Re: : Nick Viall Bachelorette 10 - *Fan Forum* - *Spoilers* - Discussion - Thread #8

[SueSt]

If he did, then he is just further and further down that ladder.  I hope he didn't and Andi was too busy telling him about her perfect ring she designed so he was sure to know which one to pick out.  

I would not rule out anything at this point - none of this makes any sense still to me...

Yes, the whole thing doesn't make sense.  My heart still can't reconcile the LS I saw to the way it ended.  I feel like last night was so wrong and that there needs to be a redo

Hi Pia,
My heart still can't reconcile the LS I saw to the way it ended.
As Danny from afterbuzz said: I'm gutted.
  

[nutty1]

How was the Afterbuzz….I want to listen, but only about Nick.

[nutty1]

Thoughts on the bracelet?? We will have to see if he has it on in future pictures.

[SueSt]

Some more articles about our boy Nick:

http://www.zap2it.com/blogs/the_bachelorette_nick_sex_question_problem_genders_reversed-2014-07

http://www.ravishly.com/2014/07/29/bachelorette-heartbreak-nick-andi-slut-shaming

Thanks sbolduc.
The second article in particular really resonates for me... Not saying ILY is NOT ENOUGH!!!!
...and is worth posting, I think!

That Moment on The Bachelorette: Slut Shaming or Heart Breaking?
by Giana Ciapponi | 07.29.14 3:57pm
@Giana_Ciapponi

In last night's finale, we saw Bachelorette Andi Dorfman opt for Josh and his surprisingly symmetrical hairline over Nick and his neon outfits. And you know, their personalities and all of that blah blah blah—not like viewers actually get an accurate portrayal of that superfluous aspect of a person anyway.

What was shocking wasn't Andi's decision, but rather the reaction of fans to Nick's heartbreak. (Specifically, one moment on the After The Final Rose.)

See, Nick was, well, devastated and confused by what happened. He tried to contact Andi to chitchat about their end before facing her on TV. No such luck. Needless to say, Nick was harboring some pent up anger, confusion and betrayal and dropped these poop-storm-creating words:

"Knowing how in love I with you I was, if you weren't in love with me, I'm just not sure why, why did you make love with me?"

Some cry "slut-shaming!" Others claim, "censored shaming!" Personally, I'm more inclined to agree with the latter. Why?

Don't be reckless with someone's heart

I was a female player. Guilty as charged. Let me tell you something: there is a big difference between having casual sex and toying with someone's emotions (also, guilty of both).

Viewers are free to mock the seriousness of reality TV (okay, I'm just guilty all across the board), but it is real to the people on it. Yes, heavily guided dates with camera crews capturing every word look ridiculous and yes everyone chose to be there, but—remember—those are real people with real emotions.

Sometimes, your date likes you more. Other times, you're the one falling hard. Eventually, there comes a point where feelings are revealed—either through honest conversation, a series of drunk phone calls, sexts, etc. etc. If you are the receiver of such amorous feelings, you have a responsibility—you've been entrusted with someone's heart and this isn't a possession to be taken lightly. The way you react may dictate the future actions of its owner.

If you don't reciprocate these feelings—but carry on as if you do—you are committing an emotional atrocity. You can justify it—I believe Andi kept swearing she never said "I love you" to Nick—all you want. But that doesn't free Andi you from guilt. When we're drunk in love, it's all about riding the proverbial surfboard; our brains are bombarded with lovey dovey hormones (lookin' at you, oxytocin) that cause us to overlook red flags. This means that the victim of unrequited love will look for "clues" that the feelings are mutual. Refusing to say "I love you" isn't enough.

When the truth is revealed (as it was for Nick), it's devastating. Men especially are taught not to showcase vulnerability; social research has shown that (as a whole) men suffer more post breakups. Worse yet, the injured party likely won't bounce back 100% fine after two days; instead, that person may start dating with the same laissez faire attitude and be an censored to someone else. That person will do the same. And, thus, a chain reaction of heartbroken assholes is born.

Given that potentially twisted little merry-go-round, Nick's comment makes sense. It's not acceptable to be reckless with someone's heart—even in the sick, sad world of reality TV.

[SueSt]

If he did, then he is just further and further down that ladder.  I hope he didn't and Andi was too busy telling him about her perfect ring she designed so he was sure to know which one to pick out.  

