Bachelor In Paradise - **Finale** - Episode 7 - September 8 2014 - General Discussion - *Spoilers*

MiaHawk wrote:I don't necessarily believe that Sarah was expecting sex with Robert in the FS, but she was expecting more interest to be shown by him---both via conversation and physical affection. The spark fizzled in the FS instead of igniting. It was part of the process of "testing" the relationships, like CH said.  And their relationship failed that test.  Perhaps without other people or external distractions, the relationship could not stay afloat.  Simple as that. It happens.  In group settings you can be laughing and having a good time, and then when it's just you and him, crickets.  It's a red flag, a sign that you're not meant to be together.  The editing made it seem like it was because of the jeans and no sex, but it was more about how that night didn't live up to her expectations of making her feel special, loved, desired, or that the relationship was moving forward in a romantic direction.  

I also don't understand all of the angst over CH telling them to decide if they wanted to date IRL. Say yes to dating or break up. What's the big deal about saying yes to dating IRL when you live 10 minutes away? It's not like TPTB were going to do bed checks on them every night, was it?  What would have been the big deal if they said they wanted to date IRL and shortly thereafter they broke up? Isn't that what happens all of the time with this stupid franchise?  if she really felt that Robert could be a good boyfriend to her, she would have been wise to agree to date him and see where it went in the weeks to come. But, I think she knew in her gut that "it" wasn't there. Nobody's fault. Just wasn't in the cards. The vast majority of the tears on this show are grief that love didn't happen for them, rather than grief that they are saying goodbye to someone.

   

I didn't get it either, re the bold. They made it sound like a do or die situation. ChrisB and Elise did that. BTW on Jason and Molly's podcast, they said they flew ChrisB and Elise back to Mexico because they were going to film something else, or do something else, J/M didn't know what, but it never happened. J/M spent all day on the beach with them, and dinner afterwards. So two trips for the creepy ChrisB and Elise and they split anyway.

I guess it bothers me that Sarah didn't take Robert serious enough just because there was no physical attraction so soon. She was ready to drop him like a hot potatoe for Brooks who paid no attention to her. Robert appeared really hurt when she broke it off, and that told me that he did have feelings for her. So was it because of Robert's lack of physical attention, or was it Sarah knew she wasn't really into him. All in all, it was for the best, IMO for both of them. Perhaps Robert has issues himself, of holding back, showing affection or didn't want to fall to fast. It's too bad because they did make a cute couple. She appears to realize she made some mistakes and feels bad now which is sad.

I would like to read a blog from him so we have two sides of the story.

GuardianAngel wrote:She will find an excuse with everyone she meets. I understand her emotional problems that she may have because of her appearance, but you either deal with it, get help if you need it, do whatever it takes to like yourself. Otherwise she'll never change. You can't keep doing the same thing and expect different outcomes. It was wrong of her to expect Robert to have sex with her, just because, and now using that as an excuse. She wanted him to fight for her. What's up with women wanting men to fight for them. Stop playing games, and maybe there won't be any fighting necessary.

Breaking up with Robert broke my heart (twice). If this had happened back in L.A., I probably would have had a conversation with Robert and tried to work it out instead of impulsively dumping him. But Chris Harrison takes no prisoners and there was no time for “working it out.” Admittedly, by my seventh word in, I wondered if I had just made the biggest mistake of my life. Had I overanalyzed the situation and let the pressure of Chris’s ultimatum impair my judgment? Here I am looking at a smart, funny, genuine man who has treated me so well, yet I am making him cry. It sucked. This was a man who took me swimming every day, brought me ice cream, sent me sweet notes, called me his “bae,” and protected me from every new guy that entered Paradise… and he’s suddenly not enough. What’s wrong with me!? I’m still not sure, but I know I wanted him to fight back.
Parade - Sarah

Her comments are actually quite introspective, and could lead her to making wiser decisions in the future.

But ...

