, and they are getting closer and closer, but I still wonder how serious he is about her. She is the easy one to be with, and the one to could most easily relocate to LA I think. She is my second choice.
The talk with the parents was mostly about her dad’s recovery, and while it was gripping, I also feel that should have happened off camera.

I think (hope) that Corinne is done now. She got what she came for, and the producers got to show us Raquel. Nick had a great time being Pretty Woman for a day and spend an obscene amount of money, probably taken from the stores’ marketing budgets, but that was basically it. Oh, and he got some fine Scotch while the dad jovially emasculated him. It made me think of Sopranos.
Corinne wouldn’t mind moving to LA or wherever there is good shopping and her platinum card works, but I don’t think she will be asked (and I don’t believe for a second that she does any real work in the family business).

Rachel, well we know what will happen, so they didn’t bother to show much of their connection this time. It was all about laying the groundwork for the first black bachelorette. It is probably necessary  to do that, and a revolution for the franchise, but It has little impact on the current season.

All JMO.

You know I am mostly joking about Nick getting Vanessa and Andi confused. At least partly.

I think Corrine deserves at least one shopping trip to Rodeo Drive for all of the "drama" she provided this snoozefest.

JBF wrote:You know I am mostly joking about Nick getting Vanessa and Andi confused. At least partly.

I think Corrine deserves at least one shopping trip to Rodeo Drive for all of the "drama" she provided this snoozefest.

Oh I knew that.
He definitely has a type though.

Corinne can go to Rodeo Drive whenever she wants. She will get her reward in Paradise (wow that sounded morbid ).
I honestly think that the contrived drama and endless repetitions from her just blocked the view of some more interesting and real interactions.

I think that Vanessa's mini temper-tantrums come from her heart being thoroughly entangled with Nick's. She can't stand the uncertainty of not yet having the ring on her finger. I still think she's the clear leader in his affections, but I'm not entirely counting out Raven or Corinne. A part of me thinks that Raven would be a better match for him, and Corinne would be a more fun companion, but he seems to have a "type," and Vanessa is the closest match of this group.

IMO Andi is just there to create some producer-induced drama. I think that she and Nick are both over each other. It will be interesting to see Nick's reaction, however, and he may see some similarities between Andi and Vanessa.

This episode was so pointless. Let me count the ways...

1.) What was Andi doing on the show? I guess to get "closure" from After The Final Rose "Why did you make love with me" Drama two years ago.

2.) Since they already advertised Rachel as next Bachelorette, we all know she is not Nick's chosen. With that in mind, I found this line most amusing. "I would be devastated if I went home... *pause*... tonight." Why the pause? Me thinks she is just aiming for one more free vacay before getting her own 25 stallions next season. I now suspect she's F3 and Raven is top 2.

3.) They show preview footage of Raven in Finland BEFORE the rose ceremony. Talk about leaving nothing to the speculative imagination!

4.) Andi talked about sex with Nick during her visit. Raven said she hadn't experienced the Big O (like our beloved Trista on her fantasy date with Alex in Bach season 1). Nick told Corrine that she had "no regrets" getting dumped. Yet there is one. She was denied earlier using her special behind-closed-doors credit card!

5.) Nick was more scripted this episode than any other. He was certainly reading cue cards. Was there anything he said that we didn't hear in previous seasons?

6.) Rachel looked very sexy and svelte with her low shoulder baring top. Yet what was this turtle neck sweater business with Nick? I remember ages and ages ago, Bachelorette Meredith wearing turtle necks with everybody but Ian (her F1). Turtle neck = please don't bite my neck.

7.) Paraphrasing what Raven says (give or take a word): "Nick makes me feel really safe and that is a key element for making me open up." Ummm... no comment.

8.) On the plus side, Nick is debating whether or not to go "all the way" with his ladies. Thus, we close with him doing his boxing routines and chopping wood.

Well, I made it through most, but not quite all of last night's episode. Here are some thoughts --

I enjoyed seeing them in Brooklyn. I lived in Brooklyn quite some time ago, in a far less glamorous-looking part of town. Nick's hotel room must have cost the show a pretty penny.