I would not rule out anything at this point - none of this makes any sense still to me...

That would be very sad, not only that J. would use this to gain A.'s hand but that she would believe it.  No idea if that could have happened or if it is something he would even do.

I do think Nick was really struggling with the idea of a proposal under the circumstances of " the process". Not his love, just the very short time factor between taking 2 guys to the folks, 2 dates, then something sacred like a proposal.  I think he may have felt she should have a longer period of time between all that and a proposal so she would be sure.  Nick is astute, older, and mature.  Nothing to do with over analyzing ... just common sense.

She watched the same show and had access to the same knowledge we do that many of the guys from the show have since made amends with Nick. She could have pulled a "Mesnick" but didn't.

I do think Nick was really struggling with the idea of a proposal under the circumstances of " the process"[....] just common sense...
ITA NR... and that's why Nick kept asking for reassurances... not over analyzing, rather correctly assessing his situation.

[isittrue]

[quote="mimitalks"]

Great post.  Yeah, I was really disturbed by how much she kept reassuring him while he gazed up at with those adoring eyes.  I think this may be my final Bachelorette rodeo too.  This one sucked the life out of me.  I did not know Andi since I skipped Juan Pablo but something about Nick drew me in and I am thankful I had the chance to watch him at least. I just hated to see my love story was all a delusion.  Andi is one cold, calculating cookie and I am thankful she is off my screen.  

Bolded mine. The following is just my opinion. I've been perusing the posts, and your statement I bolded really hit me, enough to post something after what I watched Monday night. I don't want to believe it was all a delusion, and I do want to believe she had feelings for Nick. Nobody wants to see someone crushed like that. It does make me question whether TBTB were thrown for a loop themselves during filming, or if it was obvious from the word go that she wanted Josh. So much we don't get to see. I guess I hoped it was Josh she was going to see, but I didn't deep down believe it. It seems to me that the consensus of opinion is the distaste on not her breaking it off with Nick, but on how she did it - with half answers and seeming coldness. I re-watched three scenes off of a blog site this morning - the "breakup", the extra Wisconsin filming, her explaining to Nick at ATFR that she didn't love him. I don't know what Andi truly went through. It is hard to imagine the gamut of emotions a woman or man goes through in a situation like that, and we are not privy to their real feelings normally (except maybe in the case of Sean, who couldn't seem to help himself saying he loved his F2). We see only what the TBTB want or allow us to see. We saw a tired, emotionally spent Andi at times (Josh's words were similar to that) and a defensive one and one who was caught up in the bubble herself at times (I believe) and one who thought she was falling in love. We (at least some on this thread) wanted it to be with Nick - to believe she wanted the something deeper we felt we saw promised. Yes, it is a cheesy reality show and highly edited, but this season showed us raw emotion and glimpses behind the scenes. It is like the fourth wall (I believe they call it that, maybe I'm wrong) was broken. Fakeness (is that even a word?) was exposed by Eric, who dared to be "real" in an unreal situation and was allowed to have it shown. Gut-wrenching tears were shown, as the cast and crew dealt with the death of someone who had just recently touched their lives.

The thing is (and I really didn't start this post off to defend Andi) that Andi now has a new relationship to live out in the public eye and media storm (whether she would want that or not), and I believe she felt that she needed to close the door on the old one to successfully do that. How she did it is what most people are focusing on, I think. The jolt of being told by someone directly they don't love you (especially if they never said those words in the first place) must be immense, but I do feel it is closure. In a weird way it is kinder, really. I don't think she planned to say it that way (just my opinion), but she was prodded to do so. Only she knows the truth of that. I believe a person is much more likely to start healing and be able to move on - after the initial shock of it. Yes, I believe he will carry the hurt for awhile - the sting, the feelings of humiliation. A person can only take so much, but it seems that Nick is being surrounded with friends and family who can ease him through this admittedly hard situation. It takes a strong person to cope with destroyed hopes, but a person's own strength is not enough. I do hope a genuine woman will be in his future, but before that can happen he needs to heal. I am troubled by the fact he is agreeing to interviews, but I'm not him (obviously). Each person chooses the way he/she deals with situations, but he, too, must live out this situation in the public eye and media storm - whether he wants to or not. I wish him the best.[/quote
I understand there is a lot of editing that goes on in this show. My biggest problem with Andi in all of this - is why did she sleep with Nick if she was so set on Josh? Nick even stated that he went into the FS with no expectations and to sleep with someone after they tell you that they love you, just reinforces the notion that you return their feelings. Surely TPTB did not tell her that she had have sex with him. She also knew of his past breakups and how they affected him yet she kept him until F2. I also have issues of the reassuring she gave him on LCD, he was looking for positive signs and she was giving him them. Maybe she did wake up the next morning and realize she was wrong from leading him on but I think a little empathy during the breakup and ATFR might have gone a long way with giving Nick some closure and might have stopped Nick from bringing up what he did on ATFR. He stated that her demeanor towards him was a shock and that may in fact give him closure but I think she could have been a little nicer. I think the tv interviews will slow down this week and Nick will be free to return to his normal life in Chicago. I think his family and friends will help to keep him grounded during this time.

