Bachelorette 10 - Andi Dorfman and CH's Blog - *Spoilers* - Discussion

emusha wrote:...
I think Andi is also self-sabotaging with both of these guys at the moment... she's overanalyzing and she's not yet letting herself truly be vulnerable to fall in love - connect in a very intimate space - (I'm going to acknowledge that overanalyzing and self-sabotaging is totally common for many women)...  she says Josh isn't serious enough/he's too happy, easy-going but ohh sooo kind and sweet, Nick is too serious doesn't constantly entertainin her but he makes her feel intense emotions she doesn't know what to do with & he "gets her" ....

Cutting for brevity:

I agree with you. And I think she would too!

She said it to Josh during dinner, and she says it in the preview and she says it at the start of Josh's date: she can't just relax and let go, she keeps thinking of the bad, she is a worrier...

I think she needs to come to a point where she manages to just feel. And the fact that she is aware of her own over-analytical side makes me hope she does in the end.

BachfanNY wrote:

bleuberry wrote:

BachfanNY wrote:

Me either and I don't think she will.

In her Morning Blend interview she was asked if she would consider a TV gig and she said she's really proud of being a ADA and that's what she wants to do. "I'm excited to be an attorney, I worked really hard for that, I don't think anyone would want me hosting their show. That's not my forte, as they say, I should not quit my day job...I'm excited to be an attorney, I'm proud of that"

But she did

Only temporarily   Sounds like she wants to get back into it as soon as her and her F1 are settled.

Sorry, but I have to point out that even though she had been granted the extended leave of absence through December, she chose to resign anyway. I don't know why, but I don't see her going back anytime soon. That being said, if Josh is F1, a qualified attorney and financial planner would be a powerful team for helping athletes. I don't want to sound completely negative. I just don't see Andi ever being an ADA again. Which is okay, because it is a tough job and certainly not for everyone.

emusha wrote:I don't think we disagree on anything Alanna the only thing is I'm suggesting a different motivation from her end as well as fear of heartbreak particularly with how gleeful she seems at getting every guy to fall all over himself for her. I'm finding it silly that I only saw the bratty/diva side of her (by her own admission) when it all clicked for me how much strategizing went on in her head for her as she led up to pulling emotions from all the guys...it got very clear to me has she got Josh to pull out all the stops before she even marginally let herself go and fall for him (like she would go with her second top choice if he wasn't going to be up to par with his level of commitment & fall for the next best option... I mean isn't love supposed to be unconditional or something?) ...I found it distasteful to see her relishing the prospect of 2 people proposing to her. She was almost rubbing her palms at the thought!! That just seems terribly heartless and calculated. Talk about mind games....

For me, there's always been this element of "I have no clue who Andi is" feeling throughout these seasons and now it became very clear after her interactions with Chris, Josh & her convo with CH -- she's got that poker face as Eric Hill had astutely observed (I was wondering what the heck he was talking about) and I very clearly see the MeAndi who is lapping up all the ILY and baiting the guys to give them to her "I like hearing that" "it feels so good to hear [x] say this and that"...the way she handled Chris' goodbye was very disappointing - whining and crying as if it's his problem that he should get her out of.... hilarious how he so politely said "well what do you want me to say/do I don't know if that's a decision I can make."

I love reading your posts because they make total sense to me.   :WAVEY: 

I had a fairly neutral opinion of Andi throughout JuanPablo's season, until the post-FS meltdown.  I found her classless & mean  when she was making fun of the guy's accent and he catch phrase "It's okay".  All he was trying to say was that he accepted that she wasn't feeling it for him and he would simply say goodbye to her and they didn't need to beat a dead horse.  All she needed to do was remove herself from the process if she was no longer interested in him.  That is part of the premise of the show.  Her meltdown was very unattractive and she continued on with that unattractiveness at ATFR.  Throughout that season, scenes with her and Nikki made me feel they were both a bit rough around the edges and a bit bitchy.  The fact that she is now pals with Kelly the dog lover also clues me in to her personality and what kind of friends she keeps.  Things said on SM have been very unkind and mean spirited.  I judge a person by the company that they keep.

