Bachelorette 10 - Andi Dorfman and CH's Blog - *Spoilers* - Discussion

bilolo wrote:I think knowing your flaws and admitting having them are one thing but trying to improve them is another thing, so i believe that Andi just wanted Josh to be aware of those flaws (as there's not enough time) and maybe together they'll work on it (as much his too) and try to overcome them. You can always try to improve but it's easier said than done. There's a saying (don't know how to say it in english ) "l'habitude est une seconde nature".
The first step is to be aware of them and Andi does, so there's hope imo.

bilolo wrote:I think knowing your flaws and admitting having them are one thing but trying to improve them is another thing, so i believe that Andi just wanted Josh to be aware of those flaws (as there's not enough time) and maybe together they'll work on it (as much his too) and try to overcome them. You can always try to improve but it's easier said than done. There's a saying (don't know how to say it in english ) "l'habitude est une seconde nature".
The first step is to be aware of them and Andi does, so there's hope imo.

emusha wrote:What makes us think that he's seen the diva/bratty side of her in a real sense? they might have simply joked about it or her mentioned it lightly at one time which she might have also done before...Josh joked about it while gulping on water - doesn't mean he's seen it in action...I think the same might be true for any of the other guys since they all talk a lot on their 6hr+ dates anyways - specifically to Nick she's said to him her bitchiness/brattiness (paraphrase) during the time he was consoling her after Eric left...

the VO of her saying Josh sees her completely were all actually not her saying them in person during the date but could have been added later...maybe even to balance comments she made about Nick seeing all of her (which are mostly VOs but she does back it up it in person during the chat with Bella "he understands me and i understand him too -- we get each other")

I don't believe we've see her having exposed these imperfections with anyone in action- ...she seems more relaxed at times with Josh esp in last date and with Nick in other dates and slightly less guarded with each of them depending on the scenario - I've noticed her eyes sparkling with both of them and her voice getting husky with emotion with Nick a lot...she does admit that he makes her feel intense things...the interesting thing is Nick during his ILY tells her he likes that she's strong but can also be vulnerable...that's interesting if he's seen her be that way with him...
With Josh they've obviously talked about it and he has a grasp of what she means cos that gulp was quite hilarious...dunno if he's seen her in action, however since I can't even imagine how the scenario could arise in the middle of a show like this...

Regardless I do hope Andi isn't too stubborn to see the invaluable role of personal growth and that my guestimations are wrong about her! though from what we've seen I do think she has to learn through life at this moment

emusha wrote:what makes her behavior then diva/bratty? They had a bit of back and forth about him not being happy about the test -- he was acting bratty at this point ! she agreed that he wouldn't be here if he didn't want to..later she expressed concerns that she sees heartbreak ahead...that doesn't sound like diva or bratty to me...

docnash14 wrote:

emusha wrote:what makes her behavior then diva/bratty? They had a bit of back and forth about him not being happy about the test -- he was acting bratty at this point ! she agreed that he wouldn't be here if he didn't want to..later she expressed concerns that she sees heartbreak ahead...that doesn't sound like diva or bratty to me...

I have a different take than you about this.  I think Andi was the instigator of the conflict about the test and thought she was being "difficult."  While I don't necessary construe it as brattiness, in my opinion, her insecurity drove her reaction to Josh admitting honestly that he was offended and likely disappointed that he was having to take the test given the gains he thought they had made organically the previous week in trust building.  Andi later admitted that she had taken his comment as a personal criticism.  That coupled with her fear that his reaction to the test was evidence that he was hiding something led her to her statement that you referenced which IMO was her attempt to stiff arm her triggered insecurities by taking control.  She then mounted the defense of putting up her wall but then projected doing so on to Josh who in turn refuted her accusation in a calm albeit upset manner without any brattiness.   I do agree that in subsequent discussions about the incident Andi was able to share effectively with Josh how she had interpreted his reaction to the test and what that had triggered for her.

emusha wrote:

docnash14 wrote:

emusha wrote:what makes her behavior then diva/bratty? They had a bit of back and forth about him not being happy about the test -- he was acting bratty at this point ! she agreed that he wouldn't be here if he didn't want to..later she expressed concerns that she sees heartbreak ahead...that doesn't sound like diva or bratty to me...

