Couples Therapy - Season 5 - Premier Sept 10 2014 - General Discussion

^^^
Stuck,  I was indifferent to their season.  Only at the ATFR,  I liked Nikki because of JPa's behaviour--like a child.  I never posted anything about them until CT.

For the record,  I still like Nikki..

****I don't think there are bad people, only bad behaviours. And I don't hate anybody from the franchise, including JPa.

stuckinsc wrote:I am just curious, if most people who dislike JPG and Nikki so much did his whole season or if their failure to play nice to Sean/Cat made most people angry?

I see a lot of Andi fans who dislike Nikki, but much like Arie and Jef back in the day, Andi and Nikki are friends who are still friends.  I know I question my opinion of Andi because of how much I like Nikki, do any of those who like Andi do the same with Nikki?  I am not trying to a smart alec, rather I am truly curious.

I think only time will tell with this couple.  It has definitely been a rough few days in CT for them, again until the end of the show, who knows what will play out.  I only know that Nikki and JPG have vacationed together and that Evil seems to be okay with Nikki and JPG, so I am thinking they were too bad.  But hard to tell until it is over with.

Never liked either one of them. The fact JuanPa especially took jabs at Sean just solidified my opinion.

Nothing they do on this show could make me like them, apart from personality replacements which isn't happening.

I just want to make one thing clear here, and it's not addressed at you stuck, I'm not a "hater". I don't like them but I can't hate people I don't know.

umngirl wrote:

stuckinsc wrote:I am just curious, if most people who dislike JPG and Nikki so much did his whole season or if their failure to play nice to Sean/Cat made most people angry?

I see a lot of Andi fans who dislike Nikki, but much like Arie and Jef back in the day, Andi and Nikki are friends who are still friends.  I know I question my opinion of Andi because of how much I like Nikki, do any of those who like Andi do the same with Nikki?  I am not trying to a smart alec, rather I am truly curious.

I think only time will tell with this couple.  It has definitely been a rough few days in CT for them, again until the end of the show, who knows what will play out.  I only know that Nikki and JPG have vacationed together and that Evil seems to be okay with Nikki and JPG, so I am thinking they were too bad.  But hard to tell until it is over with.

Never liked either one of them. The fact JuanPa especially took jabs at Sean just solidified my opinion.

Nothing they do on this show could make me like them, apart from personality replacements which isn't happening.

I just want to make one thing clear here, and it's not addressed at you stuck,  I'm not a "hater". I don't like them but I can't hate people I don't know.

I disliked the whole season and it had nothing to do with SeanCat. I didn't want JPab as the Bachelor and said it would not turn out well, but even I could not imagine how right I would turn out to be. I didn't dislike Nikki as much, but I found her rather negative and she didn't really do anything for me. The fact that she just stood there during the AFTR and took how JPab behaved, didn't endear her further. The fact that she is friends with Andi, well...

Why bring Andi's fans into people not liking JP or Nikki or them as a couple? My liking someone has absolutely nothing of who I like or dislike.... I don't like Sean or Cat or them as a couple but that has no bearings on my feelings for JP/Nikki..... I just don't think Andi's fans has to be brought up in this discussion....

Getting back to Nikki, I really didn't care one way or the other about her during the bachelorette what made me root for them as a couple was because of the hate or the dislike they received after their season, I root for the underdog, but the more I see this edit version of their relationship it makes me change my views I am starting to see that JP is a major manipulator and Nikki is like a silly little girl in love..... JP has been around Nikki and knew how she would react to the camera, he is no fool I have a feeling this is a setup from him to finally dump Nikki and he will not receive the backlash, people will applaud him from getting rid of the immature ice queen..... And the couple fans who are latching on to Dick, he is a fame whore who will latch on to anyone who is the most popular or who will let him ride with them so he can stay relevant... Just let JP/Nikki refuse to go on Dick at night, he will broadcast their personal business all over the internet for all to see and read..... Dick is NO ONE friend, just to be warned... LOL, the rumor is that the woman Dick is with on couple's therapy is a fake ex GF....

