Episode 12 - 8/1 After the Final Rose - Discussion - Spoilers

I'm so not concerned about 'the edit.' I picked up on a vibe between Jesse and DeAnna in episode 4 of her season so by the time it was down to the final 2, I knew he was going to be F1. By the FDs, her body language with Jesse was over the top and she had all but shut down with Jeremy and Jason.

I really like Ben but I'm just not seeing any kind of undercurrent between them beyond a cerebral connection. One of my favorite dates this season was the one between her and Ben in Phuket. The mental kiss was mocked on The View but I thought it was really cute. The setup for the evening part of the date, to me, was the most romantic ever. I just think it was ruined by the boring kisses and Ben's stiffness. In real life, how many boring kisses does one suffer through before you move on? LOL!

To me, I see red flags w/Ben that would bug me personally. That whole 'you've got me where you want me' thing just didn't sit well with me and his whole explanation behind how he was teetering on the edge of the l-bomb and what not. Maybe that's his style but it was weird to me. Then on the HTD, as nice as it was, that whole thing about 'you have to like each other or it won't work for me' (even with his explanation that once they saw them together and he told them about her) just bugged me too and it showed on her face when he said it. Add to it that she felt intimidated by Ben's family and things seemed rather stiff - even with his sister who admitted to having issues with some of his women ... I just think Ashley, since people label her as so insecure, subtracted a few points in her head where Ben was concerned. She said she enjoyed Constantine's date the most - mostly because of his family. I think she had the opposite experience with Ben's and I think Constantine might have moved ahead of him at that point. Ben openly vocalized conditions on whether he could love/accept her and that's not a good thing.

In Phuket she said that she felt that Ben really liked her ... With JP, she is doing exactly what Ali did which was wonder why a guy like him isn't already taken and how he could possibly be so into her. Despite how she says he makes her feel comfortable and safe, she's scared to believe it. I think she's used to being dominant in relationships and she's got JP so whipped, she has it with him but doesn't know it yet. It doesn't sound like she's had bad or torrent past relationships. I think she is used to guys like Ben and feels more in control with him - at least she did prior to meeting his stuffy family.

I think 'the edit' is taking a different turn this time because they allowed a different kind of guy to dominate the first half of the season. JP has been her rescuer and knight in shining armor whereas Ben as been mostly aloof about her traumatic dilemma. It's one thing to be the tortoise, as Ames was trying to be, because you have a plan. Ben is being a tortoise because he's been shut down and unable to give anything. Ashley went out of her way to be 100% available to JP (and 'the guys' I suppose) but Ben has been guardedly opening up, tearing down walls and becoming more available for HIMSELF not so much Ashley. Even if she picks Ben, I don't think this bodes well for them. I think the reason we didn't see more than the sad parts of Ben's date is because that is the core of his story - how this experience changes him. I don't think he gets or needs to get the girl in this story. This is a starting point for him so he can move forward from now on ... JP is taking the risk because he sees a future with Ashley and he wants it to work between them. Ben is taking the risk as a necessary step in his own healing.

sjcaligurl wrote:I'm so not concerned about 'the edit.' I picked up on a vibe between Jesse and DeAnna in episode 4 of her season so by the time it was down to the final 2, I knew he was going to be F1. By the FDs, her body language with Jesse was over the top and she had all but shut down with Jeremy and Jason.

I really like Ben but I'm just not seeing any kind of undercurrent between them beyond a cerebral connection. One of my favorite dates this season was the one between her and Ben in Phuket. The mental kiss was mocked on The View but I thought it was really cute. The setup for the evening part of the date, to me, was the most romantic ever. I just think it was ruined by the boring kisses and Ben's stiffness. In real life, how many boring kisses does one suffer through before you move on? LOL!

To me, I see red flags w/Ben that would bug me personally. That whole 'you've got me where you want me' thing just didn't sit well with me and his whole explanation behind how he was teetering on the edge of the l-bomb and what not. Maybe that's his style but it was weird to me. Then on the HTD, as nice as it was, that whole thing about 'you have to like each other or it won't work for me' (even with his explanation that once they saw them together and he told them about her) just bugged me too and it showed on her face when he said it. Add to it that she felt intimidated by Ben's family and things seemed rather stiff - even with his sister who admitted to having issues with some of his women ... I just think Ashley, since people label her as so insecure, subtracted a few points in her head where Ben was concerned. She said she enjoyed Constantine's date the most - mostly because of his family. I think she had the opposite experience with Ben's and I think Constantine might have moved ahead of him at that point. Ben openly vocalized conditions on whether he could love/accept her and that's not a good thing.

