Re: Nick Viall - Bachelorette 11 - *Spoilers - Sleuthing* - Discussion #4

by bleuberry Wed Jun 24, 2015 12:47 pm

Well I can say as someone who likes Shawn, his likability took a hit on Monday - this is evident just by reading here. I think referring to people as hypocritical is kind of unfair as it happens on both sides (calling Shawn out and blaming Nick's antics on everyone but him ie: he was led on, it was editing, producers prodded him). IMO Nick has given people a little more material which is why I think he doesn't catch as much of a break as Shawn, who surely had a hot-headed, drunken, jealous tantrum.

by lleyki Wed Jun 24, 2015 1:45 pm

Maybe it's just me, but I haven't seen many people blaming anything with Nick on editing or producers. What I'm reading is some posters saying they don't see what Nick did on Monday either on the episode or with his tweets that have warranted some of the names he's been called and accusations hurled against him. And yes it has been pointed out that it is a bit odd that he gets called all these names, accused of so much but a guy who basically acts creepily territorial is hailed as a "real man" (I saw many comments like that on social media), a true gentleman and a great guy who Kaitlyn doesn't even actually deserve and hopefully has apologized profusely to for daring to have sex with another guy while the competition was still going on.

It wasn't just that Shawn was upset about not getting the group date rose, it's that he was dismissive about Jared, he got angrier and angrier, made comments about how Kaitlyn "is ruining things" by apparently committing the sin of giving the rose to someone else, like she was basically failing in his eyes and his high standards and then he eventually goes off to confront her, presumably feeling like she has to explain herself to him. And again, all she's done, far as he knows at this point, is give another guy a group date rose. That's it.

The reaction was overly dramatic, incredibly possessive and territorial and incredibly entitled in my opinion. But nothing for that - oh he's just very passionate and just really, really loved her. Yeah the same way accusations of Nick being slimy and gross and manipulatively seducing Kaitlyn can so casually be thrown around, I want to point out that many other guys have been referred to as just being so passionate and just so in love when being controlling and we know how those situations sometimes turn out.

by whit90 Wed Jun 24, 2015 1:48 pm

^^^
If there was a like button I would hit it several times.

Great post!!!!

by bleuberry Wed Jun 24, 2015 2:09 pm

I meant in general he does get a pass for certain things, I don't think he did anything that warranted defending Monday night (on the show, his down low shady tweets are another story), as gross as I found him/half of their date laugh out loud

.

I didn't defend Shawn after his antics Monday but I don't wanna get into him too much in Nick's thread, I've posted my thoughts on it in the appropriate threads.

by Lucas15 Wed Jun 24, 2015 2:31 pm

jojo47 wrote:
reason wrote:Chech out Jillian blog it is up in the no discussion thread good read, I think she is saying Nick is one hurting man.

I think this is the part of Jillian's blog you might be referring to, reason:

If Kaitlin doesn’t end up with Nick … then there might be a hurt man at the end of this. My words to him … THIS show, has brought you the woman of your dreams. Life is about to get really fricken awesome with this hilarious fun loving beauty. But ‘the show’ also comes with some thorns. The ‘process’ is a complete mind fu#& and TRUE success at the end is realizing this and putting your blinders on until its all over. TRUST the LOVE and nothing else.

I interpret what she's saying is that if Nick isn't F1, then Shawn is her F1. And as a result of what went on between Kaitlyn & Nick on the show, Shawn might feel hurt. So her advice "my words to him" is directed to Shawn.

I interpret it exactly the same way - she is talking to a "not Nick F1" without naming who she thinks it is. IMO her advice is valid.

IrishGal wrote:Nick's not F1. And I thank goodness for it. Kaitlin is my fave bette so far and it would break my heart if she hitched herself to that creepy man. He makes my skin crawl. He's unattractive, he reminds me of Eddie Haskell in the original Leave it to Beaver TV show from the 60s...most of you won't recall that but Eddie was a fake smarmy piece of grossness and that's how I view Nick. He seduced Kait on the internet so that he could make his big comeback and redeem himself...well it didn't work because he is doing the exact same thing. A snake is a snake is a snake. Sorry Nick Chicks but that's just how I feel.

I commend you for the courage to post this; like Joshua speaking out about Nick on behalf of what turned out to be a bunch of dudes with lockjaw. IMO you were probably kinder than I might have been had I set out to write such a post. :claphands

emusha wrote:there is a very good chance imho shawn's "Demands" really didn't actually allow K to fully compartmentalize the relationships and fully explore them.