[nutty1]

I think why she slept with Nick will never be answered…..we will all have our own answer in our mind, but the truth may never be definitively known.

[SueSt]

Okay, I am always the rose colored glasses girl, but I still think what i saw was real and Andi just can't admit it because it makes her dismissal of Nick look all the more callous.  The Andi we saw last night (and believe me, I was never an Andi fan) has had 10 weeks to stew on the rain Nick threw on her parade.  I think last nights debacle is a reflection of that.  The "Love at First Site" thing is the story you tell when you sold your soul to the devil to be Arron Murray's SIL.

I still believe that the Andi Nick thought he fell in love with was not the Andi he saw last night.  So either she is extremely emotionally immature or never really cared that much for Nick.  Are there other choices? I do think that the lead is in a terrible position at the end bc she has to kind of deny the other relationship to make the relationship with the final choice work.  But if you really cared about your F2 (Nick in this case) you wouldn't be so "cavalier" and "cold." Or if you did care and acted like that anyway then she is not who Nick thought she was. Truth.

This is how I feel too.  Nick only got to see exactly what Andi wanted him to see of her while they were together.  But, at the AFTR, Nick saw the real Andi, the person who is self-centered, and the Andi where the world revolves around her.  And if you dare question her, you will get the cold treatment and absolutely no compassion.

When she went to let him go, I saw her demeanor change as soon as Nick told her that she went too far, meaning sleeping with him in the FS.  That was the coldest and most unemotional interaction I have ever seen between a lead and her F2 - when letting the F2 go.  She is truly heartless.    

I agree with the bolded completely Longhorn.
And it was discussed yesterday, but totally made me think of Jillian and Reid.... and Reid never even said he loved Jillian.
Regardless, when Jillian saw Reid at the ATFR and recognized how hurt he was, she apologized for not being able to speak with him and cried a little in acknowledgement of his suffering. She was human and caring; not heartless like Andi.
Andi's heartlessness makes it impossible for me to support her choice of Josh. I just don't care for people that are so cold and heartless.

[notarose]

Great post.  Yeah, I was really disturbed by how much she kept reassuring him while he gazed up at with those adoring eyes.  I think this may be my final Bachelorette rodeo too.  This one sucked the life out of me.  I did not know Andi since I skipped Juan Pablo but something about Nick drew me in and I am thankful I had the chance to watch him at least. I just hated to see my love story was all a delusion.  Andi is one cold, calculating cookie and I am thankful she is off my screen.  

