Bachelor 21 - Nick Viall - Episode Discussion - **NO SPOILERS** - *SLEUTHING* DISCUSSION

There are definitely 3 left. I threw in towel because I had thought our next Bachelorette was f1. **edited**

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You know, it just dawned on me -- Rachel is probably not F2. I say that because ABC would likely want to retain some sense of tension/mystery over the final two. I don't think they would have announced her as Bachelorette if she were any higher than F3. For awhile now, I've felt that only Vanessa and Rachel had formed the strongest connections with Nick. But now I think that either Raven or Corinne will come in at F2.

So here's my latest guess: F1: Vanessa, F2: Raven, F3: Rachel, F4: Corinne.

Rachel is also being promoted on the last page of the current Entertainment Weekly. There is no hiding from this spoiler.

I finally watched last week's episode in its entirety. One thing that struck me is that in his conversations with the women about hometowns, Nick seemed to me to be very certain about visiting Rachel's home. He seemed to be more equivocal about visiting Danielle M. I understand why Nick released Danielle M., but I was sorry to see her go. I like her and I think she's gorgeous.

I like Nick. I like how he handled sending Kristina home. But one complaint I have about how he's handled this season is in sending women home directly from their dates. I want to tell him, let them have that one day. Don't spoil the memory of it for them. For many of the women, this may be one of the nicest dates or biggest adventures they ever go out on. Let them have that. You can always tell them at the rose ceremony.

I find it interesting how Nick has used his one-on-ones. In some cases, he seems to use them to get to know his favorites better (Vanessa, Rachel, Raven.) In others he seems to use them to finalize his decision to eliminate women about whom he is uncertain (the second 1-on-1s for both Danielles.)

I find Corinne less offensive than I did earlier in the season. I don't know if she's any different or if she's just getting a better edit. I still don't see what Nick sees, however. I do find it rather strange that Nick is giving her a hometown without having a previous one-on-one. Watching her continuing disappointment has humanized her for me. In her shoes, I might be tempted to make an early exit at the rose ceremony. But I get that she likely has her reasons for staying.

I still see Vanessa as the frontrunner. Raven was a dark horse for me earlier in the season, and I still think she could sneak up from behind.

Gee, am I the only one un-spoiled now and commenting on this thread?

Before Andi arrived in our "to be continued" climax, I was struggling with Nick on all of his hometown dates. That guy wasn't showing all that much affection with any of his ladies. Also ALL four were saying they may get... now, everybody drink from their glasses in unison... "heart broken".

Gotta hand it to Vanessa being so direct-to-the-point regarding Nick asking permission from each family about proposing and putting her own daddy on the spot. Oh... I am starting to like Vanessa all the more as time progresses. She's a fire cracker.

Yet Nick may still be in love with Andi. Funny how Vanessa actually resembles her in both hair style and snarky personality. It is as if Vanessa reminds him of The Ghost. It is intriguing how we see Vanessa last arriving in New York City just before The Ghost materializes at his hotel door...

@JBF no worries. @Amethyst also posted.

I'm enjoying reading posts in here.

I'm here, JBF. I fell asleep during the very last part of the show, so I was a bit reluctant to comment as yet. (It's not the show, it's me! I teach young children all day, and they wear me out.) But I saw enough of Vanessa's hometown, so I'll throw my two cents in.

First, the families were all welcoming and lovely. Every season I admire how the families open their homes and hearts to a would-be suitor and the glare of the TV cameras. Kudos to them.

I was reflecting last night how it really doesn't matter how I feel hometowns went. Because if Nick has a frontrunner (Vanessa?) then he's going to think her hometown was the best. But from a purely objective point of view, I will rank them as to how I saw them, from best (1) to "worst" (4.)

1. Raven -- I enjoyed the simplicity of her hometown date. I loved her parents and I thought her brother was a hoot. Her parents didn't make a big deal out of her prospective choice, essentially saying that if it works for Raven, it works for them. I appreciated that, and I think Nick did as well. I could easily see Raven handing off her business to some hired help and moving to L.A. if the stars align her way.

