The Bachelorette - Season 12 - JoJo Fletcher - General Discussion - *Sleuthing - Spoilers* - #3

Awww... thanks for the support, Columbia, MD!

HEA wrote:@JBF it is always a pleasure to read your analysis. I can feel there is no passion about one or the other that this is what makes it interesting.

One note:
Alex talks about Chad in a clip intermixed here / Jordan superstar. Obviously came here for fame and fortune.
► this is Chase's voice IMO

Yeah... regarding Chase's voice and other voices, I am TOTALLY clueless because I was listening to some pretty bad audio. Yet you realize my whole modus operandi was simply to present how The Big Three were shown in the promos... although I am still not sure they ARE the Big Three since I am behind with the spoiler information. I was pretty much assuming Jordan was Top Stallion of Jo-Jo's corral, but there is so much trouble in their relationship. Also there are storm clouds rising for Robby too. (It did amuse me that Chad hung out with his ex.) Yet Luke is that steady sailboat that she paddles her way towards each time. Right now I am baffled.

I have few segments/moments that would be nice of you to tell me your opinion

1. robby did a lot of ITM on episode 1 (as if he was an outsider dissecting what was going on: half are serious, half are not... then we see jake the architect with serious but we know he was eliminated first night)

I remember Catherine narrated some about the competing ladies in Sean's first episode. Just not as much as others. I would have to re-watch the premiere again, but you may be on to something here. Shawn was very talkative in Kaitlyn's premiere but all of his talk was focused on HER more than the guys. You could also tell he really was "smitten" by her. I know both Robby and Jo-Jo are very polite discussing each other. I am not feeling the "gooey" between them yet. Maybe when we have more footage of them getting intimate (apart from the pool table scene), I will think differently.

2. Cheating diner Jordan/Jojo

3. crayy-zy Luke/jojo... we see luke talking looking away and she is touching her hair not looking at him, immediately seen into a passionate kiss and her crazy speech. I saw a one way street edit here

You know... ever since Juan was clawing all over Clare Bear, while acting aloof with Nikki all the time on screen (and in VH1's Couples Therapy, we learned why), I don't know WHAT to think of anybody's body language on this show. There was no doubt in my mind from day 1 that Shawn was Kaitlyn's pick with or without the "I had sex with Nick" business, simply because she looked like she had been konked on the head by a cupid the whole time. Yet some leads are very difficult to read at times.

Luke's scenes suffer too much from talk-talk-talk. Her make-out session with Robby on the pool table was... interesting. Also she was pretty excited talking about him on their date. Jordan still gets the most "oomph" from her on screen and she talks more about him than anybody else. Yes, she is stroking HIS hair, not HERS, constantly when he is indecisive about the whole "ready for engagement" business.

4. Jordan: 'she said that I am tough to read and this is kinda frustrating' 'she is kinda questioning and try to sort it out those feelings I know we have for each other'

episode 4 - cocktail party:

Jojo seems to express this only about jordan: 'you make me nervous' 'I thought a lot about you' 'I missed you' 'you are not vocal' 'I do not want to force you being in this, you know what I mean' 'you are so hard to read'

Jordan 'she keeps pressing to open up to her' 'If I do not express those feelings I'm gonna loose her' 'I am falling for you. I mean I can see someone that i can fall in love with. And it means the world to me. HER: this is the soft sweet jordan... who is this guy?)

HER ITM: Hearing that jordan is falling for me, that makes me excited. I needed that to hear that from jordan tonight. I needed to tell me where he stood in our relationship and I feel soooo good about it (saying yes with her head)

We can go both ways with this.

They (the handlers) created "conflict/doubt" for Lauren last season after she was accused of being different around Ben than she was with others. Apparently not true, but it cast doubt in her standing. Also Josh had his lie detector outrage, Courtney was Courtney, Nikki was Nikki, Jillie's Ed left the show "for work", Emily frustrated Brad to no end with her aloofness... and the list goes on. So... yeah... Jordan fits in well with other F1s on account of how much concern Jo-Jo has for him. Did she bother checking any other guy's ex-girlfriend (a first for this show)?

