Juan Pablo Galavis - Nikki Ferrell - Bachelor 18 - Discussion

ReneeM wrote:I think for me, the core of this issue is 'do I think it's ok for anyone to shame someone based on their sex and sexuality and how they choose to express it?' And my answer is no. To me a person's sex life (especially a woman, who society tends to shame) is their own and the only requirement I have is that they're honest with the other consenting party about what it does or doesn't mean. Separate from that I feel as if it's no one else's business. And yes, as women we do know what is perceived as being sl**** but I'm also not going to let what people may or may not think about me decide how I live my life. Personally I tend to feel uncomfortable wearing revealing clothing. It's just not my style but if I wanted to wear something revealing I would, if I chose to put a revealing picture of MY body on MY Instagram page I would  and if I personally was comfortable with it I wouldn't let how others thought about it dictate my life. But this is just a personal opinion.

The difference when he used the r word is that the word r***** is universally accepted as being slur that isn't acceptable anywhere (at least in North America) while the use of the word sl** and wh*** is not universally denounced and opinions tend to differ.  I have an intense dislike for these words because I feel as if in society they are gender specific, like the n word is specifically insulting to race and the word f** and d*** are specific insults to one's sexuality.

This woman not only insulted JP but went out of her way to do so (it's a lot of trouble to search for his Instagram name, sift through his pictures and make a rude comment as opposed to ignoring him if she doesn't like him) so I have no problem with him responding, I don't even have a problem with insulting her back but he insulted her with a word where all the negative connotations generally fall on a woman.

Mustang19 wrote:

ReneeM wrote:I think for me, the core of this issue is 'do I think it's ok for anyone to shame someone based on their sex and sexuality and how they choose to express it?' And my answer is no. To me a person's sex life (especially a woman, who society tends to shame) is their own and the only requirement I have is that they're honest with the other consenting party about what it does or doesn't mean. Separate from that I feel as if it's no one else's business. And yes, as women we do know what is perceived as being sl**** but I'm also not going to let what people may or may not think about me decide how I live my life. Personally I tend to feel uncomfortable wearing revealing clothing. It's just not my style but if I wanted to wear something revealing I would, if I chose to put a revealing picture of MY body on MY Instagram page I would  and if I personally was comfortable with it I wouldn't let how others thought about it dictate my life. But this is just a personal opinion.

The difference when he used the r word is that the word r***** is universally accepted as being slur that isn't acceptable anywhere (at least in North America) while the use of the word sl** and wh*** is not universally denounced and opinions tend to differ.  I have an intense dislike for these words because I feel as if in society they are gender specific, like the n word is specifically insulting to race and the word f** and d*** are specific insults to one's sexuality.

This woman not only insulted JP but went out of her way to do so (it's a lot of trouble to search for his Instagram name, sift through his pictures and make a rude comment as opposed to ignoring him if she doesn't like him) so I have no problem with him responding, I don't even have a problem with insulting her back but he insulted her with a word where all the negative connotations generally fall on a woman.

Agreed. I believe there have been discussions on this board in the past similar to this with regards to name calling. I believe that's all this was between the two. They were trying to offend or insult one another and that's it. I have a very good friend who once in a blue moon will use the R word to describe something silly or stupid. I know that a lot of people find this word offensive. I personally don't use it, but I don't get up in arms when someone does and I have an autistic grandson in special needs. I feel that some things get blown out of proportion and too PC sometimes. I mostly look at the intent when using it. If someone is using it with hatred, to bully, or in anger, it has different meaning for me. To say something is retarded, to me that means it's stupid or silly. Have we not all called the person who cut us off in the car an A-hole? Have we not called people (especially from this show) idiots or morons? Should all the idiots and morons be offended? It boils down to name calling and I place more weight on the intent behind it. If they are trying to hurt the person they are calling out or bully them, then that's more of a problem for me. I see no difference in sl** or douchebag, they were both better off left unsaid. I certainly don't link him saying it in this instance with violence toward women. If she had not sought him out to insult him, she would not have received that response. She is equally to blame, and maybe more so for starting it.

Mustang19 wrote:

ReneeM wrote:I think for me, the core of this issue is 'do I think it's ok for anyone to shame someone based on their sex and sexuality and how they choose to express it?' And my answer is no. To me a person's sex life (especially a woman, who society tends to shame) is their own and the only requirement I have is that they're honest with the other consenting party about what it does or doesn't mean. Separate from that I feel as if it's no one else's business. And yes, as women we do know what is perceived as being sl**** but I'm also not going to let what people may or may not think about me decide how I live my life. Personally I tend to feel uncomfortable wearing revealing clothing. It's just not my style but if I wanted to wear something revealing I would, if I chose to put a revealing picture of MY body on MY Instagram page I would  and if I personally was comfortable with it I wouldn't let how others thought about it dictate my life. But this is just a personal opinion.

The difference when he used the r word is that the word r***** is universally accepted as being slur that isn't acceptable anywhere (at least in North America) while the use of the word sl** and wh*** is not universally denounced and opinions tend to differ.  I have an intense dislike for these words because I feel as if in society they are gender specific, like the n word is specifically insulting to race and the word f** and d*** are specific insults to one's sexuality.

This woman not only insulted JP but went out of her way to do so (it's a lot of trouble to search for his Instagram name, sift through his pictures and make a rude comment as opposed to ignoring him if she doesn't like him) so I have no problem with him responding, I don't even have a problem with insulting her back but he insulted her with a word where all the negative connotations generally fall on a woman.