In Phuket she said that she felt that Ben really liked her ... With JP, she is doing exactly what Ali did which was wonder why a guy like him isn't already taken and how he could possibly be so into her. Despite how she says he makes her feel comfortable and safe, she's scared to believe it. I think she's used to being dominant in relationships and she's got JP so whipped, she has it with him but doesn't know it yet. It doesn't sound like she's had bad or torrent past relationships. I think she is used to guys like Ben and feels more in control with him - at least she did prior to meeting his stuffy family.

I think 'the edit' is taking a different turn this time because they allowed a different kind of guy to dominate the first half of the season. JP has been her rescuer and knight in shining armor whereas Ben as been mostly aloof about her traumatic dilemma. It's one thing to be the tortoise, as Ames was trying to be, because you have a plan. Ben is being a tortoise because he's been shut down and unable to give anything. Ashley went out of her way to be 100% available to JP (and 'the guys' I suppose) but Ben has been guardedly opening up, tearing down walls and becoming more available for HIMSELF not so much Ashley. Even if she picks Ben, I don't think this bodes well for them. I think the reason we didn't see more than the sad parts of Ben's date is because that is the core of his story - how this experience changes him. I don't think he gets or needs to get the girl in this story. This is a starting point for him so he can move forward from now on ... JP is taking the risk because he sees a future with Ashley and he wants it to work between them. Ben is taking the risk as a necessary step in his own healing.

The point is that there have been many different characters that they have let dominate things in past seasons, but the cornerstone of their tried and true editing methods hadn't changed.........therefore, in all those seasons, why change them now. In the Bachelorette, there are tried and true patterns that have happened through six previous seasons.........check them out in the charts section. Those tried and true that mean a lot to the franchise, I just can't see them compromising them to give JP the F1..........not realistic, IMO.

I agree that if JP is F1, the edit was different because of the Bentley drama.

apenglishronzie wrote:Ok so I am a total newbie when it comes to Bachelorette postings, but I have watched all the seasons. This has probably been brought up before, but to me it seems like majority of the 2nd place guys often have some sort of emotional story. It's as though the producers realise the lead has chosen someone they have obvious chemistry with. It is then evident, that they need a filler character who the audience roots for to detract from the clear winner. Evidence for this would be Jason (single father Deanna's season) but she choose snowboarder Jesse,Chris ( dealing with grief over the passing of his mother Ali's season) Ali choose Roberto and now I feel like Ben may be occupying this dreaded position because IMO she has way more chemistry with JP, and in her PI's she says she has feelings for Ben the same way I say I ate Cheerios for breakfast. I guess we will have to wait and see but I hope it's JP!

P.S Is this the right place to post theories like this?

One of the best observations I have seen yet.

Lucas15 wrote:

apenglishronzie wrote:Ok so I am a total newbie when it comes to Bachelorette postings, but I have watched all the seasons. This has probably been brought up before, but to me it seems like majority of the 2nd place guys often have some sort of emotional story. It's as though the producers realise the lead has chosen someone they have obvious chemistry with. It is then evident, that they need a filler character who the audience roots for to detract from the clear winner. Evidence for this would be Jason (single father Deanna's season) but she choose snowboarder Jesse,Chris ( dealing with grief over the passing of his mother Ali's season) Ali choose Roberto and now I feel like Ben may be occupying this dreaded position because IMO she has way more chemistry with JP, and in her PI's she says she has feelings for Ben the same way I say I ate Cheerios for breakfast. I guess we will have to wait and see but I hope it's JP!

P.S Is this the right place to post theories like this?

One of the best observations I have seen yet.

and when you hear Ben's VO's, it sounds like he's reading it from a cue card, no emotion.... so i think their feelings for each other are mutual.

[quote="Lucas15"]

apenglishronzie wrote:Ok so I am a total newbie when it comes to Bachelorette postings, but I have watched all the seasons. This has probably been brought up before, but to me it seems like majority of the 2nd place guys often have some sort of emotional story. It's as though the producers realise the lead has chosen someone they have obvious chemistry with. It is then evident, that they need a filler character who the audience roots for to detract from the clear winner. Evidence for this would be Jason (single father Deanna's season) but she choose snowboarder Jesse,Chris ( dealing with grief over the passing of his mother Ali's season) Ali choose Roberto and now I feel like Ben may be occupying this dreaded position because IMO she has way more chemistry with JP, and in her PI's she says she has feelings for Ben the same way I say I ate Cheerios for breakfast. I guess we will have to wait and see but I hope it's JP!