As far as the "opening up". Well... lots of F2s and F3s had to "open up" as well. It is a requirement for you to at least LOOK heartbroken in order to get the lead role for next season.

Who was the Bachelorette that kept demanding all of her top 4 guys to say "I love you"? Was it Deanna or Jillian? I forget.

5. animals mixed here and there: duck in jordan intro, hummingbird (jordan), bear (chad), eagle (alex), dogs (luke)... we know edits love to associate animals with contestants. what is your take on this? relevant, not relevant?

I used to think they were. A bird on a hometown gave you a good chance to be F1. Yet Kaitlyn had grackles in hers and she was F3. Number 1 bird of the franchise is the Canadian Goose. I can't tell you how many seasons had those. They also like alligators (Vienna in Jake's season especially).

6. (single date with luke). 'he is beautiful but he is also a country boy' 'cosy blanket, it was romantic' 'he is a man. He is a man's man' .. words 'hot' was said multiple times, romantic x2 'he is a gentleman' ... HER: 'first (dates) of many (whispered 2 times that date). Perfect on paper edits? Or F1. Edited for next bach?

Per Chad, "she needs A MAN who is ready to take care of her in a way she NEEDS to be taken care of."

She said of Robby "He's A MAN. He makes me feel sexy and I feel like there's something in Robby that's going to blow me away."

In the promo, Jordan is shown in a montage involving the word "bad b-o-y".

One of her attractions to Chad was that he had some "mystery". That didn't make sense to viewers since Chad is an open book with no filter. Yet Luke had "mystery" in episode 1 that she liked.

7. Robby: bad edits? hidden? The kiss on the poll table was extremely hot. It seemed like 0 to 100 mph. His single date was about trust and sharing feelings. Jojo seemed VERY surprised that he said he was falling in love VERSUS Jordan that she begged him to tell her. Both relationship do not seem to be at the same mutual level. I have also the same feeling with luke.

Yeah... I covered this above as possible pro-Robby material. Hey! I have not bet on any horses on this race. Winner Robby or Winner Jordan or Winner Luke... it is all good with me. I am just doing some comparison checks here. Mighty doubtful of a Chase win though.

This was a key quote: "It is scary to put yourself out there, but it was then that I realized how much I trust Robby. He makes me feel alive."

8. Jordan single date: I found his date a lot more interrupted than usual with the guys. We hardly saw romantic on the expensive yacht. They jump in the dirty water with seals and straight to the diner part with this cheating (staged by prods?) conversation.

of course we could dissect every words and situations but do you think that Jordan could have been cast for the next bachelor gig but the prods changed their mind to Luke and knowing that Jordan decided to go to win the girl as no other alternative? Robby being a back up bad boy?

Do you know if the episodes are 'made' right after each 'week' episodes? If so, we could have had a change of script during the show? Jordan next bach turning F1?

Jojo said she knew about jordan before the premiere. 2 group dates were NFL. Being an ex NFL, do you think it was a done deal from the start?

It is funny that the top 4 are: 2 bad man/boy (robby and jordan) and 2 man/boy (luke and chase)

what about the motto of this season? Will jojo fall or not for the bad boy?

it seems to me that edits are truly insisting on the bad boys.

Thanks for your thoughts. I also hope that real life is giving you a break with this show.

All good questions I can't exactly answer.

In the promo she says "There's *something* about the Bad Boy that I seem to be drawn to." That *something* must be "being bad behind closed doors" because she is kissing a guy in a plaid shirt who LOOKS like Luke, but I am not 100% sure it his him, while flames are up front. They inserted up-front flames as a silly trick on one of Ashley and Ben Flajnik's dates since those two lacked any real "fire" as far as I could tell. Yet the flames may mean that we are only seeing Jo-Jo at her most pristine on screen. Could *something* "bad" with Luke be happening when the cameras are off?

