Episode 12 - 8/1 After the Final Rose - Discussion - Spoilers

You know, I keep going to CH saying emphatically-- we almost had to shut down production several times/we didn't think she'd make it through. I am positive that Ashley was not all that concerned about "B"; she just wasn't. I'm wondering if she might not have wanted to continue once she was fairly certain of her choice. I know that this won't be too popular of a theory with many but, again, I think that while Ashley was upset by "B" leaving, he was at best one of her final 2. She did not have time to decide that he was the one during the time that the first 2 episodes was filming. Once she had made her decision, we know that she did not like leading on the rest of the guys and had such a hard time letting them go. It's not fair, I hate this, crying etc... this didn't refer to letting a specific guy go, it was about having to keep them and encourage their feelings just to let them go. IMO

richlp wrote:

You know, I keep going to CH saying emphatically-- we almost had to shut down production several times/we didn't think she'd make it through. I am positive that Ashley was not all that concerned about "B"; she just wasn't. I'm wondering if she might not have wanted to continue once she was fairly certain of her choice. I know that this won't be too popular of a theory with many but, again, I think that while Ashley was upset by "B" leaving, he was at best one of her final 2. She did not have time to decide that he was the one during the time that the first 2 episodes was filming. Once she had made her decision, we know that she did not like leading on the rest of the guys and had such a hard time letting them go. It's not fair, I hate this, crying etc... this didn't refer to letting a specific guy go, it was about having to keep them and encourage their feelings just to let them go. IMO

Just throwing this out here... during filming in Thailand, there was a massive Typhoon blowing through, I remember reading about it at the time...

He could be referring to that 'shutting down production'... you know how they like to misdirect...

Beeleever wrote:First of all, sushifan... :brav:

As far as Ashley wanting to shut down production...heck yeah! After her night with JP in Hong Kong, the girl was done. When JP told her "when you feel this way about someone, that changes everything", she immediately got up to go get him the GDR.

Yes, she signed up for it, but her feelings for JP changed everything. JMHO.

cupcakes wrote:

Coastal wrote:

bing2262 wrote:

bluwavz wrote:

Kelad9 wrote:

albean99 wrote:

JBF wrote:

Diana wrote: think her top 4 for the first night were JP, ..., Will and Ryan

What makes the situation so bad is that she does not PI about Ben that first episode. He comments on HER though. The ones she discusses on screen are Ryan, JP, Willie, Bentley, drunk Tim and Jeff. This, for me, was the first red flag against Ben being final 1. You would think they would include SOME comment suggesting that she remembered their conversation.

On the plus side, we DID see his 1 on 1 with her. Ames' was missing and Constantine's was an "extra" deleted scene.

It all depends what edit they're going for with Ben if he's the f1. It's not usual but everyone keeps saying this season is different and it is in a way because the Bentley drama went on for so long and she gave him so much of her attention. If Ben's the f2 it's just as important to show him as the alternative from early on. It's possible Ben's getting the slow burning love edit, the dark horse who slowly but surely wins her heart, the Tortoise and the Hare --- take your pick. We do have some indication about it from some DH comments.

Thanks for explaining, GrahamGal. When you said he got a group date rose I was thinking about the one he got alone. We can't say for sure that Ben didn't get time with Ashley or a kiss either time because we didn't see it but it appeared that everyone got time with her. When was it he said he'd kissed Ashley to JP & Blake?

I think he said it to JP in the Las Vegas episode but I'm not positive. So he's at least been with her before episode 4 but TPTB chose not to show that kiss. Can someone with a better memory help me out here?

I thought he said it to JP in episode 4 before the group date (please correct me if I'm wrong) and they were both talking with Blake about Ashley possibly kissing Constantine. It's not clear whether or not Ben was just joking with JP or if he really did kiss her.

Yes, this is correct. Ben ,I think jokingly told JP and Blake that he also kissed Ashley and Blake said to him" you are full of s__t. ,This was the same segment where JP admitted to the 2 guys that he is "on the way" of falling in love w Ashley and Ben said to him that he is seeing it happen and advised JP not to think too much abt other guys kissing Ashley or he will drive himself crazy. It is clear that JP was more emotionally invested by episode 4 compared to the other guys and the guys sees it and they like to tease /rag JP abt it.

Which is quite typical of a F2 edit thing.........the editors leaving that in, the jealousy, the quickness of the attraction on his part..........very typical F2, IMO

I have enjoyed reading your posts on why Ben could be final one.... but I was wondering if you see any signs/clues that JP could possibly be final one? Or does everything point to him being final two.

pbmax wrote:

sydney1 wrote:

pbmax wrote:

Reidiscool wrote:

Pattycake92 wrote:What was it that Ashley said about JP after their first conversation? Something about him calling her cupcake?

Something like.."he's cute but I'm not sure he'll be the one calling me cupcake in the end"

LOL! That comment struck me when I heard it.

