The Bachelor 20 - Ben Higgins - General Discussion - *Sleuthing - Spoilers* #3

This section will be archived/moved around in the coming days, however all discussions can take place in the General Discussion thread here.

Ben and Lauren General Discussion

The Bachelor's Mount Rushmore

https://twitter.com/scarfofjosh/status/711261068115349504

Now that things have settled some from the finale, I thought that I’d share some things about this season’s edit in a verrrryyyyy long post. Maybe a glass of wine for the read?

Because Jo was being presented in episodes 1 and 2 with a bit of a mean girl air (Jubilee) as well as a bit standoffish or skeptical, I don’t think that she was immediately on the show’s radar as the Bette. Around episode 3 and 4, her edit softens; she begins to be cast as the counselor, listening to both Jubilee and Caila’s concerns about their relationship with Ben.

The greatest example of foreshadowing comes in her conversation with Jubilee in episode 3. Jubilee believes that Ben goes for “nice girls, always happy girls, like Lauren and Caila.” Jubilee says, “I wish I could be that person who (pan to Jo) could so easily get Ben’s attention, but (pan to Jo) I’m not.” Jubilee goes on to reflect on him not gravitating towards the complicated people, with another camera pan to Jo. Does this foreshadow the ups & downs of BenJo’s relationship? Contrast that with Lauren’s “perfect first date”.

During Jo’s date in episode 4, the rest of her story arc is established. Jo will wrestle with letting down her guard to let Ben in. In a haunting foreshadowing, Jo tells Ben that she struggles with trust because she gave herself so fully to someone who wasn’t focused entirely on her. Jo finds herself in this scenario from FSD through the finale—believing that she’s Ben’s one and only, giving “so much of her heart” to him for it to be with Lauren ultimately. Interestingly, in Vegas and the Mexico City, Ben and Lo continue to connect over their brilliant first date; she confirms to him that she can see a future with him and he rewards her with special quality time. Smooth sailing.

In episodes 5 and 6, Ben continues to confide in Jo, seeking her understanding in the Bahamas. At the same time, Lauren falters a bit for him when her character is called into question. By Warsaw, not only has Lauren restored Ben’s faith in the specialness of their connection, but Ben also explains to Jo his reservations about her: That he’s not really sure of her feelings for him or if she’ll get to where he needs her to be by the proposal. During their date, Ben first says in an ITM that he’s most himself with Jo. Because of the question regarding her feelings, I think that the show doubted if Jo could fall for Ben.

By HTDs, it’s obvious that Ben wants Lauren; that their normalcy, in his mind, translates to a life after the craziness. Their bond is one that he can’t explain and evokes emotion. Jo’s date is another hurdle to overcome, and it makes me wonder if the show, at this point, knew that they wanted her as the Bette. I think that Jo thought that Ben would ditch her at F4.

The FSDs were the turning point in the season, IMO. Ben went into his date with Jo expecting to make a decision about sending her home (he says it at the start of the date). It seems likely that Ben’s F3 was supposed to be Jo and his F2 Caila. I think that once Jo admitted her feelings and Ben said it back, the vulnerability, relief, and openness that resulted from that showed Ben a side of Jo that he didn’t yet want to let go of. As he explained in his People blog, I think he also realized then that he really did love her, too.

I was surprised that the show left in the edit the juxtaposition of Ben’s mom’s interaction with Lo vs. Jo. The very question that the mom asks Lauren about seeing Ben’s harder side is immediately addressed by Jo. She tells his mom that they’ve weathered the storms, and we know from Ben that Jo was the person who was there for him when his mind was spinning. In his goodbye to Jo, Ben himself said that her care and concern for him confused him about Lauren.

The edit emphasized that Ben did fall in love with both Lauren as an instant flame and JoJo as the slow build, but he wanted Lauren for the long haul. All along, Lauren was the one that he wanted to really know him, so he gave her the best dates and time. Oddly though, he turned to JoJo when he was really struggling. If anything, the edit indicates that Jo was most likely the one whose feelings a viewer might second guess.

I think that what developed between Ben and Jo was unexpected for both of them. Perhaps in episode 4, the show knew that they wanted Jo to go to F4; perhaps for awhile, Ben and Jo played their parts. But, like most humans, when placed in strange, intense, emotional experiences, we bond with the people who are there for us in something called love.

In the end, though, Ben couldn’t imagine letting go of Lauren, this woman who captivated him and who made him feel so lucky. So, yes, it was always going to be Lauren.