Again, I am only asking here. Not promoting Luke over the other two. Remember that I was the one ridiculing him earlier about how he was moping around the veterans' graveyards in his intro.

Thanks @JBF

I like to read your thoughts. You are yourself a franchise veteran and you have a huge memory on details that I totally forgot. It is fun that you remind us those.

mystery for her is a man that she cannot 'manage'. A man that will take charge. That is the way I see it. She is most comfortable with boys: jordan, robby and chase but she is attracted to a man.

So far I saw 2 teasers for next moday:

- CH explaining on a buenos aires plazza: 1 single date, 1 GD and a second 2:1 SOURCE
- Luke with jojo, part emotional talk and part hot kiss. jojo saying that the spark betwen them is crayyy-zySOURCE

the funny thing is that she has no emotional face each time she talks about luke on ITM versus totally smitten face with jordan. I am probably biaised here.

I agree that I found the teaser weird when I saw the 'bad boy' voice over associated with luke and flames... it was sleughted it is luke at hometown. Luke is not edited as a bad boy but as a gentleman, a respectable war vet, he is also seen vulnerable, open with his feelings. But it is more about the words jojo is describing him twice that makes me think that he is definitely not the guy she wants in her lifestyle:

- he is beautiful BUT he is also a country boy.
- you are rugged BUT you do not like it

I think she has a lot of preconceive notion of country guys. I think she likes city guys versus country too. Guys like jordan or robby who love fashion, who love to party, who like 'glitters' (geez does she adores them in her dresses).

I think she is not ready for a man. I think right now she is looking for a boy. I think she want a long loving term relationship but ready to marry? not sure.

Anyways. make fun of luke. do not mind one bit. You do that with all of them with no particular preference so it is funny.  

I always thought that the F1 is generally the one who make the less noises... But this season is definitely difficult for me to see a season like this one: the bad boy winning the heart from the limo to a potential proposal.

lets define 'bad boy' uh?

(my opinion above, no facts). TY.

Remember when Desie would roll her eyes discussing her fantasy date with Chris Siegfried and folks here thought it was all an act of "got to deal with HIM so I can have my yummy Brooks later"?

I can not makes heads or tails out of Jo-Jo. She makes me feel like a Yo-Yo.

Fortunately there are more YouTube videos uploaded for multiple contestants than in past seasons, probably because nobody is as certain this season is all "cut and dry". I should go through the three guys some more with the sound off.

I did suggest figuring out VOs VS PIs said directly about the person. 
With the sound of tells you everything also.

at one point I used to watch the episode on HULU and there we could have the complete subtitles. it was truly fun and helpful. if someone is using it, maybe checking the options?

fleiss twitter

This show keeps changing and evolving... and deteriorating too. Ha ha! There is no "cookie cutter" formula any more.

The Goodie Two Shoes finalist went away with lovely Vienna (although she was more lovable than Jake). Courtney was compared to a Black Widow. Heck, Chad might have had a chance to be Jo-Jo's future hubbie had he tried better to get along with the dudes. It makes no difference what past girlfriend troubles Jordan and Robby had or hadn't... or if both guys are suspiciously viewed by their competitors.

One thing that put me off with Luke was his fussing on a group date that he wasn't getting any time with Jo-Jo. The "whiners" are not the types you would traditionally think make it to the end... except a few actually have, now that I think about it.

Prior to Lauren (I think... somebody can correct me here), nobody made it to the end who was first out of the limos. Granted, a cluster became the next lead, including Lauren's Ben. So Jordan has equal opportunity now.

Whitney was one of the first, if not THE first, finalists to get a crowd-pleasing date in Iowa with many fans snapping photos as her mural got unveiled. Traditionally a front runner wasn't so public. This was especially true in Ashley's season when JP was the next-to-the-last contestant revealed by Yee Spoiler King and his shaved head was nowhere to be found in leaked group date photos pre-show. Therefore, Luke's very public (many watching) rock concert date no longer rules against him as in past seasons.

