Juan Pablo Galavis - Nikki Ferrell - Bachelor 18 - Discussion

MiaHawk wrote:

ReneeM wrote:I think for me, the core of this issue is 'do I think it's ok for anyone to shame someone based on their sex and sexuality and how they choose to express it?' And my answer is no. To me a person's sex life (especially a woman, who society tends to shame) is their own and the only requirement I have is that they're honest with the other consenting party about what it does or doesn't mean. Separate from that I feel as if it's no one else's business. And yes, as women we do know what is perceived as being sl**** but I'm also not going to let what people may or may not think about me decide how I live my life. Personally I tend to feel uncomfortable wearing revealing clothing. It's just not my style but if I wanted to wear something revealing I would, if I chose to put a revealing picture of MY body on MY Instagram page I would  and if I personally was comfortable with it I wouldn't let how others thought about it dictate my life. But this is just a personal opinion.

The difference when he used the r word is that the word r***** is universally accepted as being slur that isn't acceptable anywhere (at least in North America) while the use of the word sl** and wh*** is not universally denounced and opinions tend to differ.  I have an intense dislike for these words because I feel as if in society they are gender specific, like the n word is specifically insulting to race and the word f** and d*** are specific insults to one's sexuality.

This woman not only insulted JP but went out of her way to do so (it's a lot of trouble to search for his Instagram name, sift through his pictures and make a rude comment as opposed to ignoring him if she doesn't like him) so I have no problem with him responding, I don't even have a problem with insulting her back but he insulted her with a word where all the negative connotations generally fall on a woman.

^^^This is an excellent post. I have read it and re-read it multiple times. You have said a great deal, and there is a lot to think about.

The line I bolded above is what you describe as the core of this issue (JPG calling that woman a sl*t on her SM account after she called him a d******* on his, and if is ever justifiable to call a woman a sl*t.)  See, I tend to agree with Mustang who said she doesn't think that JPG called her a sl*t to "shame" her, but rather it was an angry exchange of name calling.  She insulted him, so her returned the favor. But, the way you pose the question here is intriguing to me. So, I have tried to see things from this point of view.

I, personally, agree with you that a person's sexual life and sexual persuasion and sexual preferences is purely their own business and nobody else's (except for their consenting partner). I've always thought of a person's sex life as what takes place behind closed doors in privacy, but, maybe there is a different way to look at it. Maybe I need to look at it from a more modern approach---that SM is a pseudo-private, quasi-public forum in which a person may choose to conduct themselves in a sexually provocative manner as a sort of introductory step in their dating and mating ritual. I have a difficult time seeing it this way, however, because it's really not private or an intimate exchange between 2 adults, and that is how I define a person's sex life.

It's admirable and idealistic to think that she shouldn't alter her behavior based on public opinion.  That she should do as she pleases. I say that if it was behind closed doors, it's nobody's business, but once you walk out onto the street it does become somebody else's business.  Society has norms and standards. If a middle school teacher came to work dressed like Elvira Mistress of the Dark, she would be sent home to change. If a girl goes to our HS prom and doesn't pass the dress code for appropriate dress, she would be sent home. There are dress codes in society, because when you interact with other people you have an effect on them and their relationship to you.  So, once a person chooses to put herself out there in the public domain (I that includes SM) they are opening themselves up to be judged. Appropriate versus inappropriate. Conservative versus Wild.

She doesn't have to change her behavior on SM if she doesn't want to, but that doesn't change the fact that there will be people who will judge her for it. Just look at how employers scowl the internet looking at prospective employee's SM accounts as a means to assess their character. It is real, and to pretend it doesn't exist won't help you in the long run.  I guess if she is a lingerie model, she doesn't care if future employers see her body. It's her choice to do it, and she has. But it's not a private portfolio that is viewed only by the modeling professionals. She has put it out there. And if you are JPG and you've just been called a D******* by her, and you're looking for an insult to sling back at her, she gave him the perfect set up for what word he could use.