^^^^^WOW! Just wow!^^^^

veg_out wrote:
The FSDs were the turning point in the season, IMO. Ben went into his date with Jo expecting to make a decision about sending her home (he says it at the start of the date). It seems likely that Ben’s F3 was supposed to be Jo and his F2 Caila. I think that once Jo admitted her feelings and Ben said it back, the vulnerability, relief, and openness that resulted from that showed Ben a side of Jo that he didn’t yet want to let go of. As he explained in his People blog, I think he also realized then that he really did love her, too.

I also think that JoJo was F3 going into these dates. He and Caila had a very good HTD and I think he thought of her as his F2 especially after JoJo's HTD. One of Ben's comments to Caila when he let her go also made me think that he really did expect her to be there at F2... but I can't remember exactly what it was! I just remember thinking it was a weird comment at the time.

veg_out wrote:Now that things have settled some from the finale, I thought that I’d share some things about this season’s edit in a verrrryyyyy long post. Maybe a glass of wine for the read?

Because Jo was being presented in episodes 1 and 2 with a bit of a mean girl air (Jubilee) as well as a bit standoffish or skeptical, I don’t think that she was immediately on the show’s radar as the Bette. Around episode 3 and 4, her edit softens; she begins to be cast as the counselor, listening to both Jubilee and Caila’s concerns about their relationship with Ben.

The greatest example of foreshadowing comes in her conversation with Jubilee in episode 3. Jubilee believes that Ben goes for “nice girls, always happy girls, like Lauren and Caila.” Jubilee says, “I wish I could be that person who (pan to Jo) could so easily get Ben’s attention, but (pan to Jo) I’m not.” Jubilee goes on to reflect on him not gravitating towards the complicated people, with another camera pan to Jo. Does this foreshadow the ups & downs of BenJo’s relationship? Contrast that with Lauren’s “perfect first date”.

During Jo’s date in episode 4, the rest of her story arc is established. Jo will wrestle with letting down her guard to let Ben in. In a haunting foreshadowing, Jo tells Ben that she struggles with trust because she gave herself so fully to someone who wasn’t focused entirely on her. Jo finds herself in this scenario from FSD through the finale—believing that she’s Ben’s one and only, giving “so much of her heart” to him for it to be with Lauren ultimately. Interestingly, in Vegas and the Mexico City, Ben and Lo continue to connect over their brilliant first date; she confirms to him that she can see a future with him and he rewards her with special quality time. Smooth sailing.

In episodes 5 and 6, Ben continues to confide in Jo, seeking her understanding in the Bahamas. At the same time, Lauren falters a bit for him when her character is called into question. By Warsaw, not only has Lauren restored Ben’s faith in the specialness of their connection, but Ben also explains to Jo his reservations about her: That he’s not really sure of her feelings for him or if she’ll get to where he needs her to be by the proposal. During their date, Ben first says in an ITM that he’s most himself with Jo. Because of the question regarding her feelings, I think that the show doubted if Jo could fall for Ben.

By HTDs, it’s obvious that Ben wants Lauren; that their normalcy, in his mind, translates to a life after the craziness. Their bond is one that he can’t explain and evokes emotion. Jo’s date is another hurdle to overcome, and it makes me wonder if the show, at this point, knew that they wanted her as the Bette. I think that Jo thought that Ben would ditch her at F4.

The FSDs were the turning point in the season, IMO. Ben went into his date with Jo expecting to make a decision about sending her home (he says it at the start of the date). It seems likely that Ben’s F3 was supposed to be Jo and his F2 Caila. I think that once Jo admitted her feelings and Ben said it back, the vulnerability, relief, and openness that resulted from that showed Ben a side of Jo that he didn’t yet want to let go of. As he explained in his People blog, I think he also realized then that he really did love her, too.

I was surprised that the show left in the edit the juxtaposition of Ben’s mom’s interaction with Lo vs. Jo. The very question that the mom asks Lauren about seeing Ben’s harder side is immediately addressed by Jo. She tells his mom that they’ve weathered the storms, and we know from Ben that Jo was the person who was there for him when his mind was spinning. In his goodbye to Jo, Ben himself said that her care and concern for him confused him about Lauren.

The edit emphasized that Ben did fall in love with both Lauren as an instant flame and JoJo as the slow build, but he wanted Lauren for the long haul. All along, Lauren was the one that he wanted to really know him, so he gave her the best dates and time. Oddly though, he turned to JoJo when he was really struggling. If anything, the edit indicates that Jo was most likely the one whose feelings a viewer might second guess.