IMO very possible. But I also see the "compartmentalization" as producer manipulation and self serving - as long as "self" is the producers not the lead. They push this notion of "compartmentalization" and "exploring a relationship with each of the options" as the best way for the lead to make the right decision at the end; most leads do this, or try their best to, because it seems like good advice coming from "friends" who "have the lead's best interests at heart". Wrong. They do it because they are dealing with leads who are not good actors and this is a way of getting emotions that viewers will see as genuine because viewers are pretty quick to spot fake. The producers only have their interests at heart and to H*ll with the lead. Compartmentalization is part of the surface defining the bubble that exists during production.

Unfortunately at the end filming the bubble bursts.

by Guest Wed Jun 24, 2015 2:51 pm

IrishGal wrote:Nick's not F1. And I thank goodness for it. Kaitlin is my fave bette so far and it would break my heart if she hitched herself to that creepy man. He makes my skin crawl. He's unattractive, he reminds me of Eddie Haskell in the original Leave it to Beaver TV show from the 60s...most of you won't recall that but Eddie was a fake smarmy piece of grossness and that's how I view Nick. He seduced Kait on the internet so that he could make his big comeback and redeem himself...well it didn't work because he is doing the exact same thing. A snake is a snake is a snake. Sorry Nick Chicks but that's just how I feel.

Actually if you go back and look at their SM history that was posted on this board, it was Kaitlyn that was pursuing Nick.

by emusha Wed Jun 24, 2015 2:57 pm

happydays wrote:^^ Loved both of those posts Emusha & AAL !

I, like Nick, love to analyse these interactions!

I think really Nick is too deep for Kaitlyn. Combined with K's live in the moment and free attitude, I don't think they are viable long term.
I think they are a bit too far apart on the scale to balance each other out

happy -- I too am an analyzer (as obvious from my posts laugh out loud

) and enjoy looking beyond the surface for a deeper understanding. We haven't been shown the side of K that is intrigued by that and can match N in that way...I imagine he'd want someone who would enjoy being with him in that space at least from time to time...I do think K is an unconventional thinker (based on the way she was talking with CS in some ways) so I'm not dismissing the fact that there is a side of her that does that...I'm just wondering if she enjoys that he brings out that side of her in the way that he enjoys that she brings out the light-hearted side of him. I wonder if they bring those sides out in each other in a way that is balanced or in a way that will become irritating once they get used to each other...I actually see Ash and JP's relationship in that way -- they bring things out in each other that are very much complementary but they are veryyy diff people joined with common values and lifestyles/goals

I do think K is very close to the kind of person that complements and challenges Nick that he is looking for --- despite the differences we discussed above -- once the show started airing I do think we saw that they bring out very positive sides of each other...the fact that she trusts him and goes to him for advise even before shows how drawn they were to each other in kind of unspoken ways....the way N really losens up and both of them are very much themselves is great also and from the way she was glowing and had a "spring in her step" the next day their physical chemistry is very much on point to a point that I think it surprises both of them and puts them in a whole other realm to get lost in each other/ together...

I do however wonder if the kind of relationship that N wants is the same one K wants. I wondered the same about Andi but I also wondered if Andi was at the point that she could even provide that type of soul deep connection. I don't see K as immature or lacking the personal journeys that have made her shallow -- I actually think she's very multilayered and not at all shallow...I just am not sure if she likes the growth, challenge and learning as much as he does....

So what i'm curious to find out in this season is if

K actually explored the relationship with Nick and reached a conclusion that her desired lifestyle/relationship style etc. (something!) was diff from Nick
OR
K made a decision based on how deeply she fell in love/infatuation with Shawn (with/without considering how their personalities/values/life goals etc. fit together)
OR
K made a decision based on the pressure put on her by Shawn (she got worried she'd get rejected/heart broken if she did not tone in down and rush it with the other guys and her emotional connection and fear of losing shawn led to her being forced into a decision)...

by AllAboutLove Wed Jun 24, 2015 3:07 pm

happydays wrote:
lleyki wrote:
I didn't get the feeling that Nick is falling in love with Kaitlyn. I think he likes her, they have a nice friendship and clearly very, very sexually attracted to each other but, and I can't believe I'm saying this as I can't stand her, I bought Nick's feelings for Andi. And maybe that is why as some have noted he seems okay and maybe he is.