I don't get all this "fight for me" stuff, at least in the situations we saw with Sarah and Clare. Men can get insecure, too, and to expect them to fight for you after you say you don't think it is right is really unrealistic.  The only guys I ever knew who did that were the overly-obsessed type.  Most men I know will take their heartbreak and handle it privately.  Many think it would be ungentlemanly to do otherwise.  We teach them that "no" means "no" for all sorts of situations; this idea that suddenly a guy isn't supposed to take the "no" on face value is nuts and confusing.  How the heck would I ever explain THAT to my 17 year old son while also making sure he never lands himself in jail as a stalker (or worse)?

I most certainly would not have spent the last few decades happily married to my soul mate if I had been looking for him to "fight for me."  He is way too shy.

How much of that "needing someone to fight for you" is a lie fed into by producers?  A test designed to have more drama for the show, that these poor insecure women take too seriously?

dw_a_mom wrote:

GuardianAngel wrote:She will find an excuse with everyone she meets. I understand her emotional problems that she may have because of her appearance, but you either deal with it, get help if you need it, do whatever it takes to like yourself. Otherwise she'll never change. You can't keep doing the same thing and expect different outcomes. It was wrong of her to expect Robert to have sex with her, just because, and now using that as an excuse. She wanted him to fight for her. What's up with women wanting men to fight for them. Stop playing games, and maybe there won't be any fighting necessary.

Breaking up with Robert broke my heart (twice). If this had happened back in L.A., I probably would have had a conversation with Robert and tried to work it out instead of impulsively dumping him. But Chris Harrison takes no prisoners and there was no time for “working it out.” Admittedly, by my seventh word in, I wondered if I had just made the biggest mistake of my life. Had I overanalyzed the situation and let the pressure of Chris’s ultimatum impair my judgment? Here I am looking at a smart, funny, genuine man who has treated me so well, yet I am making him cry. It sucked. This was a man who took me swimming every day, brought me ice cream, sent me sweet notes, called me his “bae,” and protected me from every new guy that entered Paradise… and he’s suddenly not enough. What’s wrong with me!? I’m still not sure, but I know I wanted him to fight back.
Parade - Sarah

Her comments are actually quite introspective, and could lead her to making wiser decisions in the future.

But ...

I don't get all this "fight for me" stuff, at least in the situations we saw with Sarah and Clare. Men can get insecure, too, and to expect them to fight for you after you say you don't think it is right is really unrealistic.  The only guys I ever knew who did that were the overly-obsessed type.  Most men I know will take their heartbreak and handle it privately.  Many think it would be ungentlemanly to do otherwise.  We teach them that "no" means "no" for all sorts of situations; this idea that suddenly a guy isn't supposed to take the "no" on face value is nuts and confusing.  How the heck would I ever explain THAT to my 17 year old son while also making sure he never lands himself in jail as a stalker?

How much of that "needing someone to fight for you" is a lie fed into by producers?  A test designed to have more drama for the show, that these poor insecure women take too seriously?

Isn't it funny, they label Nick as stalker because he wanted to get closure from Andi and didn't give up right away, but we hear Clare and Sarah ask their men to fight for them.

Why shouldn't the woman want to fight for the man she loves instead of giving up?

The whole thing is ridiculous. This expectation that you are a princess and he should sweep you of your feet. Stop watching romantic comedies and reading romance novels! I love both, but that is fiction, not real life, and the expectation leave you alone when no one can be that perfect!

Sarah was raised watching the FS. So she should know that it has resulted in failure of the relationship over 75% of the time. This is what I thought of her little drama and

stuckinsc wrote:...snipped
Sarah was raised watching the FS.  So she should know that it has resulted in failure of the relationship over 75% of the time.  This is what I thought of her little drama  and

Oh gosh, I forgot about that. I was so shocked when she said that! Yikes!

GuardianAngel wrote:I didn't get it either, re the bold. They made it sound like a do or die situation. ChrisB and Elise did that. BTW on Jason and Molly's podcast, they said they flew ChrisB and Elise back to Mexico because they were going to film something else, or do something else, J/M didn't know what, but it never happened. J/M spent all day on the beach with them, and dinner afterwards. So two trips for the creepy ChrisB and Elise and they split anyway.