2. Corinne -- I *loved, loved, loved* the shopping trip. What fun! I enjoyed her family and the infamous Raquel. I thought that her dad raised some good issues with the proposal that Corrine could ultimately be the top breadwinner in the family. He seemed remarkably accepting of that possibility. I was touched by their observation that Corinne has never looked so happy. I could see Nick fitting in quite nicely with their aspirational, luxurious, urban sky-rise lifestyle. Could Corrine work remotely from L.A.? Or would Nick be willing to move to Miami? I could see this relationship possibly working.

3. Vanessa -- Her family members are decent, lovely people, but I didn't see a fit there despite expecting to. I don't see Nick as the type to sit down to dinner every Sunday with a large group of family members. Maybe once a month or once every now and then, but every Sunday? He doesn't seem like the type. There is close and then there is smothering. Vanessa would most likely be the one to move. I think it would be very difficult yanking her out of her Italian, Quebecois lifestyle. Granted, a credentialed Special Educator can work pretty much anywhere, even across borders, but would she want to? I think she's head-over-heels for Nick. Can love overcome so many obstacles?

4. Rachel -- Rachel gave Nick a good dose of reality by taking him to her church. Although Nick was certainly game, he seemed very uncomfortable to me during this visit. The intense vetting and questioning carried out by Rachel's family, although certainly reasonable, didn't help. IMO he made up his mind on this hometown that Rachel would definitely not be his F1.

A couple observations to add to yours, Amethyst. Ha ha! You know I can't keep it all brief.

He definitely looked happiest on Corrine's hometown. I think he and Daddy got along great even if he is from The Poor Side Of Town. I think Corrine is the one remaining contestant who isn't so dominant over him, always taking the lead. Well... except when they go shopping for clothes. Yet look at the others: Raven got him into trouble with police brother, forcing him to sport the "but she made me do it" expression on his face. Rachel took him kicking and screaming to church, although he insisted he liked it despite looking so sheepish. Vanessa was pretty much lecturing him like her students.

Vanessa's mother family reminded me a little of Nick's hometown in Andi's season... and Brooks' in Desie's. One full house. I am not sure if his "discomfort" there was genuine. He likes lots of faces at the dinner table. Her daddy's situation, with just the two of them, was more awkward. Even though I am still struggling with the Vanessa/Nick "love story" (if there is one), I wouldn't completely rule her out as a potential F1 since I have noticed the trend of recent seasons is to make the F1's hometown seem the most awkward. Remember how JoJo spent Jordan's talking endlessly about the invisible brother who wasn't there?

What made me laugh about Vanessa is that she kept insisting that she has the strongest connection, but is lacking confidence once it dawned on her that he is "proposing" to each family. I guess at this point, I should throw in the towel and say either she or Andi the Dorf is his final lady because those are the two most aggressive ladies he ever "dated". Also they look enough alike that I was never sure who was who in the previews. Those shoes Andi was strutting through the hotel lobby had some pretty mean heels on them!

Nick doesn't strike me as the type to spend his Sundays in church, although it seems that he was raised that way. My memory may be faulty, but I seem to remember a certain level of awkwardness in his hometown during Andi's season. I remember the family visit being more relaxed the second time around with Kaitlyn. I'm hoping that Rachel's family will be a little more chill should they meet her suitors during her season.

Nick's background is Italian, right? So I figured he would be an easy fit with Vanessa's family, but I wasn't feeling it. Perhaps if he chooses her, his comfort level will increase with time.

No, I don't think Nick is the church going type either, but I am sure he doesn't complain when his family forces him to. As I recall, he took Andi to the brewery in Milwaukee. Wasn't she wearing a block of Wisconsin Cheddar on her head?

My "vibe" is that Rachel needs a guy who is more outgoing, somebody she can talk sarcastic with. She needs a lot of mental stimulation.

This is why I screwed up this season by focusing a little too much on Danielle M. I felt her relationship with Nick seemed different than the others. It definitely was, but just not in a good way. She was a little like Nick, expecting the other to start the conversation. Both need somebody more outgoing.

Also, correcting what I suggested above, I really only see Raven as aggressive in an Arkansas Dirt Devil Driver sort of way. Otherwise, I don't think she has any more of a chance than Danielle did earlier.

