Andi Dorfman & Josh Murray - Bachelorette 10 - General Discussion #2

stuckinsc wrote:

I am curious about the JPG comments.  Is it that JPG said what he did that makes him not a good person or is the action?  Because this is what Andi did with Nick and while not quite as blunt as saying I like screwing, but I don't love you, saying I don't love you I never loved you to someone you had sex with is a very similar action.  So if it is the words that make JPG a not good person who should not in Josh's presence okay, but truly the actions and almost the words of Andi are not far off from what JPG did and said.

If Claire hadn't "outed" JPG regarding their level of intimacy, no one else would have known.  It was her choice to tell the world she had sex with JPG.  She then chose to continue pursuing a relationship with him even after he told her how he felt (or didn't feel) about her.  It was painfully clear that it was just sex, nothing more.  She wasn't seeking answers from him after the show - she already had them.  It seemed she was just making sure her spot on BIP was secured.

JPG and Andi behaved quite similarly in the FS with their F2.  The main difference to me is that Nick made it clear to Andi that he loved her & the importance he placed on the actual act.  Based on how Nick behaved on the ATFR show - as detailed so eloquently below - it's clear he was seeking answers and didn't know how Andi felt when she had sex with him.

Many F2s or F3s question the lead in ways that make them uncomfortable.  AshLee with Sean, Ben with Ash, Matthew with Meredith, etc.  Goes with the big ol' paycheck the lead receives.

I do personally think if Nick had acted differently at the ATFR, then things would have been different in general.

I always look back on Sean's season in comparison with Andi's. Obviously way different for many obvious reasons, but I always thought Sean and Andi were similar in that they both really, really liked their F2's, but they fell in love with their F1's and it was just more right. Sean looked scared to death when Lindsay first came out on that stage. It looked like his eyes were going to pop out of his head he looked so nervous. The second Lindsay sat down, started asking him questions, and repeatedly said she was so thankful for the experience and happy that Sean found love and was doing well, you could just see Sean calm down and was able to respond to her.

Andi didn't get that with Nick. From the moment Andi stepped on the stage, Nick was shaking, timid, mumbling, and could barely form sentences. Not to mention Andi was well aware that Nick wanted a second chance. Even when you take out Nick trying to contact Andi - once while she was on vacation with Josh in Mexico, posting pictures to IG and Twitter, etc. that letter in itself must have been a "holy crap" moment. Andi was engaged to someone else and was living with him for the past two months. Lets not forget Andi watched back the season. I think it was a mixture of producers and also just Nick's personality, but he was over confident and arrogant. He was talking about how in the race it was him and everyone else was below him.

I just personally think if Nick took the approach of someone like Lindsay, things would have been different. He had the opportunity to ask questions, but he mumbled the whole time. The only coherent and full sentence he strung together involved Andi having sex with him. Regardless, I thought Andi handled what she was given pretty well. She told him the truth, admitted her mistake of not telling him this sooner, but stated they had a great relationship and she cared for him, but she fell in love with someone else and that one relationship was more right. There's not much more you can do there.

That very awkward sit down between the lead and F2 goes both ways. The lead and the F2 need to both give. Everyone watching that ATFR with me felt extremely uncomfortable watching Nick. I could imagine Andi would have felt even more than that.

Ash2214 wrote:I do personally think if Nick had acted differently at the ATFR, then things would have been different in general.

I always look back on Sean's season in comparison with Andi's. Obviously way different for many obvious reasons, but I always thought Sean and Andi were similar in that they both really, really liked their F2's, but they fell in love with their F1's and it was just more right.... snipped

Sorry I couldn't disagree with you more. Andi's F2 was part of the act, and nothing more. As many of her supporters have stated over and over, Josh was her pick out of the limo. The rest, was, the show must go on and she played her part. Anyone that gives her a hard time, she deals with it by lashing out and making it their problem. Similar to Josh's attitude now.

Besides, Sean didn't have sex with Lindsay, he respected the meaning of sex, similar to Andi's F2.

What I find interesting is there aren't any pics of the two of them together at the wedding Andi was a BM for. Wouldn't it be comical if the groom didn't like Josh and he wasn't invited? Karma. I'm sure there's a logical explanation.