I guess it bothers me that Sarah didn't take Robert serious enough just because there was no physical attraction so soon. She was ready to drop him like a hot potatoe for Brooks who paid no attention to her. Robert appeared really hurt when she broke it off, and that told me that he did have feelings for her. So was it because of Robert's lack of physical attention, or was it Sarah knew she wasn't really into him. All in all, it was for the best, IMO for both of them. Perhaps Robert has issues himself, of holding back, showing affection or didn't want to fall to fast. It's too bad because they did make a cute couple. She appears to realize she made some mistakes and feels bad now which is sad.

I would like to read a blog from him so we have two sides of the story.

They flew Chris B. and Elise back to Mexico, because they wanted him to propose. Unsurprisingly, Chris B. sent them to the place where the sun don't shine, hence no Chris and Elise in the last episode.

BohemianNika wrote:

They flew Chris B. and Elise back to Mexico, because they wanted him to propose. Unsurprisingly, Chris B. sent them to the place where the sun don't shine, hence no Chris and Elise in the last episode.

Really? Maybe two trips was also reimbursement for his role hanging out for a week outside the mansion on Andi's season. Even ChrisB would only go so far in playing his assigned role! Too funny. Thanks for sharing!

Back to Robert: I think he is very uptight and socially awkward. Someone really does need to get him into a more intimate situation and teach him how to "let it all hang out." Not necessarily sex, but closeness. JMHO.

stuckinsc wrote:

dw_a_mom wrote:Her comments are actually quite introspective, and could lead her to making wiser decisions in the future.

But ...

I don't get all this "fight for me" stuff, at least in the situations we saw with Sarah and Clare. Men can get insecure, too, and to expect them to fight for you after you say you don't think it is right is really unrealistic.  The only guys I ever knew who did that were the overly-obsessed type.  Most men I know will take their heartbreak and handle it privately.  Many think it would be ungentlemanly to do otherwise.  We teach them that "no" means "no" for all sorts of situations; this idea that suddenly a guy isn't supposed to take the "no" on face value is nuts and confusing.  How the heck would I ever explain THAT to my 17 year old son while also making sure he never lands himself in jail as a stalker?

How much of that "needing someone to fight for you" is a lie fed into by producers?  A test designed to have more drama for the show, that these poor insecure women take too seriously?

Isn't it funny, they label Nick as stalker because he wanted to get closure from Andi and didn't give up right away, but we hear Clare and Sarah ask their men to fight for them.

Why shouldn't the woman want to fight for the man she loves instead of giving up?

The whole thing is ridiculous.  This expectation that you are a princess and he should sweep you of your feet.  Stop watching romantic comedies and reading romance novels!  I love both, but that is fiction, not real life, and the expectation leave you alone when no one can be that perfect!

Sarah was raised watching the FS.  So she should know that it has resulted in failure of the relationship over 75% of the time.  This is what I thought of her little drama  and

I dunno... I am going to confuse you all with my run-on commentary here. Just call it brainstorming with no purpose in mind.

There have been a lot of amusing posts over on the motherboard regarding Robert's keeping-the-jeans-on. Of course, some have speculated if he has some sort of "intimacy problem" that wasn't explained to Sarah. Why Sarah had to go into details (and her questioning if Robert even has a penis got included among Entertainment Weekly's funniest "soundbytes" of the week) is beyond me. Yet she is quite the Miss Tell All, who sometimes needs others to remove that foot from her mouth on occasion.

This show and franchise is just... kooky. A kooky show with kooky people in it, all eager to present some kind of "image".

I still don't quite "get" Michelle and Cody together, but these two are so likable and amusing to watch that it probably doesn't matter. I kinda doubt they did all of the "stuff" Michelle insinuated behind closed doors. Yet it was important for viewers to THINK they had a wild time for whatever reason. I won't ask why. Usually folks aren't that candid on TV. I do suspect that Sarah was semi-OK with her overnight until the other two gal-pals got overly enthusiastic about theirs.