mindless wrote:Juan Pablo was acting quite attentive towards Nikki, but he still seems to mostly light up when she's pissed. He was full of glee when the cameras caught her bad behaviour and made sure to point out every unkind gesture towards him as they were in a competition of who is more at fault.

luvlady345 wrote:the more I see this edit version of their relationship it makes me change my views I am starting to see that JP is a major manipulator and Nikki is like a silly little girl in love.....  JP has been around Nikki and knew how she would react to the camera, he is no fool I have a feeling this is a setup from him to finally dump Nikki and he will not receive the backlash, people will applaud him from getting rid of the immature ice queen..... 

I can't help but suspect these two observations are connected. I don't think JPG was "playing to" the others in the house but rather to the cameras that were filming this and the hope (expectation) that this would make the final edit to show viewers a reason why he should (will) break up with her. Normally once a couple from The Bachelor break up they become less relevant and don't have fans following either of them so much, so JPG has a problem once a breakup might happen if he wants to continue to get opportunities to appear on TV or Reality TV. Maybe this is a part of his solution to that problem; this wouldn't be the first time someone from this franchise has tried to deflect blame on to someone else after a breakup.

stuckinsc wrote:I am just curious, if most people who dislike JPG and Nikki so much did his whole season or if their failure to play nice to Sean/Cat made most people angry?

I see a lot of Andi fans who dislike Nikki, but much like Arie and Jef back in the day, Andi and Nikki are friends who are still friends.  I know I question my opinion of Andi because of how much I like Nikki, do any of those who like Andi do the same with Nikki?  I am not trying to a smart alec, rather I am truly curious.

I think only time will tell with this couple.  It has definitely been a rough few days in CT for them, again until the end of the show, who knows what will play out.  I only know that Nikki and JPG have vacationed together and that Evil seems to be okay with Nikki and JPG, so I am thinking they were too bad.  But hard to tell until it is over with.

OK. I hope you don't mind me getting "windy" in my response.

These "characters" on Mike Fleiss' ongoing prime time soap opera are like commodities on the stock exchange, going up and down over the years.

To use an early example, I was overjoyed that Trista chose timid and too-sensitive Ryan Sutter over somewhat cocky Charlie Maher. On their rather private (i.e. not ambitious) ATFR show, Charlie's stock went up because of his gentlemanly reaction to the happy couple. (Mike Fleiss claimed in a later interview that he was kicking himself for not choosing him as Bachelor. It wouldn't have been quite the Roman orgy that Bob Guiney's was.)

However their wedding was an agonizing bore, over-dosed in a sea of pink. Then they were at every public event, posing naked for a cancer calender (that was amusing), doing travel shows for the various networks (at least Ryan looked happy on TV there), Fear Factor and eventually DWTS (Ryan was NOT happy there). It was obvious that Trista couldn't make up her mind as to being a TV celebrity (she loves the attention as much as Sean and Juan) or a housewife/mom (since she was an only child, she definitely wanted kids of her own). When she finally decided on the latter and took time away from the media, she once again became "normal" in my eyes. Yeah, you can tell she is not thoroughly satisfied in her life, but she repeatedly says in interviews how grateful she is to have two children and a husband she gets along with so well.

Sometimes these characters are more lovable as contestants, then they lose your support later. Reid was a delight on Jillian's season and, of course, many of us were still questioning "why Ed?" Well... she and Ed were more compatible in the long run (if for just a year in a relationship) and, no doubt, Reid was edited flawlessly on screen since he was Fleiss' initial choice for the next lead over Jake Pavelka. However, on Bachelor Pad, Reid and Ed were together and I started favoring the latter on account of Reid being too obsessed with The Game and anal-retentive. A little of his fussiness went a long-long way. I don't dislike him at all, but I think we tend to be influenced by how the editors slice and dice.