Even though Corrine seems the least aggressive to me, she was, after all, literally on top of him in their pool party inflatable jungle gym many episodes ago. Problem with her is that she is still too young for him.

I am still struggling to see Nick and Vanessa lasting long post-show. This is why I am wondering if Andi really does upset the apple cart. I still remember Nick's first solo date with Andi on her season and all of the dogs being shown walking on leashes. I didn't know if the editors were suggesting something about that relationship.

I'm here!!!  

I am still unspoiled, yet strangely (or not) unmotivated and apathetic about the season. Even watching with my daughter has not been as fun this year. Either I'm getting too bored with the premise or there is not much substance to be had this season. Because I love this stupid show, I choose to go with the latter.

I usually love HTDs. I was eagerly anticipating them. Then I was completely not entertained at all. The drama was scripted and predictable. Either Vanessa was it from the get go, and they scrambled to make a show around his inability to act interested in anyone else or there was no (drink) connection at all and they scrambled to make a show around his inability to act interested in anyone.

My daughter and I picked Vanessa night one. We think it's too formulaic at this point, but maybe we'll be pleasantly surprised. I honestly have no horse in this race, because I just don't feel that invested for the first time in quite a while.

I'm bored. Almost enough to go to the dark side. But not yet. I like the thrill of the chase and the unexpected. I'll stay here with you two. Even if three's a crowd!

Good news. The whole Andi "surprise" has me thinking that this season may actually have a "twist" of sorts. If nothing else, we now at least (temporarily) have TWO possible "final ones", assuming most of us have given up on Raven and Corrine's chances after Rachel was announced in HUGE neon lights as the new Bachelorette.

Yeah yeah. It could be that Andi only appears for five minutes of screen time to ask Nick "May I have 15 minutes more of fame, then you can finish your show with Vanessa?"

Then again... ??????

I was googling unrelated stuff and stumbled on some minor "dark side" fluff of an interviewed Josh Murray being, y'know... "right on, Man!" about any possible Nick/Andi relationship in the future. After all, we got more than enough "closure" on Bachelor In Paradise in case Bachelor Nation had any doubts, with Josh too busy submerged underneath Amanda in make out sessions. Even so, it is sssssooooo nice to have HIS blessing!

I also find it very odd how hidden she was up until now. (Well, for those of us unspoiled, that is.) When Deanna re-appeared on Jason's season, she was a fixture in all of his episode 1 seasonal promos, suggesting to fans he might dump all of the other ladies for her. (Instead he just dumped Melissa for Molly.) Nick himself hogged up half of Kaitlyn's promos even though he didn't arrive until episode 4 or 5 (I can't remember). This is the usual pattern: promote any popular contestant from the past in a new season. Even Becca Tilley got more footage in Ben Higgin's season than practically anybody else. The only previous time either a boomerang or returnee was this hidden was in Jillian's season. They blackened out any shots of Ed that appeared later in the season so viewers would think his departure "for work reasons" was permanent.

I suspected that mystery brunette in the preview shown two episodes ago was Andi, but wasn't exactly sure.

Poor Vanessa. Going through old footage, I am surprised at how frequently she says "I am getting fed up". She said that three times during the volleyball game. She was equally disgruntled during his obsession with Corrine episodes earlier. She was upset because she poured her heart out to Nick and failed to get any reassurance on her last solo date before hometowns. Then, right before Andi's appearance, we viewers think she is about to talk to Nick about not being sure of her status and think that is her marching through the hotel corridor in those high heels... until surprise! I will give her credit: she is a fighter!

We viewers can easily distinguish Vanessa from Andi, but can Nick? Both are highly intelligent and quite "take charge" professional brunettes. I think Ben had an easier time distinguishing between Haley and Emily.

This reminds me. Another Haley (actually Hailey), long gone many episodes back, came from Vancouver at the other end of Vanessa's country. She was shown in her introduction video chit-chatting with fellow Canadian Daniel (whom we couldn't get enough of on BiP a.k.a. "the Canadian Eagle has landed"). He warns: "If he doesn't fall in love this time around, he had better give up on women."