Ash2214 wrote:I do personally think if Nick had acted differently at the ATFR, then things would have been different in general.

I always look back on Sean's season in comparison with Andi's. Obviously way different for many obvious reasons, but I always thought Sean and Andi were similar in that they both really, really liked their F2's, but they fell in love with their F1's and it was just more right. Sean looked scared to death when Lindsay first came out on that stage. It looked like his eyes were going to pop out of his head he looked so nervous. The second Lindsay sat down, started asking him questions, and repeatedly said she was so thankful for the experience and happy that Sean found love and was doing well, you could just see Sean calm down and was able to respond to her.

Andi didn't get that with Nick. From the moment Andi stepped on the stage, Nick was shaking, timid, mumbling, and could barely form sentences. Not to mention Andi was well aware that Nick wanted a second chance. Even when you take out Nick trying to contact Andi - once while she was on vacation with Josh in Mexico, posting pictures to IG and Twitter, etc. that letter in itself must have been a "holy crap" moment. Andi was engaged to someone else and was living with him for the past two months. Lets not forget Andi watched back the season. I think it was a mixture of producers and also just Nick's personality, but he was over confident and arrogant. He was talking about how in the race it was him and everyone else was below him.

I just personally think if Nick took the approach of someone like Lindsay, things would have been different. He had the opportunity to ask questions, but he mumbled the whole time. The only coherent and full sentence he strung together involved Andi having sex with him. Regardless, I thought Andi handled what she was given pretty well. She told him the truth, admitted her mistake of not telling him this sooner, but stated they had a great relationship and she cared for him, but she fell in love with someone else and that one relationship was more right. There's not much more you can do there.

That very awkward sit down between the lead and F2 goes both ways. The lead and the F2 need to both give. Everyone watching that ATFR with me felt extremely uncomfortable watching Nick. I could imagine Andi would have felt even more than that.

We have very different recollections of Sean's ATFR with Lindsey.

To me, this whole thing comes back to sex in the FS. If you have it with more than one person, you best be prepared to deal with the consequences of those actions.

^ While I do think Andi knew Josh would be her F1 out of the limo, that doesn't mean that I can't think she liked Nick. I actually really thought she tried her hardest in her head to make Nick be her F1. I truly think she did. There were only two guys from week 2 that I saw her truly connect with and they were Josh and Nick. No one else came close.

You can love someone deeply without having sex with them. Sean and Catherine are a good example of that. Just because Sean and Lindsay didn't have sex doesn't mean that Lindsay didn't love him. I know there can be different views of it and regardless of what Sean truly meant by it, as he was breaking up with her he told her he loved her. Like I said, that could have meant he just loved her as a person, but I would most definitely say that would have been confusing as all hell. Nothing like hearing "I love you and that's why this is so hard" during a break up. I would certainly have questions. Lindsay didn't try to contact Sean. She didn't post love tweets or pictures to her IG. Lindsay didn't write him a love letter asking for a second chance. She walked up to him on the ATFR and told him how happy she was for me and thankful for the experience and then asked him questions.

As for the wedding, they don't need to post pictures together with every event they attend. It's possible Josh was there and they just didn't post a picture together. We know Josh was apparently visiting a friend in Jacksonville, Florida on Thursday. Perhaps Josh already had this weekend planned and couldn't attend the wedding. When I was a bridesmaid in my cousin's wedding my boyfriend didn't want to attend because the only other people he would know would have been my brothers who were groomsmen and my parents who would have been have been with my other family members. It's a busy weekend when you're in the wedding party. Since my boyfriend didn't know anyone and I was in the wedding party, he decided to not go. Perhaps Josh had similar thinking in that Andi would be busy all weekend and he didn't know anyone else there. There are a lot of possibilities.

Considering Josh follows the bride and groom on social media and they follow Josh, I'm sure all is well and the groom likes Josh.

umngirl wrote:

Ash2214 wrote:I do personally think if Nick had acted differently at the ATFR, then things would have been different in general.