I agree that N***** is a racial slur, that F** and D**** are homophobic slurs. But, race and sexual orientation are things that you are born with, you don't choose them.  Sl*tty behavior is a conscious choice. Nobody is born a sl*t. That is where I see the difference and where I initially did not agree with the comparisons made.  The idea that sl*t is a female slur that does not have a male equivalency....that makes me take pause...because I really haven't been able to come up with any word other than "player".  And that word is pretty diluted.  

So, if I'm to believe that Sl*t is a gender driven bias, then I have to believe that it is driven by a man's desire to demean a woman for her sex life and sexual expression. So, is that one person making a judgment about another person's public behavior? Or is that one person (of a majority group or a group of perceived power) exerting some sort of intimidation tactic on another person who is perceived to be subservient or inferior to them? Historically, whites in the majority exerted power over blacks in the minority because of a perceived superiority of one race over another and because they had the societal power to do so. Heterosexuals in the majority may have perceived homosexuals as deviating from the long established social norms, and they used slurs to shame them for their differences.  Perhaps a sl*t slur is a man's attempt to exert his moral superiority or power over a woman who deviates from the societal norm of what level of (private/public) sexuality is currently the norm?

If I am to believe this then I think it would need to be a word that men use (those in the power position), but women do not.  And women do use that word as an insult towards other women. So....  But, no, that's not clear either, because we know that blacks frequently use the N-word as a casual term among themselves and it is not perceived as an insult when they say it to each other. But if a white person said it to a black person it would be considered a slur.  Although there are many blacks who equally dislike the use of the word. So.....

So, after all of this thinking aloud I'm still not sure if I view the word sl*t as a shaming tool against women. Maybe it is. Maybe it isn't. I guess the only thing I know for sure is that it is very complicated and we all see things differently.              

bluwavz wrote:

Also is there such a thing as a man dressing like a sl**? If so, what would that look like?

Kashathediva wrote:

Also is there such a thing as a man dressing like a sl**? If so, what would that look like?

Definitely would look like RS---that lil man-ho!

MiaHawk wrote:I would say it would probably look like Nick S. on Andi's stripper date or John Travolta in "Saturday Night Fever". giggling

stuckinsc wrote:As far as sl** and it's connotations.  For me, I don't find the word that offensive and truthfully until I hear women stop using it themselves to refer to each other, I am not going to blame a man for using the same word.  And yes, I do call me sluts, and mean it as such that they are acting in a way that I don't find attractive or appropriate either.

I also agree with Mia, your sex life is your business, until you chose to put it in other peoples' faces, then you give them the right to comment on you.  It is very much your problem if you do that and you should hide behind being a woman or anything else if you chose to make your sex life public.  To me, own it and take responsibility for it.

As for prude, let me tell you I have heard that said and also heard the comments that go with it, like frigid.  And yes, this also happens from other women, not just men.

And to me, a man in too tight pants and with a shirt unbuttoned to much looks sleezy and sl*tty to me. And to be fair, I totally make fun of men who dress like that.

MiaHawk wrote:I really didn't follow JPG's life beyond the airing of his ATFR show. I did hear peripherally about a homophobic slur around that time and I've gathered from reading these posts that he used the R-word.  And now the issue of the S-word.  

I agree that it shows he has an impulsive nature and insensitive streak, at the very least.  I think he has proven the tendency to blurt things out without thinking them through. I think he's more of an emotional reactionist than a cerebral pragmatist.  I don't think this has served him too well in his personal life.  I know it's so easy to be defensive and crass when you're on a computer or a smart phone.  But that is no excuse for his behavior. One would hope that JPG would learn from his mistakes, but I don't count on it. He doesn't seem the type to appreciate long introspective glances. JMHO.    

grace8136 wrote:

MiaHawk wrote:I really didn't follow JPG's life beyond the airing of his ATFR show. I did hear peripherally about a homophobic slur around that time and I've gathered from reading these posts that he used the R-word.  And now the issue of the S-word.  

I agree that it shows he has an impulsive nature and insensitive streak, at the very least.  I think he has proven the tendency to blurt things out without thinking them through. I think he's more of an emotional reactionist than a cerebral pragmatist.  I don't think this has served him too well in his personal life.  I know it's so easy to be defensive and crass when you're on a computer or a smart phone.  But that is no excuse for his behavior. One would hope that JPG would learn from his mistakes, but I don't count on it. He doesn't seem the type to appreciate long introspective glances. JMHO.    