Both Robert and Zack are happy with this show experience and have no regrets. Why shouldn't they? They are still a tight "couple" that no woman can separate. Zack even commented on AfterBuzz that he was willing to continue with Jackie, but SHE got skeeeered when Harrison supplied the ultimatum. Also geography was a problem for those two, since neither was willing to move for the other. On the other hand, Robert, Sarah, Zack and Clare are all residing in the same state, so they could re-hook. Quite interesting in that AfterBuzz interview (see the media thread) was Zack being asked what scenes he wished were shown and the two he responded with both involved Clare (?!) making smoothies with him and their crab-shack recreation done on the anniversary night of Daddy's passing (i.e. sea turtle time). I think he is still open to continue with her, but all of her drama with AshLee (and not any Jackie or Christy "factor") was what ruined their relationship. Neither he nor Robert likes women who are pushy.

Have to get off topic a little. Amusingly, the "ghost" of Clare Bear (Ms. "I hate drama") was still present in the relationship of Juan and Nikki when they did that VH1's couple therapy show. (I did catch episode #1.) Nikki prided herself by saying she didn't join the Bachelor with all of these high expectations about marrying the guy (an obvious "dig" to you-know-who and putting all of her eggs in one basket), yet you sense that she really wants that just as much as Clare did. This is why she is putting more effort into the relationship than Juan appears to be. Many posters online were outraged about his casual insulting her in front of others by calling her one of his "daughters", but I found his conversation with "Evil" Dick (ex-Big Brother contestant) more offensive. When asked about the fantasy overnights, he was nebulous but very cocky... as if he enjoyed all three women. You know Andi was not one of them, but it is doubtful that he ever explained fully to Nikki what may or may not have happened with Clare... and she, in turn, pretended that she didn't want to know. In a preview scene, somebody asks if she feels she's still competing with other women to win Juan's affections.

This brings me back to BIP... and how Sarah over-analyzes the fantasy suite by what she sees on TV and hears from others (regardless if she is actually getting The Truth)... and how Clare over-reacted to AshLee insinuating she had sex with Juan based on what she saw on an edited TV show... and getting upset with Zack for even hinting that they were too "physical", which reminded her of Juan upsetting her in that infamous helicopter ride (a.k.a. when he told her he enjoyed ****ing her). Mind you, Zack has little in common with Juan and certainly didn't intend for his words to be interpreted the way they were.

In a curious way, Sarah and Nikki remind me of each other. Both insist on camera that they are cool headed, down-to-earth ladies who are not gushy about open demonstrations of affection and are hypercritical of other women who fling themselves to men. Sarah, in particular, had plenty to say about Elise's conquests of both Dylan and Chris Bukowski. However, both women are equally upset about the men they hook up with not being demonstrative with them. You get what you ask for.

Also... in a curious way... Clare Bear has quite a bit in common with the one man she despises the most: Juan. They both have this loooooooong list of "ideal partner" characteristics that no human being can possibly measure up to. Juan won't say "ILY" to Nikki until she overcomes all of her "flaws" and he keeps bringing up "my daughter" as an excuse for everything. Likewise, Clare has Daddy on a pedestal and wasted so much screen time on BIP with lines of "I want a man who..." Of course, Zack was doomed simply because he didn't feel AshLee's trashtalking was worth waging a war over and, no, he is not going to chase after overly-dramatic Clare if non-dramatic Jackie is still on the show (not that anything significant happened with those two). Yet she lost Zack by telling him not to stop her from leaving and to stop "sugar coating" their relationship which I don't feel he was doing.

These people are their own worst enemies.

I don't think any woman should expect a man to "fight for her" when the relationship is a few weeks old, and they have not even exchanged ILY's.  IMO Sarah used that expression to sort of justify her mistake in dumping Robert prematurely.  And I don't think we should start confusing the concept of "fighting for someone" with "no not meaning no" in a physical sense under any circumstance.  Or stalking.  