I always look back on Sean's season in comparison with Andi's. Obviously way different for many obvious reasons, but I always thought Sean and Andi were similar in that they both really, really liked their F2's, but they fell in love with their F1's and it was just more right. Sean looked scared to death when Lindsay first came out on that stage. It looked like his eyes were going to pop out of his head he looked so nervous. The second Lindsay sat down, started asking him questions, and repeatedly said she was so thankful for the experience and happy that Sean found love and was doing well, you could just see Sean calm down and was able to respond to her.

Andi didn't get that with Nick. From the moment Andi stepped on the stage, Nick was shaking, timid, mumbling, and could barely form sentences. Not to mention Andi was well aware that Nick wanted a second chance. Even when you take out Nick trying to contact Andi - once while she was on vacation with Josh in Mexico, posting pictures to IG and Twitter, etc. that letter in itself must have been a "holy crap" moment. Andi was engaged to someone else and was living with him for the past two months. Lets not forget Andi watched back the season. I think it was a mixture of producers and also just Nick's personality, but he was over confident and arrogant. He was talking about how in the race it was him and everyone else was below him.

I just personally think if Nick took the approach of someone like Lindsay, things would have been different. He had the opportunity to ask questions, but he mumbled the whole time. The only coherent and full sentence he strung together involved Andi having sex with him. Regardless, I thought Andi handled what she was given pretty well. She told him the truth, admitted her mistake of not telling him this sooner, but stated they had a great relationship and she cared for him, but she fell in love with someone else and that one relationship was more right. There's not much more you can do there.

That very awkward sit down between the lead and F2 goes both ways. The lead and the F2 need to both give. Everyone watching that ATFR with me felt extremely uncomfortable watching Nick. I could imagine Andi would have felt even more than that.

We have very different recollections of Sean's ATFR with Lindsey.

To me, this whole thing comes back to sex in the FS. If you have it with more than one person, you best be prepared to deal with the consequences of those actions.

Of course we do.

I saw a guy that looked nervous. I can still picture CH asking him if he was ready and Sean looked terrified. Once she came out and was asking questions I thought he calmed down and they both looked comfortable. Every lead looks nervous before the F2 comes out. What's wrong in saying Sean seemed nervous and eventually calmed down? That's just human nature. That's why I said it's a two way street. Both the lead and the F2 need to give to each other in a very awkward situation. I just personally didn't think Nick gave Andi much to work with.

GuardianAngel wrote:

Ash2214 wrote:I do personally think if Nick had acted differently at the ATFR, then things would have been different in general.

I always look back on Sean's season in comparison with Andi's. Obviously way different for many obvious reasons, but I always thought Sean and Andi were similar in that they both really, really liked their F2's, but they fell in love with their F1's and it was just more right.... snipped

Sorry I couldn't disagree with you more. Andi's F2 was part of the act, and nothing more. As many of her supporters have stated over and over, Josh was her pick out of the limo. The rest, was, the show must go on and she played her part. Anyone that gives her a hard time, she deals with it by lashing out and making it their problem. Similar to Josh's attitude now.

Besides, Sean didn't have sex with Lindsay, he respected the meaning of sex, similar to Andi's F2.

What I find interesting is there aren't any pics of the two of them together at the wedding Andi was a BM for. Wouldn't it be comical if the groom didn't like Josh and he wasn't invited? Karma. I'm sure there's a logical explanation.

Could not of said it better GA ....There is another difference that I see with Nick and Sean compared to Andi and Josh . Sean and Nick both are classy men that care about other people and their feelings. It is so obvious now that Andi and Josh only think of themselves . It is sad that Josh has stooped to Andi's level.

Ash2214 wrote:I do personally think if Nick had acted differently at the ATFR, then things would have been different in general.

I always look back on Sean's season in comparison with Andi's. Obviously way different for many obvious reasons, but I always thought Sean and Andi were similar in that they both really, really liked their F2's, but they fell in love with their F1's and it was just more right. Sean looked scared to death when Lindsay first came out on that stage. It looked like his eyes were going to pop out of his head he looked so nervous. The second Lindsay sat down, started asking him questions, and repeatedly said she was so thankful for the experience and happy that Sean found love and was doing well, you could just see Sean calm down and was able to respond to her.