This part is not in reply to your post. She gave him another date because she felt bad that she was in a funk on their first date. She was trying to make it up to him.
I know if I'm into a guy initially, first night, and I'm really positive that the majority too...won't be carrying on over another guy. That initial, first night guy will have my focus.

So you think she was just being nice and was not really into him, that is a different position, never thought about it that way. If that was true, why do you think she shared so much of the Bently stuff with him. I see your point and anything is possible, but I just don't believe Ashley was as into Bentley as was shown. Yes, she liked him and wanted him because she was told she could not have him. It was not real and I think she had to do what she did to get it out of her system. In the meantime she was going on flirting and testing the water with other guys, JP included. I do believe JP was on her radar from the first night , but Bentley was more of a challenge and she had to try that first. I do believe you can be interested in more than one person at a time. They just fill different needs at that time. Now , Ashley is at the finish line and she is putting it all together. I think Ashley is a very physical person and she will pick someone who she has a strong physical relationship with. I see a physical relationship with both. In the end it is Ashley decision and there are things we don't see but only going by what we think and the edit we are being shown.

Now having said all that, my personal pick for Ashley is JP. JP and Ashley appear to be on the same page in their life right now. They share the look, you know the one I am talking about.imo I don't think Ashley is a good fit for Ben. It is not just about Ben is this great guy, and they are cute together. They are at two different places in their life right now. After the HTD, I believe Ashley has given Ben the greatest gift she can give him. She gave him the ability to open himself again and realize that he can love. However, he may be her F1 and if he is I wish them the best. I do believe they really like each other, I just don't think it is love. jmo

No matter how the lead may feel about one, they still have a show to carry. They can't say this is the one and quit, not gonna happen. Even though she may have wanted to stop. Not saying she didn't like JP even a little bit, but he wasn't her initial guy. Like I always say, I watch, I don't come to my conclusion with just edit, I add it all up. I didn't think she was that into Bentley, I guess mainly because I knew he left. Watching her closely and realizing that she was more into Bentley than I thought. Let's be honest can you truely say if Bentley had told Ashley that he wanted her and wanted to stay, would she have told him no. The leads always fall early and will pick that person unless something goes wrong. If Bentley didn't mean much, then she should have gotten pass him after he left, not lingering around in her mind 4 cities later, after all JP was there. Love should happen naturally, meaning it should just hit you, come out of nowhere, not forcing yourself. When Bentley left, that left her having to turn around and put energy into trying to feel like she was beginning to with Bentley. I don't think she was into any of the others either including Ben, not just JP. I also feel that they wasn't really into her either. That includes Ryan too, I think his goal was bachelor. I don't believe there is a F1 but if there is, then it's JP, because she says I have someone in mind to pick, not encouraging words, imo. Sounds like since Bentley's gone I'll choose this person because I know I have to pick someone. Majority of the time that kind of relationship doesn't work. I just don't see a love story, she's just been too much in a funk to me. JMO.

sjcaligurl wrote:

Coastal wrote:

philphan wrote:I must be an old stick in the mud. I didn't really find this season that boring. I finally saw a love story develop in front of my eyes and saw people having real conversation and doing things that they would do in real life. I will say that some of the dates were a little ridiculous though. Not a big fan of the boxing date or wedding photos date either.

I guess for ME it's not the adrenaline dates....it's the storyline that builds with the F1/F2 that makes for a good show. Fleiss was generous to us in that respect this season.

That is one thing that also tends to make me believe that JP isn't the F1 as that rarely happens.

The adrenaline dates just started with Jason's season and given that only Ali and Roberto have emerged since then as successful, I don't see where it bonds them anymore than not having them bonded Trista and Ryan. Neither Ashley nor JP strike me as adrenaline junkies. Most people aren't. I like these 'boring' dates as they seem to be more like real life. Given the places they traveled this time, there may have been some restrictions on those types of things. They weren't in 'Western' nations where that kind of thing is semi-popular.

sushifan wrote:Since it's that time of the season, when everyone has run out of things to sleuth and instead is arguing why the edit points to his/her favorite, I thought this bore reminding:

It is a mistake to "sleuth" from the edit. We've seen enough seasons of this show to know there are no static F1 or F2 boxes. The edit is a chimera, fashioned from pieces of the personalities they get every season. Not only that, but we all read different things into the edit based upon our personalities, culture, relationship history, etc. -- and once we pick a favorite based upon those things, we then have a further vested interest in our horse winning, because it validates our perspective on things. Not the most objective way to assess a situation!

Let me give you an example from my field: there was a well-publicized study done on lawyers, in which a group of people was divided up into two sections, and each person assigned the role of plaintiff's or defendant's counsel. Everyone was then given the EXACT SAME FACTS to read -- word for word -- and asked who they thought would win. Surprise! The people who were assigned the role of plaintiff's counsel overwhelmingly thought plaintiff would win, and defendant's counsel were similarly convinced for the defendant.