Sean and Catherine... ehhh. OK with them if not "gooey" like their fans. Their "stock", for ME, went down a bit when he was on DWTS because I feared he might wind up more wrapped up in the public attention than her. Yet I am impressed with the couple overall.

One couple whose stock has remained consistently high are Desiree and Prince Siegfried, who are less "public" than the others. I also thought Chris was more fascinating in an introspective way after reading Diamonds + Hearts. I like his attitude toward life.

Always liked the other Chris S. too. Don't care if the Republican Governor of Texas also does.

I stayed out of the discussions on other threads regarding the Nick/Andi/Josh "triangle" because I always felt rather neutral towards all three.

In regards to Nick... he always amused me. I was never bothered by his trashtalking on screen since there was no real malice and this is only a stupid TV show. Personally I thought either Josh or Chris was a better match for Andi, since there was way too much verbal tomfoolery and winking going on between these two. However, going by his post-show behavior, I suspected that Nick didn't take his experience on the show very well. Intriguingly, Chris defended him in a pair of June interviews (i.e. Fleiss had him do it since he was already prepping him for Bachelor... as we all slowly realize Harrison's "Chris was our last moment choice" is likely poppy-talk and Arie never stood a chance). Chris suggested that all of his "jackass move" talk and Belgium battles with Nick were simply in-the-moment disputes. Post-show, he was clearly sympathetic (i.e. the candid shot of the two in Chicago post-show).

Yeah... even though I am neutral in my opinions of her, I do agree that Andi was too cold with him on ATFR. She wouldn't have been embarrassed about the Fantasy Suite talk had she not kept hinting that she favored Josh much earlier than she told Nick. She does have that arrogance that can backfire on her.

The only problem I had with Juan was that he was so intensely focused on his final two most of the season, then acted undecided when Nikki's visit with his family went so well in Miami. Also he and Harrison behaved like Nikki's visit wasn't that big of a deal. I mean... make up your mind! Also, if you re-watch the Panama episode, his body language with Clare is too difficult for Nikki to stomach. They pretty much are ready to "go all the way" as soon as the cameras leave. Personally, I think he was worse than Andi was with Nick in leading Clare on.

THEN AGAIN... Clare Bear is one hellavah STRONG woman and, no doubt, her talking down Juan and putting him in his place certainly would not have succeeded in a relationship post-show. I also think she was totally BONKERS on BIP in the way she reacted to Zack. I still like Clare, but she needs to simmer a lot more before she can succeed with most men. Nikki still wound up the less troublesome match for Juan here.

Juan's ego, especially on THIS show, amuses me more than it repulses me. He just loves being on TV... and we ALL know it! Personally, I WANT to see him get all the exposure he craves. He needs the cameras as much as an astronaut needs oxygen. How Nikki can deal with it is her problem.

Nikki is hardly a lovable personality since she chews off the heads of people who are doing nothing "bad" to her. Yet I kinda understand her struggles. I mean... I do my best with these people, weighing out the good vs. the bad. Obviously she is good at her nursing job and cares for people in general... at least babies who don't argue with her. We just need to see more "nice" Nikki on screen than EITHER the editors on Couples Therapy and Bachelor are showing.

One silly little tidbit I need to bring up is Juan's comments about Jenna's boobs "shrinking" and her having too many tattoos. Apparently his "mojo" for her (after greatly enjoying her videos "back in the day"... and I would rather not know how much he enjoyed them) had plummeted upon his first meeting of her in person. Yet those comments humored me a lot because... curiously... I didn't think Juan was insulting her or was judgmental of her physical appearance. Instead, because he is SO focused on the cameras and himself looking good, he sounded concerned that Jenna wasn't looking HER best for the cameras.

I dunno why I think these things. It tickled me though.

JBF, thanks for sharing your opinion.

I hated Des at first, though was always a fan of Chris S, just didn't believe in Des's fast turn around. Overtime, I saw that she genuinely was appreciative and loving to Chris. I don't know if she was completely over Brooks when she accepted the proposal, but she sure is now and she makes Chris happy, so I am all in with this couple.