P.S Is this the right place to post theories like this?

The bolded is hysterical!

sjcaligurl wrote:I'm so not concerned about 'the edit.' I picked up on a vibe between Jesse and DeAnna in episode 4 of her season so by the time it was down to the final 2, I knew he was going to be F1. By the FDs, her body language with Jesse was over the top and she had all but shut down with Jeremy and Jason.

I really like Ben but I'm just not seeing any kind of undercurrent between them beyond a cerebral connection. One of my favorite dates this season was the one between her and Ben in Phuket. The mental kiss was mocked on The View but I thought it was really cute. The setup for the evening part of the date, to me, was the most romantic ever. I just think it was ruined by the boring kisses and Ben's stiffness. In real life, how many boring kisses does one suffer through before you move on? LOL!

To me, I see red flags w/Ben that would bug me personally. That whole 'you've got me where you want me' thing just didn't sit well with me and his whole explanation behind how he was teetering on the edge of the l-bomb and what not. Maybe that's his style but it was weird to me. Then on the HTD, as nice as it was, that whole thing about 'you have to like each other or it won't work for me' (even with his explanation that once they saw them together and he told them about her) just bugged me too and it showed on her face when he said it. Add to it that she felt intimidated by Ben's family and things seemed rather stiff - even with his sister who admitted to having issues with some of his women ... I just think Ashley, since people label her as so insecure, subtracted a few points in her head where Ben was concerned. She said she enjoyed Constantine's date the most - mostly because of his family. I think she had the opposite experience with Ben's and I think Constantine might have moved ahead of him at that point. Ben openly vocalized conditions on whether he could love/accept her and that's not a good thing.

In Phuket she said that she felt that Ben really liked her ... With JP, she is doing exactly what Ali did which was wonder why a guy like him isn't already taken and how he could possibly be so into her. Despite how she says he makes her feel comfortable and safe, she's scared to believe it. I think she's used to being dominant in relationships and she's got JP so whipped, she has it with him but doesn't know it yet. It doesn't sound like she's had bad or torrent past relationships. I think she is used to guys like Ben and feels more in control with him - at least she did prior to meeting his stuffy family.

I think 'the edit' is taking a different turn this time because they allowed a different kind of guy to dominate the first half of the season. JP has been her rescuer and knight in shining armor whereas Ben as been mostly aloof about her traumatic dilemma. It's one thing to be the tortoise, as Ames was trying to be, because you have a plan. Ben is being a tortoise because he's been shut down and unable to give anything. Ashley went out of her way to be 100% available to JP (and 'the guys' I suppose) but Ben has been guardedly opening up, tearing down walls and becoming more available for HIMSELF not so much Ashley. Even if she picks Ben, I don't think this bodes well for them. I think the reason we didn't see more than the sad parts of Ben's date is because that is the core of his story - how this experience changes him. I don't think he gets or needs to get the girl in this story. This is a starting point for him so he can move forward from now on ... JP is taking the risk because he sees a future with Ashley and he wants it to work between them. Ben is taking the risk as a necessary step in his own healing.

Great well thought out post. What a pleasure to come here this morning and read something so well written and it makes sense to me.

Coastal wrote:

ironcat wrote:Honestly, if it weren't for my enjoyment of watching JP, and seeing him fall for Ashley, this season would have been a bust for me as far as entertainment. Boring dates for the most part. I commend all the non-JP fans for sticking it out actually, I wouldn't have.

I for one saw a different love story happening, equally as fixating to enjoy watching the show.

Sorry, I'm confused. I thought you said you were a neutral poster. If you were fixated by a love story, that doesn't sound very neutral or dispassionate to me.

sjcaligurl wrote:I'm so not concerned about 'the edit.' I picked up on a vibe between Jesse and DeAnna in episode 4 of her season so by the time it was down to the final 2, I knew he was going to be F1. By the FDs, her body language with Jesse was over the top and she had all but shut down with Jeremy and Jason.

I really like Ben but I'm just not seeing any kind of undercurrent between them beyond a cerebral connection. One of my favorite dates this season was the one between her and Ben in Phuket. The mental kiss was mocked on The View but I thought it was really cute. The setup for the evening part of the date, to me, was the most romantic ever. I just think it was ruined by the boring kisses and Ben's stiffness. In real life, how many boring kisses does one suffer through before you move on? LOL!