And I agree, it wasn't necessarily about no sex but about a lack of greater physical affection when they were alone.  Apparently, Robert had no problem making out with Sarah, but didn't feel ready (or interested?) in taking it any further than that (I think he just didn't want to mislead her into expecting more of a commitment from him than casual dating that might have been inferred from sex or more physical intimacy), and when you're alone in a FS with not much else to do, it got magnified for Sarah, and especially after hearing about the other ladies' nights, she felt rejected and acted on it.

Regarding the ridiculous ultimatum pronounced by CH, obviously only concocted to spark some drama between the couples, didn't Robert and Sarah actually agree that they were going to stay together and date in the "real world" and that's why they went on their FD in the first place?  That only changed because of the disconnect in the FS.

JBF wrote:In a curious way, Sarah and Nikki remind me of each other. Both insist on camera that they are cool headed, down-to-earth ladies who are not gushy about open demonstrations of affection and are hypercritical of other women who fling themselves to men. Sarah, in particular, had plenty to say about Elise's conquests of both Dylan and Chris Bukowski. However, both women are equally upset about the men they hook up with not being demonstrative with them. You get what you ask for.

I think you're spot on with this. I mean say what you want about Clare, but at least she's being her crazy romantic self and is honest about her expectations, instead of trying to play it cool while making fun of other people's feelings. I think both Sarah and Nikki are smart girls and probably capable of giving some good advice from an objective point of view, but when it comes to themselves, deep down they're still expecting for a fairytale. I mean before the FRC Nikki was going on and on about how she can't wait to see Juan Pablo on one knee proposing and telling her everything he's been dying to say, and how she can't wait to call her parents and tell them she's engaged. Then none of that happened and all JP had to say was "I like you a lot". Suddenly she's totally fine with being the only one to use the love word and having no concrete plans for the future six months later and everyone who went on the show with higher expectations is "crazy". Sure. She would've walked away ages ago if she wasn't still obsessed with the idea of a fairytale ending. The longer it takes the more invested she is and Juan Pabs knows this.

As for Sarah, after all the crying about no one liking her someone finally does and then as soon as things don't go perfectly smoothly in the physical department she's first eyeing up someone else and then freaks out and dumps him, because he doesn't wanna have sex while on a TV show. Of course it's possible that he really just wasn't that into her, but I think any cool down-to-earth person would've given him another chance outside of that crazy environment. There are a million reasons one might not feel like going for it on a TV show with someone they're only just getting to know. Actually I think you need to be totally in love or just very sexually open to do it. She needs to stop thinking it should all go perfectly or it's doomed, otherwise she'll be single for life.

I wasn't very optimistic about Juan and Nikki at the end of his season, but... strangely... they MIGHT make it on this silly VH1 couples therapy show. At least if both realize what they are "doing wrong". I mean... none of the other Bachelor/ette couples are doing this.

*chuckle chuckle* Remember when Jason/Molly, Ali/Roberto and the Sutters attended Brad and Emily's ATFR show?

Which reminds me... did Jason/Molly, Sean/Catherine and Chris/Des really "help" those final couples? Actually I would have liked either them or a professional to come on the show earlier when there were more contestants together.

JBF wrote:I wasn't very optimistic about Juan and Nikki at the end of his season, but... strangely... they MIGHT make it on this silly VH1 couples therapy show. At least if both realize what they are "doing wrong". I mean... none of the other Bachelor/ette couples are doing this.

*chuckle chuckle* Remember when Jason/Molly, Ali/Roberto and the Sutters attended Brad and Emily's ATFR show?

Which reminds me... did Jason/Molly, Sean/Catherine and Chris/Des really "help" those final couples? Actually I would have liked either them or a professional to come on the show earlier when there were more contestants together.

It's funny, because I was listening to Jason/Molly's podcast and they said that their one big advice that they kept repeating was "take it slow!"…and Marcus/Lacy got engaged and Cody is moving to UT right afterwards. So, I don't really think that they "helped". I think that they should have brought them in at the beginning of the episode. I would she loved to see everyone talk to Graham about Ashlee.