I liked Sean/Cat and for the most part still do. I don't like the fact that they can make snippy, sarcastic comments about others and it is okay, but when someone responds to their comments they get criticized. Sean and Cat can dish it out quiet easily, so I wish when they were criticized it was taken better. Overall, I am impressed with Sean and Cat, but since Sean has a desire to be a minister I would like to see a little more forgiveness on his part and less judgement of others even if it is just sarcasm.

Andi and Josh are a good fit. I don't care for Andi, but I think she is young and can grow. I do like Josh, but don't care so much about them as a couple, as I did like Nick and felt their cold behavior to Nick was a little harsh for winners. They got their happiness, so why not be more understanding of the person who was so sad and heartbroken? Again, to me it has to do with the Christian part. If you want to proclaim your Christianity then I want to see it when it is hard, not just when it is easy. To me being understanding toward Nick would have shown a lot more Christian forgiveness.

All of this is just my opinion.

I liked Nikki, Sharleen, Andi and Kelly T on JPG's season. I thought Renee was sweet. I couldn't stand Clare, she was too all about Clare for me. I honestly thought she was a narcissist, she reminded me very much of my mother.

Since that season, I continue to adore Sharleen, think Renee is sweet, but with her quick marriage I don't know how much she was really into JPG. Nikki is an admirable young woman. I love that she has a real career and taking care of sick children. This will always give her bonus points in my opinion. I don't think Nikki has a desire to be a media darling and live off the bachelor brand like many others from this show. I am seeing a less mature and confident side of Nikki on CT and I see that she may have rubbed the other women as very negative, I get it more than I did back during the bachelor. Her rude behavior towards the crew of the show is not okay and I hope she is learning. I would expect better from a nurse, as I am sure that Nikki herself has been treated poorly for things that were not under her control either.

Clare on BiP was a lot of fun. I do think she needs to get more realistic about relationships, but overall she is fun. I still think some of her strength is a bit of self-centered behavior, but overall their is a lot more good in her than I saw on the bachelor and I don't know that I have truly seen the real Clare on my tv yet.

The Andi and Kelly T post show are not nice women. They have shown mean girl behavior and disrespect for a lot of things and both seem like over privileged rich girls who get away with a lot because of their looks. Unfortunately, in both cases, I think the pretty on the outside doesn't go too deep. If I see them be better women in the future, I will be happy, but the actions I have seen from them especially when together post show don't support that.

Many see JPG as evil. I see a gregarious man who is fun to be around and a lot less aware of other people's feelings and that he just doesn't seem to care too often about what others think or feel. I see how this rubs people the wrong way, though to me it is less malicious and more self centered. Again, him being a loving father gets him points in my book and I felt he "used" Camila as a lead much less than Jason or Emily "used" their children as leads.

I guess for me, I wonder how JPG will react to a woman standing up to him. I thought he respected Sharleen a lot and to me she never backed down from being who she was. I think we all expect that JPG would not like a strong or assertive woman and I don't know that is true. He reminds me of most Latin men I know who were very happy with their strong and assertive women, but still presented themselves as men.

I think JPG and Nikki have a lot to work out. They have both said therapy helped them, so I am waiting to see.

As for JPG and Jenna, I have to say, I have a colleague whose best friend is an MMA fighter. He has met Jenna and a few other porn stars through his friend. He actually told me that in person they were pretty nasty and that he at least and his friend had very little desire to touch or be with them as they were just kind of gross. That is what I see with Jenna. She is not that old, but looks very old and used up. Her attitude to me is interesting, was she always this way or did years of porn and drug use make her this way? I think Jenna was once hot, but seeing her now is shocking. I actually find it refreshing that JPG doesn't pretend that he hasn't watched porn, but then again, most men I know have watched porn so I guess it bothers me less than some other people.