Although rare, F1s like Catherine even get solo dates as late as episode 6. Of course, Luke, Robby and Jordan all have had theirs early enough. So far we haven't had a FIRST 1 on 1 date winner yet.

OK... I mentioned this line above with Robby: "It is scary to put yourself out there, but it was then that I realized how much I trust Robby. He makes me feel alive." That is a good F1-ish line.
However Jordan is equally trusted: "I trust him. I trust that he is being truthful with me." According to Jordan, "Trust is one of the most important things in a relationship. You can't have a relationship without honesty."


A couple crumbs I will again throw Luke's way...

His line early on a key group date, "I am starting to feel a real connection with Jo-Jo but I don't know what her type is necessarily. I'm not in on those conversations. I don't know where she stands with everybody else."  reminds me of a number of past finalists. Maybe not super confident Courtney.  Yet you rarely hear a F2/3/4 talk like this. Jordan is talking similar stuff in the promos, but this is after showing super-confidence earlier when he stole her away for some kissing. The whole "vibe" is different.

There is a key scene I mentioned earlier with Jo-Jo playing with Jordan's hair, but I found several interesting shots of her doing the same with Luke. Intriguingly, she does it a lot when they are seated on a couch in the fire fighter group date, but there are some bizarre *jump cuts* involved. She starts stroking his head and the editors quickly insert a shot of their hands together (which EVERYBODY gets). She does it again and they don't cut it this time ONLY because what he is saying is very important. Then there is another *jump cut* when she does it a third time and you see her hand instantly back by her own face... almost as if he gave her static electricity or something. Of course, this may be nothing more than sloppy editing to enhance the flow of their conversation. Yet I wonder if they may be... hee hee hee... *downsizing* this relationship much like they did Desiree/Chris in the early episodes of her season. Remember how we just saw only a split second of the two together in episodes 1 and 2, then much more in episode 3 that built him up as a front runner (although they hilariously "digitally smudged" their faces when they were dancing together), followed by their "friends zone" talk in Atlantic City in episode 4? Ooooooohhhh that was a FUN season to analyze!

Now, we do see a lot more head fondling on his solo date and later cocktail meetings. However, she maintains a surprisingly stoic face when he tells her he's falling for her in one key scene. I mean... gee, Jo-Jo, don't you even care? Or... *chuckle chuckle*... is that the "second take" that they use? We can't be 100% certain she was THAT stoic when he said it. They might have just inserted a shot of her while he was discussing agriculture instead and dubbed him over it, for all we know.

Another interesting edit in the earlier group date that had me curious: Luke says "I'm pretty jealous of the time the other guys are getting with Jo-Jo" over a shot of her specifically with Robby. (Shades of JP vs. Ben in Ashley's season.) After Luke's line, we hear Robby/Jo-Jo's conversation going like this: Jo-Jo starts saying "being engaged and being married... ", then Robby interrupts instantly with little thought "how awesome is that?!" Luke then says in his PI session "I hope my 1 on 1 time with her is meaningful" as if the editors are poking fun at Robby for NOT being "meaningful" by his abrupt interrupting of Jo-Jo before she finishes her sentence.

I did find it interesting that Luke pulled her aside to reassure her that the tabloid coverage of her ex-boyfriend didn't impact their relationship. Her words: "I don't care what people I don't know think. I care about what YOU think. Everyone else here has put their lives on hold for me, so that is why I was so upset." / "It feels really good to know that Luke isn't putting a lot of emphasis on that garbage that's out there. He is not questioning me. He is being so supportive and that makes me feel a lot more confident."

I still think Jordan is SHOWN as her strongest relationship at this stage. Maybe he was (or is, if he's the winner) the one she is focusing on the most in the early episodes. Both Luke and Robby are "growing" on her and may or may not overtake Jordan. I believe this line of hers for Robby applies to Luke equally: "I feel like there's something in Robby that's going to blow me away."