Andi -- her visit with Nick seemed more a matter of clearing the air between them than in giving any real advice. I didn't feel any spark between them, nor any loathing. For lack of a better word, it almost felt like they were friends, or could be. Nick has grown a lot since his time with her, and it showed in his responses.

The women -- They all looked good. I especially liked Vanessa's gown. I felt for them, having to wait in the cold. NYC can get bitterly cold when the wind is blowing. I was not really surprised that Nick cut Corinne. I was rather expecting it, although it's hard to know which way the F4 will go (with the exception that I still see Vanessa as F1.) I've come to like Corinne. I feel that she handled herself well afterward. I liked the spirit she showed in the limo.

Finland -- I enjoy this show best when they send everyone around the world. Finland was a great pick. I'm enjoying seeing everyone in parkas after several weeks of beach time. Raven seemed very nervous to me, which is understandable. I liked their date.

Hopefully you will make it through all of the show since this episode was only half as long as the others. I know it is a painful ordeal, but at least it is a little easier than climbing Mt. Everest. Nick was so robotic and I don't know why. There were a few moments when I thought he would repeat the same line three times in the same breath and a stage-hand would have to push his back button to make him stop. Maybe he needed some sort of, I dunno, enhancement medication? Or maybe they gave it to him already and that was why he was energetically chopping wood in the final reel.  

Like you, I think Vanessa is F1. However I would rather it be Raven at this point. Even though he was especially robotic around her, her departure will be harder to take than Vanessa's. That is, if it actually happens. I shouldn't rule her out just yet, given that she is lasting a LOT longer on this show than I expected. She has been quite the Energizer Bunny whom I initially expected to go before Danielle M.

Looking back at the family hometowns in hindsight, he did look happiest on hers and Corrine's. Less so on Rachel's and Vanessa's. I think Raven is the best match of the three. Her edit doesn't "feel" like a winner though. I guess Vanessa's doesn't either since she has spent half of her screen time Nick-picking. Me fears that the Nick/Vanessa honeymoon may not last as long once it dawns on him that she expects more than a microwaveable dinner.

Already the promos are giving us the "why" Rachel won't last. Despite all of the "passion" both she and Nick bragged about in earlier dates, he's telling her she is not relaxing enough. Echoes of Bachelorette Ashley when she was with Bachelor Brad Womack.

Ha! It's not the show, it's me, JBF. I'm up at 5:00 (or earlier) every working day, and deal with a room full of lively 8-year olds. These days, staying awake past 8:30 P.M. is a roll of the dice.

If I had to pick for Nick, I would pick Raven as well. Here's why -- Nick is most attracted to what I would call high-maintenance women. He wants someone lively, someone who will challenge him and keep him on his toes. *But*  -- I'm not convinced this type of relationship will be best for him in the long run. It may blow up in his face. Raven is the best of both worlds. She is lively and has a strong personality, but at the same time she has a laid back part of her. She would keep him interested but not wear him out. My feeling about a possible Nick/Vanessa match is that it would eventually self-implode. My take on Vanessa is that she is over the moon for Nick at this point of the show. But what about when the honeymoon subsides, and the garbage must be taken out, and the dishes rinsed and put in the dishwasher?

I think that Corinne might have been an interesting match for him as well. He would have had a massively good time with her. She would have been fiercely loyal to him. IMO Rachel was never going to happen for him. That became abundantly clear to me at hometowns.

If he feels that Rachel is not relaxing enough for him, what the heck is he going to feel about Vanessa as time goes on, should she be his pick?

It is a no-brainer that Rachel is gone next week and sitting in Mister Harrison's hot seat. I mean... why would we bother watching the grand finale if she was in the top two, after Entertainment Weekly already spill the beans of her upcoming season?