Well my dislike of Nikki and Juan Pablo certainly has nothing to do with anyone but them. I'm not even a fan of Sean and Cat, though I wish them all the best because they seem perfect for each other. I don't even know of any animosity between them and JPG. All I remember is some comments during ATFR and I never pay much attention to those.

I didn't want JPG as the bachelor, but after the first episode I was willing to give him a chance because he seemed nice and genuine. Then as the season went on, his actions and general attitude towards the women started to grate on me, not to mention how uninteresting/-intelligent he seemed as a person. I can't think of a less attractive combination of traits than manipulative and unintelligent. I was rooting for all the women to dump him and it's got nothing to do with the edit. They can't edit in personality traits that aren't there. They may leave some unflattering ones out, but even that was a bit difficult with JPG, without having to leave out major events like the talk with Clare.

I didn't care about Nikki one way or another for most of the season, just hated looking at her fried hair and dark roots. I definitely noticed her negativity and bitchy moments and those didn't exactly endear her to me. Biggest problem, however, was her relationship with JPG. It was just blah and she seemed to turn into this timid little girl around him. Their conversations seemed to mostly consist of her giving a bashful monologue without even looking at him while he played with her face/hair like he was barely listening. There was just this strange father/daughter vibe, which made me uncomfortable. I can't root for relationships that don't seem equal to me. Now we see on CT that she still doesn't know how to even talk to him or verbalize her needs. It just doesn't seem right between them. The most important thing in a relationship is that you can be yourself around your partner and if you still can't months later, then it doesn't bode well. Even Sharleen, who seems very rational, wrote in her last BiP recap, while talking about Marcus and Lacy, that she's "a recent believer of the old "when you know, you know" adage", obviously meaning that's how she feels about her new boyfriend. All I'm saying is that it's not supposed to be that hard.

stuckinsc wrote:I hated Des at first, though was always a fan of Chris S, just didn't believe in Des's fast turn around. Overtime, I saw that she genuinely was appreciative and loving to Chris. I don't know if she was completely over Brooks when she accepted the proposal, but she sure is now and she makes Chris happy, so I am all in with this couple.

Going off topic for a moment...

The speed with which she packed her bags for Seattle was most amusing, though. I don't think she was that unsure of a future with Chris. Here's what she wrote on May 4, 2013 (before FRC) in case it matters: "The joy you bring in every kiss / Are the sparks my body feels / And not only the characteristics checked off the list / But the moments that ensure eternal bliss"

While one could speculate whether Nick and Andi "made love" in a Boys II Men sense or a Clarence Carter sense (fine line, y'know), I have the feeling that Des was not exactly missing Brooks going into that final rose ceremony as much as she blabbed on and on.

Also her poem in Barcelona, edited on screen but copied in the book, had some interesting lines like "on top of that roof (i.e. episode 3) overlooking the view / that was the moment I knew sparks grew", later "and the rose to grant us our fate" and closing with "and hopeful to see in your heart I have found a home".

By Madeira, Chris stated on page 121 in the book: "I was not worried about anything because I knew in my heart she was the one for me and no matter what would happen, we would ultimately be together". Was he in his Nick frame of mind (i.e. we will marry on a mountain top and get a dog together named "Murray")? Or did he know something-something we viewers didn't?

To keep the peace, the general agreement HERE is that Des liked BOTH guys and leave it at that. Nobody has hard feelings post-show. It would not surprise me in the least if Brooks attends the wedding.

Back to topic...

Nikki is an admirable young woman. I love that she has a real career and taking care of sick children. This will always give her bonus points in my opinion. I don't think Nikki has a desire to be a media darling and live off the bachelor brand like many others from this show. I am seeing a less mature and confident side of Nikki on CT and I see that she may have rubbed the other women as very negative, I get it more than I did back during the bachelor. Her rude behavior towards the crew of the show is not okay and I hope she is learning. I would expect better from a nurse, as I am sure that Nikki herself has been treated poorly for things that were not under her control either.

Did you ever watch the movie One Flew Over The Cuckoo's Nest?