I've seen posts saying that Andi is an alpha personality.  I agree, but then again I don't.  I think Andi has a hard exterior.  Some of that is because of her profession, but I'd argue that she probably is good at her job becausee she has the right personality for it.  I find it interesting that a 29 year old woman refers to herself as bratty, a diva, and difficult.  I understand she is not trying to sugar coat herself.  When she said that she was moody or bitchy, as opposed to fake, with the Eric situation, that wasn't a red flag to me.  Everyone of us can be moody or bitchy at certain times.  But bratty, diva, and difficult mean something totally different to me.  Those things allude to a pampered little girl who was indulged in childhood, such that she grew up to be a woman who feels slighted when she doesn't get her own way.  I found it concerning that twice we heard directly out of her mouth (once with Nick and once with Josh) that she couldn't possibly be the disciplinarian parent because, in essence it was too hard and it wouldn't be any fun for her.  Nick had the best reaction to that;  I loved it.  He called her out and said that he wouldn't always want to be the bad guy parent and that they needed to work as a team.  He challenged her thinking.  I don't necessarily think that Josh did.  It's just a pet peeve of mine when parents try to be friends with their children instead of being their parent.  Yes, have fun and enjoy your children, but don't give them the moon on a silver platter or else I fear that they will grow up to be entitled, bratty, difficult divas.

To me, alpha male or female denotes a person naturally of strength and leadership.  I think Andi tries to put on a strong face, but underneath she is fearful and looking for someone else to handle of the tough stuff in life for her.  For example, it was talk about here at one time that Andi may not be able to pay for her apartment on her salary alone and perhaps Hy helps her.  While I know that life is expensive (rents, autos, utilities, etc), I would never subsidize my children's high-end, posh neighborhood rent.  I would tell them that they needed to live within their means and move to a less expensive zip code.  If she grew up accustomed to nice things, it is part of maturing to know that Rome wasn't built in a day.  In other words, you might get that nice stuff after a few decades on the job and stashing away the savings.  I think she sees in Josh a sugar daddy.  Not that I am saying that they aren't in love or they won't make it work.  But it is simply my opinion that she picked Josh over Nick partly based on the fact that Josh's mom is probably more accustomed to being pampered and taken care of (in a material sense) than Nick's mom (who has had 14? mouths to feed and presumably less disposable income to throw around).  Just ask yourself this:  When Andi said (to Marcus? on a date) that she eats sushi 7 days a week, what does that tell you about Andi's lifestyle?  I don't believe Andi rolls her own sushi, do you?  It's just the little things that I've picked up on this season that all add up to support the pampered princess persona.  

I loved what CH said in his blog:  Josh=comfort zone.  Nick=unknown.  I don't care if she picks Josh or Nick.  I'm not her, it's her life, and she the one who will need to make it work IRL.  But, when I hear a woman point out character flaws, and laugh about them, I sure hope she stops and thinks about them a bit and then tries to improve herself and grow.  That's all I'm saying, because as much as a bratty, difficult, diva wife is unattractive to me, a bratty, difficult, diva mother is even more so.  Peace.

MiaHawk wrote:[snipped for brevity]  

I loved what CH said in his blog:  Josh=comfort zone.  Nick=unknown.  I don't care if she picks Josh or Nick.  I'm not her, it's her life, and she the one who will need to make it work IRL.  But, when I hear a woman point out character flaws, and laugh about them, I sure hope she stops and thinks about them a bit and then tries to improve herself and grow.  That's all I'm saying, because as much as a bratty, difficult, diva wife is unattractive to me, a bratty, difficult, diva mother is even more so.  Peace.    

I don't disagree on your assessment of Andi necessarily but I don't view it poorly. IMO she does have a hard exterior hiding a pretty vulnerable/needy girl and she is a spoiled princess, but I just don't view them as terrible things, I guess. She knows who and what she is, and she went out and found a guy who loves everything about her, thinks her brattiness is beyond adorable, and has had no trouble keeping the diva in check, which she absolutely loves. I don't see it as a sugar daddy thing either, she's used to a certain lifestyle and again, went out and found someone who grew up in a similar household where the man is the provider and protector, and he's more than happy and eager to protect her, provide for her, and support her just like she's used to and how he's been raised. All couples are different, I don't see anything wrong with the dynamic these two have since it so clearly works for both. And personally, I find them to be beyond adorable together and think they're in it for the long haul.

ETA: Oh and also to add that with Josh, I see Andi being really sweet and doting too, probably another trait she picked up from how she was raised that she should be doting on her man. She's already propping him up, wiping his tears, thinking of things he'd like, etc.