To me, I see red flags w/Ben that would bug me personally. That whole 'you've got me where you want me' thing just didn't sit well with me and his whole explanation behind how he was teetering on the edge of the l-bomb and what not. Maybe that's his style but it was weird to me. Then on the HTD, as nice as it was, that whole thing about 'you have to like each other or it won't work for me' (even with his explanation that once they saw them together and he told them about her) just bugged me too and it showed on her face when he said it. Add to it that she felt intimidated by Ben's family and things seemed rather stiff - even with his sister who admitted to having issues with some of his women ... I just think Ashley, since people label her as so insecure, subtracted a few points in her head where Ben was concerned. She said she enjoyed Constantine's date the most - mostly because of his family. I think she had the opposite experience with Ben's and I think Constantine might have moved ahead of him at that point. Ben openly vocalized conditions on whether he could love/accept her and that's not a good thing.

In Phuket she said that she felt that Ben really liked her ... With JP, she is doing exactly what Ali did which was wonder why a guy like him isn't already taken and how he could possibly be so into her. Despite how she says he makes her feel comfortable and safe, she's scared to believe it. I think she's used to being dominant in relationships and she's got JP so whipped, she has it with him but doesn't know it yet. It doesn't sound like she's had bad or torrent past relationships. I think she is used to guys like Ben and feels more in control with him - at least she did prior to meeting his stuffy family.

I think 'the edit' is taking a different turn this time because they allowed a different kind of guy to dominate the first half of the season. JP has been her rescuer and knight in shining armor whereas Ben as been mostly aloof about her traumatic dilemma. It's one thing to be the tortoise, as Ames was trying to be, because you have a plan. Ben is being a tortoise because he's been shut down and unable to give anything. Ashley went out of her way to be 100% available to JP (and 'the guys' I suppose) but Ben has been guardedly opening up, tearing down walls and becoming more available for HIMSELF not so much Ashley. Even if she picks Ben, I don't think this bodes well for them. I think the reason we didn't see more than the sad parts of Ben's date is because that is the core of his story - how this experience changes him. I don't think he gets or needs to get the girl in this story. This is a starting point for him so he can move forward from now on ... JP is taking the risk because he sees a future with Ashley and he wants it to work between them. Ben is taking the risk as a necessary step in his own healing.

Um. Do you know how amazing you are?

I agree with every single word, especially that Ben doesn't really care *all* that much about getting Ashley in the end, which isn't a bad thing at all. Not everyone is everyone's cup of tea. I think this show has helped him heal and he's ready to move on to something better.

pbmax wrote:

Reidiscool wrote:

Pattycake92 wrote:What was it that Ashley said about JP after their first conversation? Something about him calling her cupcake?

Something like.."he's cute but I'm not sure he'll be the one calling me cupcake in the end"

LOL! That comment struck me when I heard it.

This part is not in reply to your post. She gave him another date because she felt bad that she was in a funk on their first date. She was trying to make it up to him.

I know if I'm into a guy initially, first night, and I'm really positive that the majority too...won't be carrying on over another guy. That initial, first night guy will have my focus.

This is all well and good when you're dating in the real, normal world. Unless you have been a contestant on this show, or more specifically the lead on this show, you have no idea how you really would react in similar circumstances.

pbmax wrote:

Beeleever wrote:First of all, sushifan... :brav:

As far as Ashley wanting to shut down production...heck yeah! After her night with JP in Hong Kong, the girl was done. When JP told her "when you feel this way about someone, that changes everything", she immediately got up to go get him the GDR.

Yes, she signed up for it, but her feelings for JP changed everything. JMHO.

CH says:

As you saw in the preview things come to a head and unravel in a major way next week. We’ve had so-called bad guys or villains on this show before but we’ve never had anything like this. What you will see next week will easily be one of the most talked about moments ever. There won’t be one viewer that won’t have a very strong opinion about what unfolds. We’ve had plenty of dramatic moments over the years and I even joke about using that word all the time. This is different and it is nothing to joke about. You will see the wheels completely come off this ride for Ashley – so much so we came very close to having to shut down production on our show. There was a very real chance that Ashley was done and so was this season. It was a mess, and you will see every bit of it next Monday night. I know many of you will have a lot to say about Bentley and this episode and what’s to come, and I look forward to reading them all.