You know... Raven probably is F1 after all. I just have been blinded by already dumped Danielle and constantly-in-our-faces Vanessa. I almost forgot that he already introduced Raven to one member of his family, Bella (the one who "interviewed" Andi two years ago). Although Vanessa is not Andi's twin sister, despite me frequently getting them confused , I think their personalities are closer than Raven's is with both of them. Vanessa is merely the "type" we expect him to choose. Oh I am sure Nick will be undecided until the final moment, but I am slowly gaining this curious feeling that Vanessa will be the first out of the limo (or plane or reindeer carriage) at Final Rose Ceremony time. Then she will slap him across the face after he says "my heart went somewhere else".

One possible deciding factor in Raven's chances as a "future wife": that "O" she has long waited for. Even if she doesn't experience it in the Fantasy Suite, there is still Last Chance Date. Hey! It worked for Jilli Bean and Eddie back in Hawaii many seasons ago. (*insert volcano eruption here*)

Went back to Raven's solo date pre-hometowns. She also has a love theme "golden oldie" that matches Elton John with Roberto/Ali and REO Speedwagon with Ashley/JP (also set to roller skates!), among others. Not that we can always go by that as a F1 indicator, since some dumpees also get songs. (*cough cough* Luke/JoJo)

Sixpence None The Richer - "Kiss Me" (1997): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8N-qO3sPMjc

Yeah... it took this loooooong without some "spoiler" to battle on The Dark Side and, no, I still don't know who is the "spoiled" one. Yet here is my final pecking order:

1-Raven
2-Vanessa
3-Rachel

At this point, I see it as:

1. Vanessa
2. Raven
3. Rachel

That is great! We need different pecking orders here. Actually I was with you earlier, but I am second guessing now. Since I was focused on Danielle for way too long, you may actually "win" this. I often get distracted from the main highway.

Anyhoo...

On the wedding date, Raven jokes about always being the bridesmaid.

Nick: "My relationship with Raven didn't kick off initially. She was somebody who flew under the radar in the beginning, but once we built that really great connection, it has been the relationship that has probably been moving at the fastest pace."

Ssssoooooo... the key theme of Nick/Raven is "I didn't expect this".

Of course, her brother the cop was "unexpected" when they climbed the grain bin.
Raven (after learning dad is cancer free): "I didn't expect to be crying right off the bat"
Rachel to Mommy Tracy: "I was worried that he was going to be arrogant and I was so surprised" (a.k.a. I wasn't expecting this)
Daddy Wes to Nick: "I am going to be really frank. I didn't expect... don't take this wrong... but I didn't expect to like yah"

Wes also says in his PI session: "There is always a chance that relationships won't work out, but I feel like there's a good possibility that it could be Nick that I hand her off to, so... we will have to wait and see."

Yup, we will have to wait and see.

The Women Tell Nothing show was... OK. I mean, there wasn't anything new apart from Kristina's departure being viewed more teary than the two Danielles. Not that Danielle L. couldn't manage a good cry thinking of hers. The whole Corrine/Taylor battle had long run its course. That was all noise for me.

Rachel was well rehearsed in her lines, being happy to be Bachelorette. Yet I was surprised at how much "chemistry" was shown on her earlier fantasy date. Of course, she and Vanessa are shown semi-undressed in their "morning after" scenes with shirtless Nick. To the casual viewer, the overall impression is that Nick had more interest in those two than Raven despite sparing Raven for the top two.

The promos for next week show more conflict with Vanessa. On their fantasy date (when not braving the ice and sauna), they are debating her strong "core values" and family life. Then, in a quick switch, she instantly goes into her voice-over/interview soliloquy about wanting to spend the rest of her life with him. She alternates back and forth between being overly concerned about their differences and being high on rose-colored moonbeams. She needs to make up her mind. I am getting exhausted.

The promos are rather suggestive of Vanessa being The One, but there are some coy edits of Raven shown during key Nick voice-overs regarding  his concerns about how "she" feels for him. This makes me again suspicious that Raven is our "gotcha" F1 that Bachelor Nation does not see coming, while most are focused on the will-they-succeed-or-not saga that involves Vanessa. Chris Harrison gave us three choices at the end: Raven, Vanessa or nobody. My guess is that many viewers are thinking Vanessa or nobody because of how much less screen time Raven gets in the preview.