I think that what developed between Ben and Jo was unexpected for both of them. Perhaps in episode 4, the show knew that they wanted Jo to go to F4; perhaps for awhile, Ben and Jo played their parts. But, like most humans, when placed in strange, intense, emotional experiences, we bond with the people who are there for us in something called love.

In the end, though, Ben couldn’t imagine letting go of Lauren, this woman who captivated him and who made him feel so lucky. So, yes, it was always going to be Lauren.

Good post. I agree it was always going to be Lauren, I think it was Lauren from Day 1. The others and esp the F4 were all part of the story board. I also believe that the two "ILU's" had to happen because Ben was not going to let Lauren confess her love for him " Im completely in love with you" without responding to her with his real feelings for her. i'm sure many will not agree with me but I find Ben to be somewhat old fashion. HE told her brothers that he had to much respect for her and would not put her in a position in the fantasy suite that would disrespect her in any way,so I think he wanted her family & the world to know that he loved her as much as she loved him before spending the night with her in the fantasy suite.( esp now that they are showing couples in bed the morning after). In order for him to spill his feelings to Lauren I think producers told him that he could but would have to tell F2 (JoJo) he loved her too to create doubt for viewers. If you go back and watch the "I love you to JoJo "and then the serious "I've know that I'm in love with you for a while now". The difference is obvious. Ben's tears at the end were tears of knowing he had to complete the show and in order to do that he would have to hurt someone and at the same time make sure she would stay until the very end. That was his confliction ( I also believe TPB knew they wanted JoJo for bachelorette.) I do think he loved JoJo as a friend & the whole process of having to deceit someone in the end was killing him. From epi 4 up until hometowns they were building the storyboard connection with him and JoJo and once hometowns hit the negatives and the decline started (ie. her EX, her brothers).and through fantasy & meeting his parents he started pulling away a little with the relationship and casting doubt to her and had to do whatever he needed to do to take her to the end and not risk her walking away before the FRC. Jo Jo will GET IT once she has to do the same thing now with Bachelorette show. My take is that if he could have walked out of there with Lauren after night 2 or after their first one on one date he would have.

A little inside tip: I was told years ago from someone who was on the show that after the first nights cocktail party the producers ask the lead if there is anyone who stands out to them and they get to pick "their main gal & maybe 2 or 3 more that they are attracted to enough to get to know better,kiss the most and take the distance. Sometimes the lead knows immediately who he/she is going to pick ( ie Firestone, Brad ,Ben, to name a few) All the others are picked by producers to create the show., the drama girls, the criers ect ( olivia, Lace.ect) The lead keeps them as long as the producers want them to and they plan the one on one dates around the leads first pick.& who will get down to F4 , then they build the storyboard. There were signs throughout Ben's show that I picked up on that maybe some wouldn't notice. After that aweful night with Leah & Lauren was crying, she was looking forward to discussing with Ben at cocktail party about leah's comments to insure that what Leah said would not affect their relationship so what do the producers do, they say NO Cocktail party and now Lauren thinks she's going home, What does Ben say before handing out the roses " This is going to be the hardest Rose ceremony yet" and I believe he said that because out the order in which they make him hand out the roses and give the LAST one to Lauren , Ben knew by doing that it was going to hurt lauren and make her think she was going home. Watch his eyes as he hands out the 2nd rose , before he calls JoJo's name he looks at Lauren and rolls his head & eyes as if to say " I don't want to do this to you" and then they stand her and the other Lauren right next to each other so when he says "lauren" before he says "Lauren B" it's another stop the heart moment for LaurenB. It's so obvious. The producers LOVE to create the antisapation & suspense. When Ben walked in that room after the Leah episode he knew Lauren was crying, he goes to sit down and he immediatly looks to his right and he's biting his nails., knowing Lauren was suffering to some extent was bothering him but but he could'nt do anything about it, he was very nervous,. Next episode in Warsaw when talking to his parents when mentioning Lauren he says that last time he saw her things weren't good and next thing we know Ben wants her to feel special and she gets the first one on one date and he personally asks her to go on that date( again trying to keep it alot more REAL with Lauren .) When Ben makes the call to Lauren's dad he says " I wish I could have told you I loved her when I was in portland" Ben already knew it then but again out of the respect for the process he "couldn't". So many little hints along the way in every show paints the true story. When Ben and the others say it's not scripted and it's REAL they mean what's real about it is they found love with their F1 so that makes it a real process that can work. JMO and imput fr people who I know who were on the show. sorry for long post.

veg_out wrote:By HTDs, it’s obvious that Ben wants Lauren; that their normalcy, in his mind, translates to a life after the craziness. Their bond is one that he can’t explain and evokes emotion. Jo’s date is another hurdle to overcome, and it makes me wonder if the show, at this point, knew that they wanted her as the Bette. I think that Jo thought that Ben would ditch her at F4.