I so agree with this! It's my biggest problem with him. I'd be going along with "everyone makes mistakes," but he doesn't admit to mistakes EVEN when the other person is telling him that he has hurt them, so he can't be learning and growing from them. After CT, I didn't like Nikki much either, but I believe Nikki has a way better shot at a good relationship in the future. I think she can listen and adapt. Her attitude towards fans may have been mostly because all of it was pretty humiliating for her, from the FRC until the break-up. SM was awful for her, so she wanted to be able to go out unnoticed. Even fans became an intrusion. She still should have zipped it. Had she had the happy ending that some F1s get, she may have handled it better. Mean girl, bratty, insensitive are all things that an even slightly introspective person can grow out of, so overall my money would be on Nikki for the future. I can give her the "everybody makes mistakes" pass. In 10 years.. JP will be exactly the same. jmho.

Also, agree with Amberish on that ring. Whoopty doo that he scrolled down her IG.   If he had randomly done it outside of the show, good. Producer driven show prop. She might as well wear it because there's little meaning in it attached to JP. jmho

On porn consumers. Funny conversation on that term! Porn books like 50 shades, no biggie, but Jenna is the poster child for why porn destroys women. I know she won some debate on it and she's said she made so much money, but she is a complete wreck. I'm not sure I've ever seen a person with more emotional problems than Jenna. Maybe some of that was addiction, but the addiction is probably rooted in the porn. This topic made me remember that Brooks was involved in a campaign against it... "Porn Kills Love" The site has some good info. fightthenewdrug.org This quote stood out to me..
“By inundating girls and women with the message that their most worthy attribute is their sexual hotness and crowding out other messages, pop culture is grooming them just like an individual perpetrator would. It is slowly chipping away at their self-esteem, stripping them of a sense of themselves as whole human beings, and providing them with an identity that emphasizes sex and de-emphasizes every other human attribute.”
With that, I would say that calling a girl a sl** may only add to the message she already got along the way. Not ever helpful. jmho

grace8136 wrote:

MiaHawk wrote:I really didn't follow JPG's life beyond the airing of his ATFR show. I did hear peripherally about a homophobic slur around that time and I've gathered from reading these posts that he used the R-word.  And now the issue of the S-word.  

I agree that it shows he has an impulsive nature and insensitive streak, at the very least.  I think he has proven the tendency to blurt things out without thinking them through. I think he's more of an emotional reactionist than a cerebral pragmatist.  I don't think this has served him too well in his personal life.  I know it's so easy to be defensive and crass when you're on a computer or a smart phone.  But that is no excuse for his behavior. One would hope that JPG would learn from his mistakes, but I don't count on it. He doesn't seem the type to appreciate long introspective glances. JMHO.    

I so agree with this! It's my biggest problem with him. I'd be going along with "everyone makes mistakes," but he doesn't admit to mistakes EVEN when the other person is telling him that he has hurt them, so he can't be learning and growing from them. After CT, I didn't like Nikki much either, but I believe Nikki has a way better shot at a good relationship in the future. I think she can listen and adapt. Her attitude towards fans may have been mostly because all of it was pretty humiliating for her, from the FRC until the break-up. SM was awful for her, so she wanted to be able to go out unnoticed. Even fans became an intrusion. She still should have zipped it. Had she had the happy ending that some F1s get, she may have handled it better. Mean girl, bratty, insensitive are all things that an even slightly introspective person can grow out of, so overall my money would be on Nikki for the future. I can give her the "everybody makes mistakes" pass. In 10 years.. JP will be exactly the same. jmho.