This was the storyline for the show, especially the first half of it, so of course CH is going to make it sound as dramatic and extreme as possible. And I still say that many things factored into Ashley's devastation at that point in time, if indeed, it was so great that they considered shutting down production (and CH may have meant shutting it down for a few hours or for a day, not for the rest of filming, but it sounds far more dramatic to imply the latter, doesn't it?). The morning that Bentley left unexpectedly, Ash had just, the day before, gone through a very difficult group date, on which she was made fun of "en masse" by the guys (no matter how good a sport one is, that's gotta sting), but moreseo, 2 of the guys she really liked, William and Ryan, acted in ways that made her doubt/question her pick of them as frontrunners, William with his childish comments and behavior at the roast, and Ryan with his makeout "attack", that really turned her off physically. With those things already bothering her, and making her wonder if she could really trust her own judgment/instincts on these guys, Bentley (who she was totally confident really liked her) leaving was just the straw that broke the camel's back. Within a day, 3 of her initial 4 top picks were out of the running, and all she was left with was a guy she had a "feeling" about, but hadn't, to that point, even gone on one date with, solo or group. No wonder her confidence in her ability to fulfill her duties as the lead was shaken to the core. All of those things factored into her breakdown, not just Bentley.

pbmax wrote:

LibbyBell wrote:

pbmax wrote:No matter how the lead may feel about one, they still have a show to carry. They can't say this is the one and quit, not gonna happen. Even though she may have wanted to stop. Not saying she didn't like JP even a little bit, but he wasn't her initial guy. Like I always say, I watch, I don't come to my conclusion with just edit, I add it all up. I didn't think she was that into Bentley, I guess mainly because I knew he left. Watching her closely and realizing that she was more into Bentley than I thought. Let's be honest can you truely say if Bentley had told Ashley that he wanted her and wanted to stay, would she have told him no. The leads always fall early and will pick that person unless something goes wrong. If Bentley didn't mean much, then she should have gotten pass him after he left, not lingering around in her mind 4 cities later, after all JP was there. Love should happen naturally, meaning it should just hit you, come out of nowhere, not forcing yourself. When Bentley left, that left her having to turn around and put energy into trying to feel like she was beginning to with Bentley. I don't think she was into any of the others either including Ben, not just JP. I also feel that they wasn't really into her either. That includes Ryan too, I think his goal was bachelor. I don't believe there is a F1 but if there is, then it's JP, because she says I have someone in mind to pick, not encouraging words, imo. Sounds like since Bentley's gone I'll choose this person because I know I have to pick someone. Majority of the time that kind of relationship doesn't work. I just don't see a love story, she's just been too much in a funk to me. JMO.

You know, I keep going to CH saying emphatically-- we almost had to shut down production several times/we didn't think she'd make it through. I am positive that Ashley was not all that concerned about "B"; she just wasn't. I'm wondering if she might not have wanted to continue once she was fairly certain of her choice. I know that this won't be too popular of a theory with many but, again, I think that while Ashley was upset by "B" leaving, he was at best one of her final 2. She did not have time to decide that he was the one during the time that the first 2 episodes was filming. Once she had made her decision, we know that she did not like leading on the rest of the guys and had such a hard time letting them go. It's not fair, I hate this, crying etc... this didn't refer to letting a specific guy go, it was about having to keep them and encourage their feelings just to let them go. IMO

I'm sorry if I'm trying to stick a pin in the bubble, but I just have to call it as I see it. Ashley signed on the dotted line to do this show, that means she knew she would have to pretend. So I find it hard to believe that she would want to stop production because she didn't want to pretend any longer.

Okay let's take it back to some past season. Andrew Firestone had one to leave, he said he understood. We didn't get any production shut-down talk, nor any crying.

Jesse Palmer had one to leave, he didn't want her to leave but he understood. We didn't get any production shut-down talk, nor any crying.

Byron had one to leave, said she was still in love with her ex. He said he understood. We didn't get any production shut-down talk, nor crying.

Jen, Fabrice told her he could not marry her, she understood. We didn't get any production shut-down talk, nor crying (laughing).

Jake, one was asked to leave. We didn't even get a production shut-down there, nor crying.

Brad 2 Madison left, Brad wanted her to stay but he understood. We didn't get a production shut-down, nor crying.

DeAnna had one to leave, even though they had it as if she sent him away. Oh but we did have production shut-down talk...and lots of crying. We had moping and still talking about Graham. We had "I think my husband is here" talk too. We even got a F1. How did that turn out.

Short of a true tragedy--and I mean a real one, not a CH contrived one--I can not see production shutting down. (death, severe illness, freak of nature)