Andi didn't get that with Nick. From the moment Andi stepped on the stage, Nick was shaking, timid, mumbling, and could barely form sentences. Not to mention Andi was well aware that Nick wanted a second chance. Even when you take out Nick trying to contact Andi - once while she was on vacation with Josh in Mexico, posting pictures to IG and Twitter, etc. that letter in itself must have been a "holy crap" moment. Andi was engaged to someone else and was living with him for the past two months. Lets not forget Andi watched back the season. I think it was a mixture of producers and also just Nick's personality, but he was over confident and arrogant. He was talking about how in the race it was him and everyone else was below him.

I just personally think if Nick took the approach of someone like Lindsay, things would have been different. He had the opportunity to ask questions, but he mumbled the whole time. The only coherent and full sentence he strung together involved Andi having sex with him. Regardless, I thought Andi handled what she was given pretty well. She told him the truth, admitted her mistake of not telling him this sooner, but stated they had a great relationship and she cared for him, but she fell in love with someone else and that one relationship was more right. There's not much more you can do there.

That very awkward sit down between the lead and F2 goes both ways. The lead and the F2 need to both give. Everyone watching that ATFR with me felt extremely uncomfortable watching Nick. I could imagine Andi would have felt even more than that.

Contrary to what others have said, I do think she fell in love with Nick - but it never developed to the point where she loved him or was in love with him to the point where she wanted to marry him. Remember when CH asked her if she was falling in love with more than one person she admitted she was. We have to remember as well that Andi always said it was a struggle between her head and her heart. And while I disagree with her actions of having sex with NIck, because I myself waited until I was married, in HER mind, she needed to have sex to see if she can feel and reach to the point where she could marry him. For HER having sex would have been her AHA moment. Let's remember the FS changed everything for her with JPG so she wanted to go through the "whole process" to test her feelings. And perhaps after having sex with Nick, IMO, she realized that the feelings she felt were not the "great love" that she desired. And so she went with Josh who she fought feelings for all along, but she couldn't deny them anymore when he told her he loved her.

Ash2214 wrote:

umngirl wrote:

Ash2214 wrote:I do personally think if Nick had acted differently at the ATFR, then things would have been different in general.

I always look back on Sean's season in comparison with Andi's. Obviously way different for many obvious reasons, but I always thought Sean and Andi were similar in that they both really, really liked their F2's, but they fell in love with their F1's and it was just more right. Sean looked scared to death when Lindsay first came out on that stage. It looked like his eyes were going to pop out of his head he looked so nervous. The second Lindsay sat down, started asking him questions, and repeatedly said she was so thankful for the experience and happy that Sean found love and was doing well, you could just see Sean calm down and was able to respond to her.

Andi didn't get that with Nick. From the moment Andi stepped on the stage, Nick was shaking, timid, mumbling, and could barely form sentences. Not to mention Andi was well aware that Nick wanted a second chance. Even when you take out Nick trying to contact Andi - once while she was on vacation with Josh in Mexico, posting pictures to IG and Twitter, etc. that letter in itself must have been a "holy crap" moment. Andi was engaged to someone else and was living with him for the past two months. Lets not forget Andi watched back the season. I think it was a mixture of producers and also just Nick's personality, but he was over confident and arrogant. He was talking about how in the race it was him and everyone else was below him.

I just personally think if Nick took the approach of someone like Lindsay, things would have been different. He had the opportunity to ask questions, but he mumbled the whole time. The only coherent and full sentence he strung together involved Andi having sex with him. Regardless, I thought Andi handled what she was given pretty well. She told him the truth, admitted her mistake of not telling him this sooner, but stated they had a great relationship and she cared for him, but she fell in love with someone else and that one relationship was more right. There's not much more you can do there.

That very awkward sit down between the lead and F2 goes both ways. The lead and the F2 need to both give. Everyone watching that ATFR with me felt extremely uncomfortable watching Nick. I could imagine Andi would have felt even more than that.

We have very different recollections of Sean's ATFR with Lindsey.

To me, this whole thing comes back to sex in the FS. If you have it with more than one person, you best be prepared to deal with the consequences of those actions.

Of course we do.