Great post in its entirety - just choosing this point to start my comments. JoJo's HTD was, IMO, so completely over the top producer manipulation with an ex BF who wants her back and attack dogs for brothers that on any organic playing field she would have been gone at F4. I think they may have set that up to create a good excuse to send her home at that point because they wanted her for the next lead even before HTDs. And looking at the other contenders in the top 5 I think they were right in believing that JoJo is the best candidate - IMO she is heads and shoulders above anyone else they had to choose from.

But I think something happened before HTD that forced them to call an audible. We heard that Becca was planned to get a HTD and I think Ben changed their plan by sending her home. Exactly why I'm not sure but if I had to guess, it would be that he already knew he wasn't going to pick her and didn't want to lead her on (especially after she asked him not to blindside her) and perhaps the "substitution" he made was Amanda. Not because he was serious about choosing her (his mind at this point was all on Lauren) but he seemed to like her, perhaps wanted to validate her worth and attractiveness, and perhaps knew she and Lauren were close and wanted to do something nice for Lauren's friend.

After HTD Amanda was an obvious F4 to me - no reason to take her to Jamaica and away from her daughters with no intention of picking her. So that leaves Lauren as F1 and Caila and JoJo to slot into the F2/F3 positions.

veg_out wrote:The FSDs were the turning point in the season, IMO. Ben went into his date with Jo expecting to make a decision about sending her home (he says it at the start of the date). It seems likely that Ben’s F3 was supposed to be Jo and his F2 Caila.

I think the show wanted JoJo as F3 because that made it easy (and "conventional") for them to pick her for the next lead and that would make Caila F2. IMO it's very likely, based on things I've heard over the years, that they would have been pushing Ben to get him to do what they wanted. I also think it's important to realize the real sequence of FD as they were filmed - Caila then JoJo then Lauren. It was pretty obvious to me that Ben and Caila were just on totally different planets on their FD and after that date I think it very unlikely that Ben was going to take Caila to F2 - he was consistent in so many other "goodbyes" by sending them home as soon as he knew there was no future. If Ben planned to do that with Caila after her FD then that makes JoJo F2 and (still) Lauren as F1.

veg_out wrote:I think that once Jo admitted her feelings and Ben said it back, the vulnerability, relief, and openness that resulted from that showed Ben a side of Jo that he didn’t yet want to let go of. As he explained in his People blog, I think he also realized then that he really did love her, too.

IMO it's not unusual for the lead to develop strong emotions for both F1 and also for F2 and there's a lot of examples of this. To me the best example is Sean (because I think in terms of Christian values and general sensitivity Sean is closest to Ben of all the other leads) who told Lindsay he loved her - and then proposed to Catherine. I think Ben also developed strong emotions for JoJo - but he went on to propose to Lauren so those emotions were not really the same. I'm reluctant to use Ben's blog as an accurate description of reality because I just earlier found a rather blatant situation where Ben's People blog aligned with the show edit but Ben told a very different story in interviews this past week. I rather think what Ben said in the People Magazine photo shoot and interview is a better representation of how he felt - "At the time [saying I love you"] was my best definition of how I was feeling. Have you cared about multiple people throughout your dating experiences? That's the best way to describe it, only for me it was consolidated!"

Here's where I totally agree with this post as the most plausible explanation of how (and why) things played out:

jolena wrote:
snip

I think it was Lauren from Day 1. The others and esp the F4 were all part of the story board. I also believe that the two "ILU's" had to happen because Ben was not going to let Lauren confess her love for him " Im completely in love with you" without responding to her with his real feelings for her. i'm sure many will not agree with me but I find Ben to be somewhat old fashion. He told her brothers that he had too much respect for her and would not put her in a position in the fantasy suite that would disrespect her in any way, so I think he wanted her family & the world to know that he loved her as much as she loved him before spending the night with her in the fantasy suite.( esp now that they are showing couples in bed the morning after). In order for him to spill his feelings to Lauren I think producers told him that he could but would have to tell F2 (JoJo) he loved her too to create doubt for viewers. If you go back and watch the "I love you to JoJo "and then the serious "I've known that I'm in love with you for a while now". The difference is obvious. Ben's tears at the end were tears of knowing he had to complete the show and in order to do that he would have to hurt someone and at the same time make sure she would stay until the very end. That was his confliction ( I also believe TPB knew they wanted JoJo for bachelorette.) I do think he loved JoJo as a friend & the whole process of having to deceit someone in the end was killing him. From epi 4 up until hometowns they were building the storyboard connection with him and JoJo and once hometowns hit the negatives and the decline started (ie. her EX, her brothers).and through fantasy & meeting his parents he started pulling away a little with the relationship and casting doubt to her and had to do whatever he needed to do to take her to the end and not risk her walking away before the FRC. Jo Jo will GET IT once she has to do the same thing now with Bachelorette show. My take is that if he could have walked out of there with Lauren after night 2 or after their first one on one date he would have.