Bolded mine. The following is just my opinion. I've been perusing the posts, and your statement I bolded really hit me, enough to post something after what I watched Monday night. I don't want to believe it was all a delusion, and I do want to believe she had feelings for Nick. Nobody wants to see someone crushed like that. It does make me question whether TBTB were thrown for a loop themselves during filming, or if it was obvious from the word go that she wanted Josh. So much we don't get to see. I guess I hoped it was Josh she was going to see, but I didn't deep down believe it. It seems to me that the consensus of opinion is the distaste on not her breaking it off with Nick, but on how she did it - with half answers and seeming coldness. I re-watched three scenes off of a blog site this morning - the "breakup", the extra Wisconsin filming, her explaining to Nick at ATFR that she didn't love him. I don't know what Andi truly went through. It is hard to imagine the gamut of emotions a woman or man goes through in a situation like that, and we are not privy to their real feelings normally (except maybe in the case of Sean, who couldn't seem to help himself saying he loved his F2). We see only what the TBTB want or allow us to see. We saw a tired, emotionally spent Andi at times (Josh's words were similar to that) and a defensive one and one who was caught up in the bubble herself at times (I believe) and one who thought she was falling in love. We (at least some on this thread) wanted it to be with Nick - to believe she wanted the something deeper we felt we saw promised. Yes, it is a cheesy reality show and highly edited, but this season showed us raw emotion and glimpses behind the scenes. It is like the fourth wall (I believe they call it that, maybe I'm wrong) was broken. Fakeness (is that even a word?) was exposed by Eric, who dared to be "real" in an unreal situation and was allowed to have it shown. Gut-wrenching tears were shown, as the cast and crew dealt with the death of someone who had just recently touched their lives.

The thing is (and I really didn't start this post off to defend Andi) that Andi now has a new relationship to live out in the public eye and media storm (whether she would want that or not), and I believe she felt that she needed to close the door on the old one to successfully do that. How she did it is what most people are focusing on, I think. The jolt of being told by someone directly they don't love you (especially if they never said those words in the first place) must be immense, but I do feel it is closure. In a weird way it is kinder, really. I don't think she planned to say it that way (just my opinion), but she was prodded to do so. Only she knows the truth of that. I believe a person is much more likely to start healing and be able to move on - after the initial shock of it. Yes, I believe he will carry the hurt for awhile - the sting, the feelings of humiliation. A person can only take so much, but it seems that Nick is being surrounded with friends and family who can ease him through this admittedly hard situation. It takes a strong person to cope with destroyed hopes, but a person's own strength is not enough. I do hope a genuine woman will be in his future, but before that can happen he needs to heal. I am troubled by the fact he is agreeing to interviews, but I'm not him (obviously). Each person chooses the way he/she deals with situations, but he, too, must live out this situation in the public eye and media storm - whether he wants to or not. I wish him the best.

When I think of all the times people get shot down and respond with "I never loved you anyway" I can't help but celebrate the fact that Nick is not one of them.  It's refreshing to hear a man say he loved a woman and a part of him loves her still.  It puts meaning back into what love should be.

Since he has decided to accept some of the media opportunities made available to him, I trust he will use those opportunities in a manner true to who he is. He chose to go on a reality show.  He couldn't have known in advance that he would fall in love and, unfortunately, as he said at his meet the Dorfs date, revise his way of thinking to a belief that Andi was really the 1 person he was meant to be with.  For a man who always believed there could be more than one right person, this paradigm shift must be devastating given the show's outcome. If he needs to "talk it out" in public, because all of it has been public to this point, then I commend him for doing so.  There is no shame in truth.

   He does appear to have a wonderful support system.  

As to Eric and the shows dedication: in the last epi, Nick said, in an ITM during the Dorf Scene, that love and family were the most important things in life.  Amazingly, that is exactly what Eric said on his only 1-1 date. I think Eric and Nick were "mirrors" of each other.  I would have liked have seen a deleted scene of them talking together.  I'd like to imagine they touched each other's lives.

[isittrue]

I think why she slept with Nick will never be answered…..we will all have our own answer in our mind, but the truth may never be definitively known.

No, the whole season is an enigma!

[isittrue]

Great post.  Yeah, I was really disturbed by how much she kept reassuring him while he gazed up at with those adoring eyes.  I think this may be my final Bachelorette rodeo too.  This one sucked the life out of me.  I did not know Andi since I skipped Juan Pablo but something about Nick drew me in and I am thankful I had the chance to watch him at least. I just hated to see my love story was all a delusion.  Andi is one cold, calculating cookie and I am thankful she is off my screen.  