I'm definitely an Andi apologizer, it's true!  

Mia and Alanna, I see both of your points.  I agree more with Mia as I don't find those traits in Andi cute, I find them annoying and agree very much that parenting isn't about being friends, but about raising good human beings..  My siblings had a real problem with this concept and out of six nieces and nephews only one is what I would consider a good human.

Alanna, I do agree that Josh likes Andi as she is, and that is great for her and will probably make them compatible or completely blow up.  Not sure which.

What I don't like is that I think people should always try to improve themselves.  So while it is good to know yourself, it is also good to try to improve those things that aren't so great, instead of just celebrate them and say good for me.

stuckinsc wrote:Mia and Alanna, I see both of your points.  I agree more with Mia as I don't find those traits in Andi cute, I find them annoying and agree very much that parenting isn't about being friends, but about raising good human beings..  My siblings had a real problem with this concept and out of six nieces and nephews only one is what I would consider a good human.

Alanna, I do agree that Josh likes Andi as she is, and that is great for her and will probably make them compatible or completely blow up.  Not sure which.

What I don't like is that I think people should always try to improve themselves.  So while it is good to know yourself, it is also good to try to improve those things that aren't so great, instead of just celebrate them and say good for me.

First, I agree that of all the the guys there, Josh appears to be the "best match" for her. For all of the reasons that Alanna stated above. He (at the present time) does not seem to be put off by her character flaws, etc. He does bring out a softer and playful side in her. I wish them the best of luck. Like all couples, it is not easy to emerge from the bubble and make it work for the long haul, but I give them better than 50/50 chance of making it.

Stuck, the bolded line above is the way I feel also. Maybe it is my age. Maybe it's how I was raised. Maybe it's how I've tried to raise my own children. DH and I are in a position where we could shower our kids with a lot more material things, but we choose not to. It's good for a child to be told "No" from time to time. It makes them appreciate the "Yes" even more. When they were really little and asked for some trinket I'd say "I don't have the money to buy that today." After they reached a certain age, I didn't want them to think that money was the only thing standing in the way of them getting everything they desired. Then my response turned to "That's not something that we really need." I want my kids to be able to be happy in life on the salaries that they make (even if that is less than DH and me). They've never gone without any essentials. They've had plenty. But they have been told "No" many times. I believe it strengthens one's self-discipline and minimizes the Keeping Up with the Jones mentality. Hopefully when they graduate from college and start off on their own, they won't be plagued with the feelings of inadequacy and failure that many 20-somethings feel now a days because they are not able to maintain the standard of living that was provided to them while living with their parents. In trying to make their children feel loved and taken care of, many parents have inadvertently created 20-somethings that need all of this stuff in order to feel like they are in a good place in life. This is especially true for college graduates who are just starting out. But, I have probably gone on too long about this point. I apologize.

I'm not saying that Andi isn't a good human being, because I do believe that she is. I even believe that she has done a decent job of being the lead, not perfect, but commendable. It just seems like a red flag to hear a grown woman unapologetically admit that she is bratty, difficult, and a diva. Who wants to live with that? But, then again, aren't there always those couples that you look at and say "What is that nice guy doing with that girl? He does everything for her?" (Or vice versa).

I guess I am always reminded by this show that there are all kinds of people and all kinds of couples. What works for one may not work for another. That's why there is vanilla, chocolate, and strawberry ice cream. Or, in my case....what was it Kash said?...oh, yeah....banana swirl. Yum!

MiaHawk wrote:

stuckinsc wrote:Mia and Alanna, I see both of your points.  I agree more with Mia as I don't find those traits in Andi cute, I find them annoying and agree very much that parenting isn't about being friends, but about raising good human beings..  My siblings had a real problem with this concept and out of six nieces and nephews only one is what I would consider a good human.

Alanna, I do agree that Josh likes Andi as she is, and that is great for her and will probably make them compatible or completely blow up.  Not sure which.

What I don't like is that I think people should always try to improve themselves.  So while it is good to know yourself, it is also good to try to improve those things that aren't so great, instead of just celebrate them and say good for me.

First, I agree that of all the the guys there, Josh appears to be the "best match" for her.  For all of the reasons that Alanna stated above.  He (at the present time) does not seem to be put off by her character flaws, etc.  He does bring out a softer and playful side in her.  I wish them the best of luck.  Like all couples, it is not easy to emerge from the bubble and make it work for the long haul, but I give them better than 50/50 chance of making it.