In TB, as in law, we pick a "winner" and then filter everything we see, through that lens. The edit is NOT evidence of who wins. This is an entertainment show, the goal of which is to generate ratings, not a love story for all the ages. At this point, TB has been around for-freaking-ever: its ability to survive and generate ratings season after season depends on its ability to shake things up and keep it fresh. So if you're going off what happened in last season's edit, or the season before, or even way back to the Ultimate Grand D-Bag Alex Michel with the whipped cream in the fantasy suite (god help me for remembering that), you're at best taking a guess, just like the unspoiled masses who watch this show for fun.

So remember, folks, at this point in the season everyone who cares to has picked their "horse" and sees everything through that lens. It's also worth repeating that the edited version of what we see on our screens has very little relation to the actual personalities behind the edit -- so the "horse" you've picked onscreen may be a complete horse's ass in real life. The opposite also can be true. I'd hate to be judged on the worst sixty seconds of my day, you know? Nor would it be fair of me to be judged on the best sixty seconds. I'm a well-meaning but flawed person, just like most people out there.

And just to be fair, I'll show my cards: I watched the beginning of this season unspoiled, to see if I could pick the winner. At the end of the first episode, I picked JP and Ames as the final two, with Ashley feeling torn between her head (Ames, Ivy League, great on paper) and heart (JP, construction, good chemistry). I had Ben F. in my top four, based purely upon the fact that I thought he was hot and I'm kind of a recovering lush who really likes good wine. 8)

Speaking of which, I'm going to pour myself a glass and go to bed. Happy watching, everyone!

JBF wrote:It is true that this forum is a sea of bouncing pink cupcakes and it is easy for some of us to suffer tooth decay without an Ashley or Blake to come to our rescue…

However, if JP is left heartbroken at the end of this, viewers will need an explanation for the three weeks of Bentley and three more weeks of Bentley Talk. JP gets her out of Bentley Funk, just so she can do the same to him? Talk about running the lead under the bus!

Now, it wouldn’t shock me if Fleiss does something like this, just that it doesn’t appear financially viable to the series, sponsor-wise. There were many like me who were hardly supportive of Jillian dumping Reid, but at least we got to see him gain the confidence to try, try again… and he did come out as a hero. Ali’s season was rocked by a Chris L. versus Roberto battle, but nobody is complaining now with the end result. (Only Chris may hit the altar first… as is the case with most Final Twos.) Just can’t see how any non-JP ending would please the masses unless his edit really takes a nose-dive a.k.a. Amazing Race style (the show full of surprises like missed airplanes).

Of course, Chris Harrison will hint a bumpy road to the finish in his interviews, with Chrystie Conflict on the horizon. This will just be added to BentleyGate, Taiwan “What the f$%# is going on” drama and the other “bumps” we have seen. That is why we needed our extra carbs during hometown.

Good ol’ Bentley told us all: Heartbreak is worse than any illness in my opinion. It’s not just physical pain, it is emotional pain, but it has to happen

Jordan told Ashley: At the end of all this, someone… someone’s heart is going to be broken, but unless I completely… completely put myself out there and expose my vulnerability and allow myself to get hurt, there is no way that we could ever work…

Well… remember he left in the “we” as the goal here.

I can hear the Rocky theme blaring… Maybe Stallone lost, but he still got his woman, so we can’t go there with this comparison.

I think Benny Boy will survive all of this in flying colors (and increased wine sales):

Barbara: I’ve been hoping that this has been a good experience…
Ben: This is one of the best experiences of my life. It’s changed from just being an adventure to actually having feelings for this girl. She’s incredible. She’s really great and I haven’t told her that I love her. I’m not forcing anything, but I told her that I like her and I like her a lot… and I like where things are going with her… and, watching you and dad, y’know, being married all those years is something that myself and Julia have always talked about wanting to model. Y’know, dating Ashley, um, has been an eye opening experience. There were times when I’ve been looking back on the first couple years after Dad died and how I should have been a better son and I should have done things differently… and I have regrets about those things. I have come to terms with those and I realized them. I should have been there more in the beginning.
Barbara: We all were having our own separate hurts individually and I think you were really coping with it the best you could.
Ben: I should have done it differently. I should have…
Barbara: But remember that’s the past…
Ben: It is.
Barbara: It’s nice that you acknowledged that. I really appreciate it. I think that Dad is really looking down on us. It’s his birthday tomorrow… and, you know, he’s probably thinking “Well done”.
Ben: We’re doing OK.
Barbara: And I think he’d be proud of you. I really do.

His heartbreak is over. Moving on to Britt, now that the walls are down.

If not Britt, then 25 brunettes with things goin’on.

Michelle Money (last season watching their yacht date): Britt and Brad. Although it sounds really cute, not only do I not see them getting married, I don’t know if I see them friending each other on facebook. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yZe7e6sPiPQ

What about Britt and Ben? She got a yacht date and took the leap into the ocean. If Benny does the same, they will be on the right track… er… splash.