Bolded mine. The following is just my opinion. I've been perusing the posts, and your statement I bolded really hit me, enough to post something after what I watched Monday night. I don't want to believe it was all a delusion, and I do want to believe she had feelings for Nick. Nobody wants to see someone crushed like that. It does make me question whether TBTB were thrown for a loop themselves during filming, or if it was obvious from the word go that she wanted Josh. So much we don't get to see. I guess I hoped it was Josh she was going to see, but I didn't deep down believe it. It seems to me that the consensus of opinion is the distaste on not her breaking it off with Nick, but on how she did it - with half answers and seeming coldness. I re-watched three scenes off of a blog site this morning - the "breakup", the extra Wisconsin filming, her explaining to Nick at ATFR that she didn't love him. I don't know what Andi truly went through. It is hard to imagine the gamut of emotions a woman or man goes through in a situation like that, and we are not privy to their real feelings normally (except maybe in the case of Sean, who couldn't seem to help himself saying he loved his F2). We see only what the TBTB want or allow us to see. We saw a tired, emotionally spent Andi at times (Josh's words were similar to that) and a defensive one and one who was caught up in the bubble herself at times (I believe) and one who thought she was falling in love. We (at least some on this thread) wanted it to be with Nick - to believe she wanted the something deeper we felt we saw promised. Yes, it is a cheesy reality show and highly edited, but this season showed us raw emotion and glimpses behind the scenes. It is like the fourth wall (I believe they call it that, maybe I'm wrong) was broken. Fakeness (is that even a word?) was exposed by Eric, who dared to be "real" in an unreal situation and was allowed to have it shown. Gut-wrenching tears were shown, as the cast and crew dealt with the death of someone who had just recently touched their lives.

The thing is (and I really didn't start this post off to defend Andi) that Andi now has a new relationship to live out in the public eye and media storm (whether she would want that or not), and I believe she felt that she needed to close the door on the old one to successfully do that. How she did it is what most people are focusing on, I think. The jolt of being told by someone directly they don't love you (especially if they never said those words in the first place) must be immense, but I do feel it is closure. In a weird way it is kinder, really. I don't think she planned to say it that way (just my opinion), but she was prodded to do so. Only she knows the truth of that. I believe a person is much more likely to start healing and be able to move on - after the initial shock of it. Yes, I believe he will carry the hurt for awhile - the sting, the feelings of humiliation. A person can only take so much, but it seems that Nick is being surrounded with friends and family who can ease him through this admittedly hard situation. It takes a strong person to cope with destroyed hopes, but a person's own strength is not enough. I do hope a genuine woman will be in his future, but before that can happen he needs to heal. I am troubled by the fact he is agreeing to interviews, but I'm not him (obviously). Each person chooses the way he/she deals with situations, but he, too, must live out this situation in the public eye and media storm - whether he wants to or not. I wish him the best.

When I think of all the times people get shot down and respond with "I never loved you anyway" I can't help but celebrate the fact that Nick is not one of them.  It's refreshing to hear a man say he loved a woman and a part of him loves her still.  It puts meaning back into what love should be.

Since he has decided to accept some of the media opportunities made available to him, I trust he will use those opportunities in a manner true to who he is. He chose to go on a reality show.  He couldn't have known in advance that he would fall in love and, unfortunately, as he said at his meet the Dorfs date, revise his way of thinking to a belief that Andi was really the 1 person he was meant to be with.  For a man who always believed there could be more than one right person, this paradigm shift must be devastating given the show's outcome. If he needs to "talk it out" in public, because all of it has been public to this point, then I commend him for doing so.  There is no shame in truth.

   He does appear to have a wonderful support system.  

As to Eric and the shows dedication: in the last epi, Nick said, in an ITM during the Dorf Scene, that love and family were the most important things in life.  Amazingly, that is exactly what Eric said on his only 1-1 date. I think Eric and Nick were "mirrors" of each other.  I would have liked have seen a deleted scene of them talking together.  I'd like to imagine they touched each other's lives.

  

[Carolinagirl1864]

I thought right after this happened, can you imagine if Josh had been the bachelor and had picked Andi as his F1 and then she found out he had slept with his F2!! It would have been worse than Deanna and Brad.I still am puzzled how Josh acts like he just doesn't care that it happened.I feel like she had told him about it, but still.. It was cruel for her to sleep with Nick knowing how emotionally invested he was in her.If she had come on ATFR and just told him she was sorry she felt they were not a match and then said something like, you can't imagine all the girls standing in line to date you, he would have never said what he did.I think it would have helped some even if he still was in love with her.I will be curious to see how all of this affects her career.If she is trying to get offers in LA,this could be a problem.The sweetheart image might be tarnished.

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