I have a different take than you about this.  I think Andi was the instigator of the conflict about the test and thought she was being "difficult."  While I don't necessary construe it as brattiness, in my opinion, her insecurity drove her reaction to Josh admitting honestly that he was offended and likely disappointed that he was having to take the test given the gains he thought they had made organically the previous week in trust building.  Andi later admitted that she had taken his comment as a personal criticism.  That coupled with her fear that his reaction to the test was evidence that he was hiding something led her to her statement that you referenced which IMO was her attempt to stiff arm her triggered insecurities by taking control.  She then mounted the defense of putting up her wall but then projected doing so on to Josh who in turn refuted her accusation in a calm albeit upset manner without any brattiness.   I do agree that in subsequent discussions about the incident Andi was able to share effectively with Josh how she had interpreted his reaction to the test and what that had triggered for her.

hmm you know on second thought I get what you are saying here and you're right Josh wasn't being bratty but wanting to address the issue and it's understandable that Andi's insecurities led her to her reaction -- i have to defend both of them here a bit to say ...both their reactions were based on perceived misalignment between them - Andi defaulted to her neediness while Josh was calm and collected in expressing his concerns. I think he pretty much conceeded to her "let's forget this conversation ever happened" rather than pushing through to have her and him address the issue together. Her being defensive and wounded caused a bit of a distraction away from how/why he felt concerned about her mistrust of him...So Andi deflected his concerns at her lack of trust of him...
After this second thought (I had a diff opinion about his reaction a couple of days ago) I totally get where Josh is coming from - trust was a big topic they'd consistently been discussing regarding the "type" of guy he comes off as - that Andi has been cheated on etc. Andi might/might not have put him on this particular date with any hesitations about his trustworthiness she might have. I totally get where he could feel that "oh wow...a lie detector test?? Really??" and feel like she's typecasting him and putting him through an interrogation when deep down he felt he had the best of intentions...Jilly says he must be hiding something... but I don't agree with her. We have to remember Andi is good at mind games so I don't blame Josh for being confused about her motives... I do think she wasn't very OPEN to seeing things from his perspective and she immediately got on a personal defensive. this isn't at all a good way to handle conflict and I fear that she and Josh might have a difficulty with communicating during conflict since she might just cope out to either getting on the defensive/victim side (based on perceived personal attack to her) and I don't see Josh having the resolution to challenge Andi in those moments...even when he might need to I see him conceding (which he seems happy to do at any cost at this point which I'm not really excited for for him...). I think levelheaded Nick is quite skilled at unpacking and addressing issues openly and equitably -- and I've seen Andi meet him half way on those rare occasions...he also I don't think has any problem with calling it like he sees it...making him NOT a pushover willing to conceded to a "princess" (not missing the irony here given his storybook   )
I don't know if it exhibits brattiness per say but it does show that they didn't succeed at communicating effectively and with Josh's difficulty in communicating the detail of difficult things in a non-threatening way I don't see them as a great communicator couple but that's something they can learn if they're both open and realize the importance

MiaHawk wrote:

emusha wrote:I don't think we disagree on anything Alanna the only thing is I'm suggesting a different motivation from her end as well as fear of heartbreak particularly with how gleeful she seems at getting every guy to fall all over himself for her. I'm finding it silly that I only saw the bratty/diva side of her (by her own admission) when it all clicked for me how much strategizing went on in her head for her as she led up to pulling emotions from all the guys...it got very clear to me has she got Josh to pull out all the stops before she even marginally let herself go and fall for him (like she would go with her second top choice if he wasn't going to be up to par with his level of commitment & fall for the next best option... I mean isn't love supposed to be unconditional or something?) ...I found it distasteful to see her relishing the prospect of 2 people proposing to her. She was almost rubbing her palms at the thought!! That just seems terribly heartless and calculated. Talk about mind games....

For me, there's always been this element of "I have no clue who Andi is" feeling throughout these seasons and now it became very clear after her interactions with Chris, Josh & her convo with CH -- she's got that poker face as Eric Hill had astutely observed (I was wondering what the heck he was talking about) and I very clearly see the MeAndi who is lapping up all the ILY and baiting the guys to give them to her "I like hearing that" "it feels so good to hear [x] say this and that"...the way she handled Chris' goodbye was very disappointing - whining and crying as if it's his problem that he should get her out of.... hilarious how he so politely said "well what do you want me to say/do I don't know if that's a decision I can make."

I love reading your posts because they make total sense to me.   :WAVEY: 

I had a fairly neutral opinion of Andi throughout JuanPablo's season, until the post-FS meltdown.  I found her classless & mean  when she was making fun of the guy's accent and he catch phrase "It's okay".  All he was trying to say was that he accepted that she wasn't feeling it for him and he would simply say goodbye to her and they didn't need to beat a dead horse.  All she needed to do was remove herself from the process if she was no longer interested in him.  That is part of the premise of the show.  Her meltdown was very unattractive and she continued on with that unattractiveness at ATFR.  Throughout that season, scenes with her and Nikki made me feel they were both a bit rough around the edges and a bit bitchy.  The fact that she is now pals with Kelly the dog lover also clues me in to her personality and what kind of friends she keeps.  Things said on SM have been very unkind and mean spirited.  I judge a person by the company that they keep.