Stuck, the bolded line above is the way I feel also.  Maybe it is my age.  Maybe it's how I was raised.  Maybe it's how I've tried to raise my own children.  DH and I are in a position where we could shower our kids with a lot more material things, but we choose not to.  It's good for a child to be told "No" from time to time. It makes them appreciate the "Yes" even more.  When they were really little and asked for some trinket I'd say "I don't have the money to buy that today."  After they reached a certain age, I didn't want them to think that money was the only thing standing in the way of them getting everything they desired.  Then my response turned to "That's not something that we really need."  I want my kids to be able to be happy in life on the salaries that they make (even if that is less than DH and me).  They've never gone without any essentials.  They've had plenty.  But they have been told "No" many times. I believe it strengthens one's self-discipline and minimizes the Keeping Up with the Jones mentality.  Hopefully when they graduate from college and start off on their own, they won't be plagued with the feelings of inadequacy and failure that many 20-somethings feel now a days because they are not able to maintain the standard of living that was provided to them while living with their parents.  In trying to make their children feel loved and taken care of, many parents have inadvertently created 20-somethings that need all of this stuff in order to feel like they are in a good place in life.  This is especially true for college graduates who are just starting out.  But, I have probably gone on too long about this point.  I apologize.  

I'm not saying that Andi isn't a good human being, because I do believe that she is.  I even believe that she has done a decent job of being the lead, not perfect, but commendable.  It just seems like a red flag to hear a grown woman unapologetically admit that she is bratty, difficult, and a diva. Who wants to live with that?  But, then again, aren't there always those couples that you look at and say "What is that nice guy doing with that girl?  He does everything for her?"  (Or vice versa).  

I guess I am always reminded by this show that there are all kinds of people and all kinds of couples.  What works for one may not work for another. That's why there is vanilla, chocolate, and strawberry ice cream.  Or, in my case....what was it Kash said?...oh, yeah....banana swirl. Yum!        

Mia sounds like you and your husband did a great job.  I wish my siblings could have learned from you.  I was often mean Aunt Katy, because I believed in the kids cleaning the kitchen and doing the dishes after dinner.  One of my nephews had a porn issue in middle school and high school and caused two family computers to get viruses that required a trip to the BestBuy to get the stupid things working again.  After that, I said no computer for you.  You have work to do for school, enjoy the library, because you can't be trusted with the computers that I had to buy for myself and my parents.  His mom and my mom let him back on the computer and in one week, surprise the computer is not working again.  No is a great word and something we all have to hear to appreciate all the other good things we have in our life. 

Sorry for the rant, but this is a huge pet peeve of mine.  I lived in Atlanta on $21,000 a year as a graduate student. It was hard and I had roommates and didn't go out much, but I did it.  I don't respect anyone who graduates from college and a graduate degree and still has mommy and daddy paying their rent.  To me that is a flaw in the whole family.

MiaHawk wrote:It just seems like a red flag to hear a grown woman unapologetically admit that she is bratty, difficult, and a diva.

i'm not sure she was being unapologetic about her flaws. i just took it more as self-awareness which is certainly preferable to being oblivious to it. i've a friend or two who is a bit high-maintaintenance and "difficult" and when they have made similar comments about themselves they weren't making excuses but just being self-aware. andi is still young so i'm sure she'll grow out of some of this. i think josh helps her when he teases her about her ways because he isn't indulging her behavior but playfully diffusing it. when he does that i think she realizes how silly it is and doesn't continue with it. he gets her so he can either joke with her about it or call her on it if need be. i think she'll be responsive because she knows he cares and understands her. jmo.

gabriele wrote:

MiaHawk wrote:It just seems like a red flag to hear a grown woman unapologetically admit that she is bratty, difficult, and a diva.

i'm not sure she was being unapologetic about her flaws. i just took it more as self-awareness which is certainly preferable to being oblivious to it. i've a friend or two who is a bit high-maintaintenance and "difficult" and when they have made similar comments about themselves they weren't making excuses but just being self-aware. andi is still young so i'm sure she'll grow out of some of this. i think josh helps her when he teases her about her ways because he isn't indulging her behavior but playfully diffusing it. when he does that i think she realizes how silly it is and doesn't continue with it. he gets her so he can either joke with her about it or call her on it if need be. i think she'll be responsive because she knows he cares and understands her. jmo.