Just want to entertain this possibility...
Does anyone think it is possible that Nick realised the above and walked at F2? He respects her etc. but cannot propose to her, so in essence, pull a Brooks?

JMHO: I don't think Nick realized this. Here's why:

1) Joe told Nick in Ep 6 that Shawn spent off-camera time with Kaitlyn after group date (so sumo date or rap date).
2) From Shawn, we learn that this 6-7 hours spent together Kaitlyn told Shawn he was "the one".

Thing is, if that's when Kaitlyn told Shawn he was the one, then it was pre-Nick. Before Nick was on the show.

So Nick is on the show:
1) has his 1on1 date and talks to K about his concern that she may have been "committed to someone else" and that is why he thought it was a risk to come on 4 weeks in. K's essential response to Nick about that? She sleeps with him.
2) So, even when Joe tells Nick he's not the only one with off-camera time, Nick is thinking... well, that is before I officially was on the show.
3) Who knows what Kaitlyn told Nick? Maybe she told him he may be "the one" too? Shawn kissed and told, we don't know what K said to Nick off-camera and post-coitus.

So I see Nick feeling quietly confident merely because Kaitlyn brought him on the show so late and that Nick likely thought if she had a much stronger connection with someone else to the point that only that someone else matters, then why encourage him and initiate coitus and keeping him on? So if anything, Nick can look at it as being played, not just Shawn.

by BowenAnderson Wed Jun 24, 2015 3:22 pm

Max64 wrote:
IrishGal wrote:Nick's not F1. And I thank goodness for it. Kaitlin is my fave bette so far and it would break my heart if she hitched herself to that creepy man. He makes my skin crawl. He's unattractive, he reminds me of Eddie Haskell in the original Leave it to Beaver TV show from the 60s...most of you won't recall that but Eddie was a fake smarmy piece of grossness and that's how I view Nick. He seduced Kait on the internet so that he could make his big comeback and redeem himself...well it didn't work because he is doing the exact same thing. A snake is a snake is a snake. Sorry Nick Chicks but that's just how I feel.

Actually if you go back and look at their SM history that was posted on this board, it was Kaitlyn that was pursuing Nick.

Can you tell us what pages these are on?

by Guest Wed Jun 24, 2015 3:31 pm

BowenAnderson wrote:
Max64 wrote:
IrishGal wrote:Nick's not F1. And I thank goodness for it. Kaitlin is my fave bette so far and it would break my heart if she hitched herself to that creepy man. He makes my skin crawl. He's unattractive, he reminds me of Eddie Haskell in the original Leave it to Beaver TV show from the 60s...most of you won't recall that but Eddie was a fake smarmy piece of grossness and that's how I view Nick. He seduced Kait on the internet so that he could make his big comeback and redeem himself...well it didn't work because he is doing the exact same thing. A snake is a snake is a snake. Sorry Nick Chicks but that's just how I feel.

Actually if you go back and look at their SM history that was posted on this board, it was Kaitlyn that was pursuing Nick.

Can you tell us what pages these are on?

https://www.bachandbachettefans.net/t2948p144-the-bachelorette-11-kaitlyn-bristowe-clues-sleuthing-spoilers-no-discussion

by Guest Wed Jun 24, 2015 3:32 pm

lleyki wrote:Maybe it's just me, but I haven't seen many people blaming anything with Nick on editing or producers. What I'm reading is some posters saying they don't see what Nick did on Monday either on the episode or with his tweets that have warranted some of the names he's been called and accusations hurled against him. And yes it has been pointed out that it is a bit odd that he gets called all these names, accused of so much but a guy who basically acts creepily territorial is hailed as a "real man" (I saw many comments like that on social media), a true gentleman and a great guy who Kaitlyn doesn't even actually deserve and hopefully has apologized profusely to for daring to have sex with another guy while the competition was still going on.

It wasn't just that Shawn was upset about not getting the group date rose, it's that he was dismissive about Jared, he got angrier and angrier, made comments about how Kaitlyn "is ruining things" by apparently committing the sin of giving the rose to someone else, like she was basically failing in his eyes and his high standards and then he eventually goes off to confront her, presumably feeling like she has to explain herself to him. And again, all she's done, far as he knows at this point, is give another guy a group date rose. That's it.

The reaction was overly dramatic, incredibly possessive and territorial and incredibly entitled in my opinion. But nothing for that - oh he's just very passionate and just really, really loved her. Yeah the same way accusations of Nick being slimy and gross and manipulatively seducing Kaitlyn can so casually be thrown around, I want to point out that many other guys have been referred to as just being so passionate and just so in love when being controlling and we know how those situations sometimes turn out.