Also, agree with Amberish on that ring. Whoopty doo that he scrolled down her IG.   If he had randomly done it outside of the show, good. Producer driven show prop. She might as well wear it because there's little meaning in it attached to JP. jmho

On porn consumers. Funny conversation on that term! Porn books like 50 shades, no biggie, but Jenna is the poster child for why porn destroys women. I know she won some debate on it and she's said she made so much money, but she is a complete wreck. I'm not sure I've ever seen a person with more emotional problems than Jenna. Maybe some of that was addiction, but the addiction is probably rooted in the porn. This topic made me remember that Brooks was involved in a campaign against it... "Porn Kills Love" The site has some good info. fightthenewdrug.org This quote stood out to me..
“By inundating girls and women with the message that their most worthy attribute is their sexual hotness and crowding out other messages, pop culture is grooming them just like an individual perpetrator would. It is slowly chipping away at their self-esteem, stripping them of a sense of themselves as whole human beings, and providing them with an identity that emphasizes sex and de-emphasizes every other human attribute.”
With that, I would say that calling a girl a sl** may only add to the message she already got along the way. Not ever helpful. jmho

grace8136 wrote:

MiaHawk wrote:I really didn't follow JPG's life beyond the airing of his ATFR show. I did hear peripherally about a homophobic slur around that time and I've gathered from reading these posts that he used the R-word.  And now the issue of the S-word.  

I agree that it shows he has an impulsive nature and insensitive streak, at the very least.  I think he has proven the tendency to blurt things out without thinking them through. I think he's more of an emotional reactionist than a cerebral pragmatist.  I don't think this has served him too well in his personal life.  I know it's so easy to be defensive and crass when you're on a computer or a smart phone.  But that is no excuse for his behavior. One would hope that JPG would learn from his mistakes, but I don't count on it. He doesn't seem the type to appreciate long introspective glances. JMHO.    

I so agree with this! It's my biggest problem with him. I'd be going along with "everyone makes mistakes," but he doesn't admit to mistakes EVEN when the other person is telling him that he has hurt them, so he can't be learning and growing from them. After CT, I didn't like Nikki much either, but I believe Nikki has a way better shot at a good relationship in the future. I think she can listen and adapt. Her attitude towards fans may have been mostly because all of it was pretty humiliating for her, from the FRC until the break-up. SM was awful for her, so she wanted to be able to go out unnoticed. Even fans became an intrusion. She still should have zipped it. Had she had the happy ending that some F1s get, she may have handled it better. Mean girl, bratty, insensitive are all things that an even slightly introspective person can grow out of, so overall my money would be on Nikki for the future. I can give her the "everybody makes mistakes" pass. In 10 years.. JP will be exactly the same. jmho.

Also, agree with Amberish on that ring. Whoopty doo that he scrolled down her IG.   If he had randomly done it outside of the show, good. Producer driven show prop. She might as well wear it because there's little meaning in it attached to JP. jmho

On porn consumers. Funny conversation on that term! Porn books like 50 shades, no biggie, but Jenna is the poster child for why porn destroys women. I know she won some debate on it and she's said she made so much money, but she is a complete wreck. I'm not sure I've ever seen a person with more emotional problems than Jenna. Maybe some of that was addiction, but the addiction is probably rooted in the porn. This topic made me remember that Brooks was involved in a campaign against it... "Porn Kills Love" The site has some good info. fightthenewdrug.org This quote stood out to me..
“By inundating girls and women with the message that their most worthy attribute is their sexual hotness and crowding out other messages, pop culture is grooming them just like an individual perpetrator would. It is slowly chipping away at their self-esteem, stripping them of a sense of themselves as whole human beings, and providing them with an identity that emphasizes sex and de-emphasizes every other human attribute.”
With that, I would say that calling a girl a sl** may only add to the message she already got along the way. Not ever helpful. jmho

stuckinsc wrote:

grace8136 wrote:

MiaHawk wrote:I really didn't follow JPG's life beyond the airing of his ATFR show. I did hear peripherally about a homophobic slur around that time and I've gathered from reading these posts that he used the R-word.  And now the issue of the S-word.  

I agree that it shows he has an impulsive nature and insensitive streak, at the very least.  I think he has proven the tendency to blurt things out without thinking them through. I think he's more of an emotional reactionist than a cerebral pragmatist.  I don't think this has served him too well in his personal life.  I know it's so easy to be defensive and crass when you're on a computer or a smart phone.  But that is no excuse for his behavior. One would hope that JPG would learn from his mistakes, but I don't count on it. He doesn't seem the type to appreciate long introspective glances. JMHO.    