She is... well... one of the Fussies. Spends a lot of time in the bathroom we hear. Finds the way Jenna fusses about her bathroom amusing since she isn't too different herself. Probably washes herself a lot since all of these strangers are spreading germs on her. Everybody invades her "space". Clare did in Miami. The crew does when interviewing "It's Showtime" Juan in her bedroom.

Yeah... I do like Nikki. She is a VERY interesting case study.

Does anybody think her edit on The Bachelor was better than Couples Therapy or simply the same? Was she an easier-to-deal-with contestant on the earlier show? We did see the fight she had with Clare: two Alpha Females roaring at each other. Also Elise kept saying "eww" when Juan gave Nikki a group rose... and Sharleen also said some questionable stuff about her, despite appearing more friendly post-show. They also buried Nikki a lot in the promos, with just some angry voice-overs like "She thinks that's her man!"

The key statement coming from Nikki at the start of CT was that she had no designs of "getting married" to The Bachelor Juan, an obvious "dig" at competitor Clare and her DVD from Pop. Yet she never says what she really thinks either. She probably wants the same things as the women she is hypercritical of. Wedding bells and all.

Many see JPG as evil.

No, that is Dick... and it is spelled "Evel" as in Evel Knievel.

JPG just wants us to all luv him. He is The Star. Nikki gets to play Grumpy to his Happy.

I guess for me, I wonder how JPG will react to a woman standing up to him.

You saw his reaction to Clare Bear in the finale.

JBF, I didn't think Clare in the finale stood up to him, I felt that was attack. I got why, but she wasn't trying to have a conversation she was trying to inflict damage with words. I don't think that communication is anymore effective then JPG not listening.

The closest I saw to anyone standing up to JPG was Clare with the nighttime portion of the LCD. She did confront him about the comment, but gave in a little to easy. From that conversation, I remembered JPG talking and listening, but honestly don't remember the whole thing, so I could be wrong. I do remember wishing that Clare had not given in so easily. She had a valid issue and deserved a better answer.

To be honest, I saw Clare as petulant most of the season. Even the no kiss day with JPG, she pouted and pouted until JPG gave in. Bad behavior on both their parts, he should have stuck to his word and she should have respected his words.

Again, I wasn't a huge Clare fan on the show, so most of my memories of it are colored by finding her very self-centered and hard to watch. I can admit, that I might have seen her harshly, so I am trying not to go on those impressions too much, since until the whole overreaction with Zack, I was pleasantly surprised by Clare on BiP. I thought she handled the AshLee drama well and was even kind to Cody, which I can't see Clare with Cody, so I don't think she was even interested. I am still not sure how MM and Cody work, but they do, so I put it up to, sometimes we just don't see everything on our tvs.

Des and Chris had a wonderful connection their whole show. I was actually bummed as I thought she was going to let the better fit of Chris go for Brooks. I adore Brooks, but I think he and Des would never have worked. She is a nester and needs a protector. Brooks is an adventurer and to me would not do well with a woman who needs as much TLC and reassurance as Des. Chris's love and complete support has really helped Des who I saw as a wounded bird bloom into a confident and joyful woman. Chris is deliriously happy with Des, so it really works out. I haven't read hearts and diamonds, made fun of it at the time, thought it had a terrible marketing campaign, so I can't comment on what they wrote during filming. I am glad that Des even though she was edited and her own comments pre-RC were so Brooks, Brooks, Brooks, it is only Brooks and I don't know if I can stay now that Brooks has left Brooks, it is good to know that she did see Chris before as he was so obviously the right one for her.

JBF wrote:

I guess for me, I wonder how JPG will react to a woman standing up to him.

You saw his reaction to Clare Bear in the finale.

Ha, oh yes! "Phew, I'm glad I didn't pick her!" while stiffling a grin, the fake concern disappearing from his face the moment she walked out of sight. Not an ounce of self-reflection, just relief he got rid of her. Actually his reaction was curiously similar to Andi's reaction to Nick, though Nick didn't even have to resort to insults for the same effect.