snip

Since this was said so well I won't bother commenting on it (I just bloded key points) - I could have (and would have) written exactly the same thing. As to the rest of what jolena posted - that also aligns with things I've heard over the years as well.

Ranking the Bachelor Seasons.
http://www.ew.com/gallery/ranking-seasons-the-bachelor?xid=entertainment-weekly_socialflow_twitter

ForeverLove wrote:Ranking the Bachelor Seasons.
http://www.ew.com/gallery/ranking-seasons-the-bachelor?xid=entertainment-weekly_socialflow_twitter

I could not disagree more. Maybe Ben, but the rest of the top 5, no for me. I would have Charlie, Byron and Andrew in my top 5. They found real love even when f it didn't end in marriage. And Jesse Palmer was painful and I wanted to like it I really did.

stuckinsc wrote:

ForeverLove wrote:Ranking the Bachelor Seasons.
http://www.ew.com/gallery/ranking-seasons-the-bachelor?xid=entertainment-weekly_socialflow_twitter

I could not disagree more. Maybe Ben, but the rest of the top 5, no for me. I would have Charlie, Byron and Andrew in my top 5. They found real love even when f it didn't end in marriage. And Jesse Palmer was painful and I wanted to like it I really did.

Lol for me, I don't know half of these bachelors so it was a good rundown for me. Love it that Brad was listed twice. He sure made a double impact on this show.

ForeverLove wrote:Ranking the Bachelor Seasons.
http://www.ew.com/gallery/ranking-seasons-the-bachelor?xid=entertainment-weekly_socialflow_twitter

My Top Bachelors: (that I've watched):
11) Jake Pavelka (Vienna??? Really??? Out of all the fine women there?)
10) Jesse Palmer (sexist remarks)
9) Bob Guiney  (not very genuine)
8) Brad Womack 1.0  (Should've kept Bettina, might've gotten a proposal)
7) Aaron Buerge (turned out to be not such a gent post-show)
6) Sean Lowe (likable, but thought I would be more enamored with him & Cat's love story)
5) Charlie O'Connell (complex & troubled guy falls in love with good girl Sarah, loved the ying/yang)
4) Ben Higgins (such a genuine and emotional guy, if not a little too immature)
3) Andy Baldwin (so likable)
2) Jason Mesnick (very emotional & loved the Molly switcheroo because that's the true love story I saw that season)
1) Andrew Firestone (smart as whip, thoughtful, and nerdy, plus handsome...great girls! Remember Tina Fabulous?) 

Did not watch: Prince Lorenzo, Travis Stork, Ben Flajnik, JuanPablo, Chris Soules, Byron V, Brad 2.0, Alex Michel, Matt Grant


Personal Bachelorette Ranking:
10) Jen Schefft (went into the show under false pretenses...was already attached to a guy in Chicago?)
9) Emily Maynard (no thanks, Barbie doll, and I nearly went blind with all the sequins)
8) Kaitlyn Bristrowe (speechless...no words left)
7) DeAnna Pappas (not as likable as others, more so now)
6) Ali Fedotowsky (really held the lead well, but rather queeny for my taste)
5) Desiree Hartsock (so sweeeeeet...maybe a little too sweet for me...was very pro-Brooks but loved her and Chris together, too)
4) Ashley Hebert (fun and spunky! except for all that awkward Ryan stuff and the Bentley stuff and adore Jash to pieces)
3) Meredith Phillips (one of the most real 'Ettes, loved her and Ian's love story)
2) Trista Rehn (genuine, mature, the epitome of this franchise's success)
1) Jillian Harris (so funny & spunky and real...my absolutely favorite 'Ette, but Ed???? Really?REID!!! Still love her the most, that Jilly Beans)

Did not watch: Andi Dorfman

Agentcurls, thanks for the trip down memory lane. I remember watching Andrew's season and falling in love with Tina Fabulous. Loved her style and attitude . I always thought that Andrew should have chosen, jmo. 

Tina is married and is now a mother. She share/run a business, a health spa, with her husband out in the SF area when last I checked