I so agree with this! It's my biggest problem with him. I'd be going along with "everyone makes mistakes," but he doesn't admit to mistakes EVEN when the other person is telling him that he has hurt them, so he can't be learning and growing from them. After CT, I didn't like Nikki much either, but I believe Nikki has a way better shot at a good relationship in the future. I think she can listen and adapt. Her attitude towards fans may have been mostly because all of it was pretty humiliating for her, from the FRC until the break-up. SM was awful for her, so she wanted to be able to go out unnoticed. Even fans became an intrusion. She still should have zipped it. Had she had the happy ending that some F1s get, she may have handled it better. Mean girl, bratty, insensitive are all things that an even slightly introspective person can grow out of, so overall my money would be on Nikki for the future. I can give her the "everybody makes mistakes" pass. In 10 years.. JP will be exactly the same. jmho.

Also, agree with Amberish on that ring. Whoopty doo that he scrolled down her IG.   If he had randomly done it outside of the show, good. Producer driven show prop. She might as well wear it because there's little meaning in it attached to JP. jmho

On porn consumers. Funny conversation on that term! Porn books like 50 shades, no biggie, but Jenna is the poster child for why porn destroys women. I know she won some debate on it and she's said she made so much money, but she is a complete wreck. I'm not sure I've ever seen a person with more emotional problems than Jenna. Maybe some of that was addiction, but the addiction is probably rooted in the porn. This topic made me remember that Brooks was involved in a campaign against it... "Porn Kills Love" The site has some good info. fightthenewdrug.org This quote stood out to me..
“By inundating girls and women with the message that their most worthy attribute is their sexual hotness and crowding out other messages, pop culture is grooming them just like an individual perpetrator would. It is slowly chipping away at their self-esteem, stripping them of a sense of themselves as whole human beings, and providing them with an identity that emphasizes sex and de-emphasizes every other human attribute.”
With that, I would say that calling a girl a sl** may only add to the message she already got along the way. Not ever helpful. jmho

Interesting post.  While I don't agree about Nikki and JPG, I appreciate the well thought out response.

As for Jenna, she reminds me very much of my sister and others who I have known.  The addiction is actually self medication for mental disease.  I have no idea what Jenna's diagnosis would be but she is not a healthy woman emotionally.  My sister was bipolar and the drugs for her were much better than the medications that the doctors could give her.  Those always felt like they took away her ability to feel, those were her words, not mine.  I worked for another bipolar who was much the same, though her favorite drug was alcohol.  Doc would probably be better to discuss this, but I don't think porn caused the damage to Jenna, I thought that came from the r*pes and the abuse from her father.  I know in the attempt to get her drugs my sister stole from me all of my college savings and even had sex in exchange for drugs.

I see both sides on the porn spectrum.  One of my husband's friends stripped for a while and for her it was about owning her body and also making more money than she could almost any other way.  She is a PhD now with a very good job.  Not the norm at all.  This one is hard for me, because if a woman genuinely chooses that is how she wants to use her body, then who am I to tell her otherwise?  I also don't think porn itself is always the thing that destroys, I know for many it is entertainment, not something they need or expect to always be.  I guess those that take it as more and expect all sex to be that way are probably those with issues other ways.  The way porn seems to be hurting people to me is a symptom of society as a whole.  I see us taking less responsibility for ourselves and our actions and liking to blame others. But then again, I believe that our values come from our families and ourselves.  I am extremely different from the rest of my family, but that is because I grew up knowing that I didn't want to fall into their traps and definitely didn't want to be like them.  I guess because I worked so long and hard to get away from all of that, I don't really believe that anything can make us be anything that we don't want to be, it is our choice and how we respond and live our lives is our responsibility.  I think too many people use things as excuses for their behavior instead of taking responsibility.

stuckinsc wrote:I also agree with Mia, your sex life is your business, until you chose to put it in other peoples' faces, then you give them the right to comment on you.  It is very much your problem if you do that and you should hide behind being a woman or anything else if you chose to make your sex life public.  To me, own it and take responsibility for it.