Jo-Jo on each of her solo dates:
Robby: "Being engaged and being married sometimes is scary, but taking risks can lead to great rewards. It makes me excited because I know the potential to fall in love is there."
Jordan: "This could be the start of the most perfect love story. That's crazy."
Luke: "This could be the first of many dates for the rest of my life with Luke."

You know... I am throwing in the towel this season and just enjoying the ride,. Every shot of Jo-Jo and Luke resembles Hillary Clinton and Donald Trump together. Never have I seen two more stoic faces in every frame together. Yet this is getting downright ridiculous episode after episode. The preview for Monday is an out and out laugh riot. Jo-Jo hardly even smiles!!!! She says all of this as if she is anchoring Wall Street Week in Review:

"I'm running out of words to describe the level of passion that IS Luke and ME... together. Luke and I have a very emotional relationship, but we have that physical connection down. We have it now. Every time we kiss I get the feeling we will have to take a breath. I have to take a moment because that spark is just crayzie. It is crrrrrrrrayziee."

*chuckle chuckle* Didn't he say "Nostradamus has spoken" or something like it when he chose Brooks for Desiree? Not that I am saying Jimmy is wrong. He may be right with the outcome.

oh dear @JBF    

thank you for your thoughts and of course about Luke. I truly laughed about your sarcasm. LOVE IT!

yes. totally right about the *jump cut*. I saw the hand up and on her knee many times at the GD firefighter cocktail. I did also thought that they cut a lot in there and wondered why. Out of all the other guys, the only serious conversation I had a vibe was with Luke. JOjo confirmed that she has an emotional and a physical relationship with Luke. As far as I know, she did not say the same about the others.

it is interesting that I also noticed that she is playing with hair only with jordan and luke. In the clip with Luke, she even kissed him spontaneously on his chick and it was a very natural sweet loving gesture. First time seen it.

You know. I made my bed believing Luke is not F1. But the way you see things make me think that maybe I did not see the little signs. That is very interesting for sure as a fan of Luke.

Then the stoic face. She looks like she is repeating her text. No emotion. She did that a couple of time with luke. The only real emotional jojo I saw with luke was the ITM right after the diner. She seemed on cloud 9.

Truth is that I think they downsized everyone but Jordan (and chad). Fleiss said from now on, place will be made to romance.


FLEISS twitter

Pretty much everyone is convinced that Jordan is F1 for different reasons. For me it is her body language. I cannot rely on puppy eyes since she does that to each guy she kisses.  Here is a deleted scene with jordan. I did not see her playing this little girl with any of the other guy so far.


SOURCE

so in one hand she is a little girl voice (Jordan) and on the other hand I see a woman (Luke and Robby). Chase is still not a front-runner IMO.

Everything about Jordan is about trust. An ex GF (you have to laugh about the 'I met someone you dated last december') saying that they had trust issues AKA cheating. Jojo listens his... silence? poor explanation? lies?... anyway, she decides that she is relieved it is done and past and now she can move on with him. The shore is done, the prods are happy, they had their drama. I mean WTH? this scene was plain ridiculous. Either she is naive, dumb or just does not care. The red flag is as big as the liberty statue!!

Fleiss said we will see romance from now on. Interesting, considering we had a 1:1 with Jordan and another with Robby and even Luke although fleiss qualified the date as HOT, playing with the outdoor hot bath and chemistry. So for Fleiss, he does not consider those dates as romantic, why?

Do you think it is a bit too much about jordan edits? over the top obvious?

To me, Jojo just seems too OTT with Jordan, although she seems a bit OTT with Robby as well, which seems really fake to me.

2observe wrote:To me, Jojo just seems too OTT with Jordan, although she seems a bit OTT with Robby as well, which seems really fake to me.  

Sorry what does it mean OTT please

HEA wrote:

2observe wrote:To me, Jojo just seems too OTT with Jordan, although she seems a bit OTT with Robby as well, which seems really fake to me.  

Sorry what does it mean OTT please

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