I saw a guy that looked nervous. I can still picture CH asking him if he was ready and Sean looked terrified. Once she came out and was asking questions I thought he calmed down and they both looked comfortable. Every lead looks nervous before the F2 comes out. What's wrong in saying Sean seemed nervous and eventually calmed down? That's just human nature. That's why I said it's a two way street. Both the lead and the F2 need to give to each other in a very awkward situation. I just personally didn't think Nick gave Andi much to work with.

I saw him looking slightly nervous but not "scared to death" as you stated and like "his eyes were gonna pop out of his head". I actually think he looked more nervous/anxious when he had to sit there and deal with AshLee's crap on the WTA.

On Andi's ATFR, Nick looked nervous and Andi looked pissed off. And maybe she had a right to be since she knew Nick wanted a second chance, but being a little friendlier and gentle when she saw how nervous he was might have led to avoiding the whole sex thing being brought up.

umngirl wrote:

Ash2214 wrote:

umngirl wrote:

We have very different recollections of Sean's ATFR with Lindsey.

To me, this whole thing comes back to sex in the FS. If you have it with more than one person, you best be prepared to deal with the consequences of those actions.

Of course we do.

I saw a guy that looked nervous. I can still picture CH asking him if he was ready and Sean looked terrified. Once she came out and was asking questions I thought he calmed down and they both looked comfortable. Every lead looks nervous before the F2 comes out. What's wrong in saying Sean seemed nervous and eventually calmed down? That's just human nature. That's why I said it's a two way street. Both the lead and the F2 need to give to each other in a very awkward situation. I just personally didn't think Nick gave Andi much to work with.

I saw him looking slightly nervous but not "scared to death" as you stated and like "his eyes were gonna pop out of his head". I actually think he looked more nervous/anxious when he had to sit there and deal with AshLee's crap on the WTA.

On Andi's ATFR, Nick looked nervous and Andi looked pissed off. And maybe she had a right to be since she knew Nick wanted a second chance, but being a little friendlier and gentle when she saw how nervous he was might have led to avoiding the whole sex thing being brought up.

When you watch it, CH asks Sean if he was ready and he took a big deep breath and his eyes are open wide when she first sits down. There's a picture on Google that captured it perfectly. Regardless, like I said, it's a normal reaction for a lead. It must be terrifying for the lead and F2. I'm sure the fact that Lindsay was calm and asking normal questions and being happy for him calmed him down, which happened very quickly.

That's why I used Sean and Lindsay as an example. They both gave to each other. It's bad enough Andi already had her guard up considering she was engaged to someone else and she was about to see Nick, who for the past two months wanted her back, and all he could do was mumble, shake, and couldn't even look her in the eyes. I know all of that would have thrown me off. Nick didn't give her much to work with. It took CH to ask her questions, to which she replied with good answers.

whit90 wrote:

GuardianAngel wrote:

Ash2214 wrote:I do personally think if Nick had acted differently at the ATFR, then things would have been different in general.

I always look back on Sean's season in comparison with Andi's. Obviously way different for many obvious reasons, but I always thought Sean and Andi were similar in that they both really, really liked their F2's, but they fell in love with their F1's and it was just more right.... snipped

Sorry I couldn't disagree with you more. Andi's F2 was part of the act, and nothing more. As many of her supporters have stated over and over, Josh was her pick out of the limo. The rest, was, the show must go on and she played her part. Anyone that gives her a hard time, she deals with it by lashing out and making it their problem. Similar to Josh's attitude now.

Besides, Sean didn't have sex with Lindsay, he respected the meaning of sex, similar to Andi's F2.

What I find interesting is there aren't any pics of the two of them together at the wedding Andi was a BM for. Wouldn't it be comical if the groom didn't like Josh and he wasn't invited? Karma. I'm sure there's a logical explanation.

Could not of said it better GA ....There is another difference that I see with Nick and Sean compared to Andi and Josh . Sean and Nick both are classy men that care about other people and their feelings. It is so obvious now that Andi and Josh only think of themselves . It is sad that Josh has stooped to Andi's level.

Well, it seems to me that Nick didn't care much about Josh's feelings during ATFR. I actually like Nick, but he isn't a saint, same as Andi isn't evil. They are all human and made mistakes.

FTR, I've never once called Nick classy or said that he was classy for bringing up the whole sex thing.