I've seen posts saying that Andi is an alpha personality.  I agree, but then again I don't.  I think Andi has a hard exterior.  Some of that is because of her profession, but I'd argue that she probably is good at her job becausee she has the right personality for it.  I find it interesting that a 29 year old woman refers to herself as bratty, a diva, and difficult.  I understand she is not trying to sugar coat herself.  When she said that she was moody or bitchy, as opposed to fake, with the Eric situation, that wasn't a red flag to me.  Everyone of us can be moody or bitchy at certain times.  But bratty, diva, and difficult mean something totally different to me.  Those things allude to a pampered little girl who was indulged in childhood, such that she grew up to be a woman who feels slighted when she doesn't get her own way.  I found it concerning that twice we heard directly out of her mouth (once with Nick and once with Josh) that she couldn't possibly be the disciplinarian parent because, in essence it was too hard and it wouldn't be any fun for her.  Nick had the best reaction to that;  I loved it.  He called her out and said that he wouldn't always want to be the bad guy parent and that they needed to work as a team.  He challenged her thinking.  I don't necessarily think that Josh did.  It's just a pet peeve of mine when parents try to be friends with their children instead of being their parent.  Yes, have fun and enjoy your children, but don't give them the moon on a silver platter or else I fear that they will grow up to be entitled, bratty, difficult divas.

To me, alpha male or female denotes a person naturally of strength and leadership.  I think Andi tries to put on a strong face, but underneath she is fearful and looking for someone else to handle of the tough stuff in life for her.  For example, it was talk about here at one time that Andi may not be able to pay for her apartment on her salary alone and perhaps Hy helps her.  While I know that life is expensive (rents, autos, utilities, etc), I would never subsidize my children's high-end, posh neighborhood rent.  I would tell them that they needed to live within their means and move to a less expensive zip code.  If she grew up accustomed to nice things, it is part of maturing to know that Rome wasn't built in a day.  In other words, you might get that nice stuff after a few decades on the job and stashing away the savings.  I think she sees in Josh a sugar daddy.  Not that I am saying that they aren't in love or they won't make it work.  But it is simply my opinion that she picked Josh over Nick partly based on the fact that Josh's mom is probably more accustomed to being pampered and taken care of (in a material sense) than Nick's mom (who has had 14? mouths to feed and presumably less disposable income to throw around).  Just ask yourself this:  When Andi said (to Marcus? on a date) that she eats sushi 7 days a week, what does that tell you about Andi's lifestyle?  I don't believe Andi rolls her own sushi, do you?  It's just the little things that I've picked up on this season that all add up to support the pampered princess persona.  

I loved what CH said in his blog:  Josh=comfort zone.  Nick=unknown.  I don't care if she picks Josh or Nick.  I'm not her, it's her life, and she the one who will need to make it work IRL.  But, when I hear a woman point out character flaws, and laugh about them, I sure hope she stops and thinks about them a bit and then tries to improve herself and grow.  That's all I'm saying, because as much as a bratty, difficult, diva wife is unattractive to me, a bratty, difficult, diva mother is even more so.  Peace.

Alanna wrote:

MiaHawk wrote:[snipped for brevity]  

I loved what CH said in his blog:  Josh=comfort zone.  Nick=unknown.  I don't care if she picks Josh or Nick.  I'm not her, it's her life, and she the one who will need to make it work IRL.  But, when I hear a woman point out character flaws, and laugh about them, I sure hope she stops and thinks about them a bit and then tries to improve herself and grow.  That's all I'm saying, because as much as a bratty, difficult, diva wife is unattractive to me, a bratty, difficult, diva mother is even more so.  Peace.    

I don't disagree on your assessment of Andi necessarily but I don't view it poorly. IMO she does have a hard exterior hiding a pretty vulnerable/needy girl and she is a spoiled princess, but I just don't view them as terrible things, I guess. She knows who and what she is, and she went out and found a guy who loves everything about her, thinks her brattiness is beyond adorable, and has had no trouble keeping the diva in check, which she absolutely loves. I don't see it as a sugar daddy thing either, she's used to a certain lifestyle and again, went out and found someone who grew up in a similar household where the man is the provider and protector, and he's more than happy and eager to protect her, provide for her, and support her just like she's used to and how he's been raised. All couples are different, I don't see anything wrong with the dynamic these two have since it so clearly works for both. And personally, I find them to be beyond adorable together and think they're in it for the long haul.

ETA: Oh and also to add that with Josh, I see Andi being really sweet and doting too, probably another trait she picked up from how she was raised that she should be doting on her man. She's already propping him up, wiping his tears, thinking of things he'd like, etc.

I'm definitely an Andi apologizer, it's true!