##NS

by emusha Wed Jun 24, 2015 3:44 pm

Lucas15 wrote:
emusha wrote:there is a very good chance imho shawn's "Demands" really didn't actually allow K to fully compartmentalize the relationships and fully explore them.

IMO very possible. But I also see the "compartmentalization" as producer manipulation and self serving - as long as "self" is the producers not the lead. They push this notion of "compartmentalization" and "exploring a relationship with each of the options" as the best way for the lead to make the right decision at the end; most leads do this, or try their best to, because it seems like good advice coming from "friends" who "have the lead's best interests at heart". Wrong. They do it because they are dealing with leads who are not good actors and this is a way of getting emotions that viewers will see as genuine because viewers are pretty quick to spot fake. The producers only have their interests at heart and to H*ll with the lead. Compartmentalization is part of the surface defining the bubble that exists during production.

Unfortunately at the end filming the bubble bursts.

I disagree that compartmentalization is just a producer schtick.... the proof for me in that is how torn up Ash was at Bentley leaving but then that let her see that JP really was the "rock" she needed and wanted (Bentley leaving removed the infatuation cloud that blocked her from seeing how perfect JP was for her), I also see Des as prime example cos she really wanted Brooks (again infatuation imho) but what she needed was Chris. If either of these ladies had shut themselves off once their "infatuation high" reached new levels with bentley/brooks...they would not have had a chance to build the kind of relationships they did with their final pick
both women were heart broken, literally (any of those crying scenes are proof of that) -- both said something to the effect of "I don't know if this will work for me now that X is gone"
I suspect Ali had a similar breakdown but hers was a bit diff cos frank was emotionally unavailable (similar to the other guys who left) but on the flip side she was realllly infatuated with roberto but the multi-layered (goals/values/personality/lifestyle) connection she had was with Frank -- so it was more a different combination of these types of connections than the other guys. I wonder if Frank really was emotionally available and they kept exploring the relationship if he'd have been F1 -- there's no way she or anyone else could know because she never got to explore it to that level and truly compare the relationships with Frank being fully available/vulnerable as herself. many people say that kevin her current beau looks and seems very much like frank, funny coincidence? Smiley

and she and roberto were obviously incompatible however "in love" they were

K I think was in infatuation with shawn from day one (similar to Ali IMHO "love at first sight" etc.) so imho Nick is more like her multi-layered connection -- and for that I really think she needed to unpack that relationship in all it's aspects (as she listed out 1. emotional 2. physical 3. mental etc. etc.)

The question still is there - did she get a chance to explore it fully cos obviously she wanted/needed to and also -- did she want the kind of relationship and connection nick wanted and were they actually compatible i.e. nick (beyond the physical chemistry) or shawn (beyond the infatuation)?

I don't mean to use infatuation as a bad word -- I think some of the greatest love stories start with that phase but I also think infatuation is exactly the phase the encompasses the "love is blind" idea ...I've been there and the ladies I mentioned above have also been there -- infatuation makes you put everything out of your head except for that "love feeling" cos that kind of love just has the goal of achieving only that love connection...despite the practical things that makes a relationship work. I think the "love is blind" kind of love needs to be tempered with gradual learning about each other including how complementary and how well a couple fits together

Now andi I think was also in infatuation with Josh -- the major difference I see with her was -- she was not in a similar kind of life trajectory (I don't think she really knew herself or what she needed/wanted) nor was she in the same kind of head-space as nick so I see her as very incompatible with Nick so she is not a very good example of the above. even still I think her relationship with BOTH men was important for her journey to find out what she needs/wants ultimately even if neither was "right" for her

I'm curious about K's experience -- and the way the journey unfolds...I'm very openminded to all combinations of realities including her finding full compatibility with shawn in addition to their initial "love is blind" infatuation, her following her heart despite the practical implications cos that's the only way to make a choice without regrets then in retrospect learning more about herself however the relationships end up etc etc. etc.

Bottom line is -- If K doesn't want the same things and wants to grow together with her F1 in the way they both agree -- everything will ultimately be valuable as a life lesson about what she does need/want...
all fun to analyze regardless... anyway back on track to the main point at hand -- I really do think each lead should take every relationship that has true potential to it's natural conclusion and that's the best way to learn about herself and what she needs whether she ends up marrying the guy she picks or not....

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