Yes, perhaps Josh's ability to tease/joke is a good way to diffuse Andi. I think a more stern or serious conversation might put her on the defensive. Yes, she is young and still has much growing to do. I admit that I have a definite bias against divas. Even the self-admitted ones, . I definitely do have a dislike of pampered princesses. I admit it. It's not just Andi. Anytime I meet a needy, dependent, entitled diva, I think: That's a former spoiled brat. The world needs less spoiled brats and less divas, IMHO. Others may disagree, and that's totally fine, too. Peace.

stuckinsc wrote:
What I don't like is that I think people should always try to improve themselves.  So while it is good to know yourself, it is also good to try to improve those things that aren't so great, instead of just celebrate them and say good for me.

OMG YES!!!!! Thank you thank you thank you!!!    I want to preface this post that it's very hard to actually know these people and we likely are only seeing glimpses of who they are based on their choices in this show...and also that people do change, grow and reflect so I don't want this to come off like I'm trying to judge and bash andi...I'm just disappointed in some of her choices which right now seem to indicate her temperament which matches how she described herself as well...

Mia, stuckinsc thank you for helping me feel sane again -- kinda felt like I was going off the rocker with my crazy MeAndi thoughts back there hahaha...great insightful and grounded posts from you both - I also had no idea about her lifestyle in ATL and the possibly bankrolling by Hy.....ohh boy. I don't want to typecast but she is also the baby of the house and sometimes that plays into it.

Her tantrums with Chris (POOOOOR guy!! can't believe she put him through that sob-talk-moan-complain "but I don't waaannnaaa dooo iiiit" situation she made him sit through gosh how totally immature!!!), Eric (who had the audacity to be straight with her!!), JPG (well his has gotta be the cherry on top and I totally agree with you that she could have been a lady said her piece about how she felt disrespected by him and kept it classy!) and finally her completely repulsive relishing of every single guy fawning on her whatever the cost of heartbreak it entails....And how relatively unsupportive and rigid/calculated she's been with most every guy....

I'm very sad to admit this but since my eye opening realization about Andi -- and her keeping up with the jones, I'm the princess entitled to princess treatment perspective on relationship...I've had a bad daunting feeling in my gut that one of the main reasons Josh is likely Andi's pick is his demonstrated ability to put others before himself -- this AMAZINGLY beautiful selfless trait of Joshs' is an indicator for Andi that he'll wine, dine, shower her to her heart's content and beyond with very little consideration to himself ....I do think hopefully his family is his balance and they got his back and will look out for him even if Andi doesn't know the limit (as is obvious with how she reacted in her CH convo and her BLOG AGAIN TODAY?!?!?!?!?! wth! to the idea of two guys proposing to her -- where is the consideration and compassion?).

I completely completely agree with you both that spoiled entitled upbringings are very dangerous particularly for the people who have to deal with the person.

From what I am seeing, Andi seems to have been sheltered and princess-ed and has NOT gotten life's trials and tribulations to help her internalize certain things about entitlement vs. gratitude,  that relationships are about GIVE and take vs. being doted upon and not challenged, that relationships take vulnerability, connecting on imperfections and bringing out the best in each other from an intimate space and more. I think some of the best things about relationships are learning about your imperfections to grow incrementally into a better person -- more loving, compassionate, thoughtful and not-self centered...

In any case -- based on Josh's tweets with deep quotes about plans that don't go as imagined and about appearances - I'm still doubtful things are so cheery and rosy...I hope I'm not right on all this stuff to be honest, I prefer to stay positive and hope for the best so let that be what actually happened instead of these hurdles...

I think knowing your flaws and admitting having them are one thing but trying to improve them is another thing, so i believe that Andi just wanted Josh to be aware of those flaws (as there's not enough time) and maybe together they'll work on it (as much his too) and try to overcome them. You can always try to improve but it's easier said than done. There's a saying (don't know how to say it in english ) "l'habitude est une seconde nature".
The first step is to be aware of them and Andi does, so there's hope imo.

Emusha did you watch the interview Andi did after MTA taping that was posted yesterday ? she's happy, maybe it's not Josh.
http://www.accesshollywood.com/bachelorette-who-will-andi-choose_video_2249837