Agreed. I believe there have been discussions on this board in the past similar to this with regards to name calling. I believe that's all this was between the two. They were trying to offend or insult one another and that's it. I have a very good friend who once in a blue moon will use the R word to describe something silly or stupid. I know that a lot of people find this word offensive. I personally don't use it, but I don't get up in arms when someone does and I have an autistic grandson in special needs. I feel that some things get blown out of proportion and too PC sometimes. I mostly look at the intent when using it. If someone is using it with hatred, to bully, or in anger, it has different meaning for me. To say something is retarded, to me that means it's stupid or silly. Have we not all called the person who cut us off in the car an A-hole? Have we not called people (especially from this show) idiots or morons? Should all the idiots and morons be offended? It boils down to name calling and I place more weight on the intent behind it. If they are trying to hurt the person they are calling out or bully them, then that's more of a problem for me. I see no difference in sl** or douchebag, they were both better off left unsaid. I certainly don't link him saying it in this instance with violence toward women. If she had not sought him out to insult him, she would not have received that response. She is equally to blame, and maybe more so for starting it.

luvlady345 wrote:I don't see how anyone watching CT can call Nikki a mean girl on this show, watching CT Jenna/Cicely were mean girls to me very catty and two-faced.....

ReneeM wrote:I think for me, the core of this issue is 'do I think it's ok for anyone to shame someone based on their sex and sexuality and how they choose to express it?' And my answer is no. To me a person's sex life (especially a woman, who society tends to shame) is their own and the only requirement I have is that they're honest with the other consenting party about what it does or doesn't mean. Separate from that I feel as if it's no one else's business. And yes, as women we do know what is perceived as being sl**** but I'm also not going to let what people may or may not think about me decide how I live my life. Personally I tend to feel uncomfortable wearing revealing clothing. It's just not my style but if I wanted to wear something revealing I would, if I chose to put a revealing picture of MY body on MY Instagram page I would  and if I personally was comfortable with it I wouldn't let how others thought about it dictate my life. But this is just a personal opinion.

The difference when he used the r word is that the word r***** is universally accepted as being slur that isn't acceptable anywhere (at least in North America) while the use of the word sl** and wh*** is not universally denounced and opinions tend to differ.  I have an intense dislike for these words because I feel as if in society they are gender specific, like the n word is specifically insulting to race and the word f** and d*** are specific insults to one's sexuality.

This woman not only insulted JP but went out of her way to do so (it's a lot of trouble to search for his Instagram name, sift through his pictures and make a rude comment as opposed to ignoring him if she doesn't like him) so I have no problem with him responding, I don't even have a problem with insulting her back but he insulted her with a word where all the negative connotations generally fall on a woman.

Also is there such a thing as a man dressing like a sl**? If so, what would that look like?

MiaHawk wrote:

ReneeM wrote:I think for me, the core of this issue is 'do I think it's ok for anyone to shame someone based on their sex and sexuality and how they choose to express it?' And my answer is no. To me a person's sex life (especially a woman, who society tends to shame) is their own and the only requirement I have is that they're honest with the other consenting party about what it does or doesn't mean. Separate from that I feel as if it's no one else's business. And yes, as women we do know what is perceived as being sl**** but I'm also not going to let what people may or may not think about me decide how I live my life. Personally I tend to feel uncomfortable wearing revealing clothing. It's just not my style but if I wanted to wear something revealing I would, if I chose to put a revealing picture of MY body on MY Instagram page I would  and if I personally was comfortable with it I wouldn't let how others thought about it dictate my life. But this is just a personal opinion.

The difference when he used the r word is that the word r***** is universally accepted as being slur that isn't acceptable anywhere (at least in North America) while the use of the word sl** and wh*** is not universally denounced and opinions tend to differ.  I have an intense dislike for these words because I feel as if in society they are gender specific, like the n word is specifically insulting to race and the word f** and d*** are specific insults to one's sexuality.

This woman not only insulted JP but went out of her way to do so (it's a lot of trouble to search for his Instagram name, sift through his pictures and make a rude comment as opposed to ignoring him if she doesn't like him) so I have no problem with him responding, I don't even have a problem with insulting her back but he insulted her with a word where all the negative connotations generally fall on a woman.

^^^This is an excellent post. I have read it and re-read it multiple times. You have said a great deal, and there is a lot to think about.

The line I bolded above is what you describe as the core of this issue (JPG calling that woman a sl*t on her SM account after she called him a d******* on his, and if is ever justifiable to call a woman a sl*t.)  See, I tend to agree with Mustang who said she doesn't think that JPG called her a sl*t to "shame" her, but rather it was an angry exchange of name calling.  She insulted him, so her returned the favor. But, the way you pose the question here is intriguing to me. So, I have tried to see things from this point of view.

I, personally, agree with you that a person's sexual life and sexual persuasion and sexual preferences is purely their own business and nobody else's (except for their consenting partner). I've always thought of a person's sex life as what takes place behind closed doors in privacy, but, maybe there is a different way to look at it. Maybe I need to look at it from a more modern approach---that SM is a pseudo-private, quasi-public forum in which a person may choose to conduct themselves in a sexually provocative manner as a sort of introductory step in their dating and mating ritual. I have a difficult time seeing it this way, however, because it's really not private or an intimate exchange between 2 adults, and that is how I define a person's sex life.

It's admirable and idealistic to think that she shouldn't alter her behavior based on public opinion.  That she should do as she pleases. I say that if it was behind closed doors, it's nobody's business, but once you walk out onto the street it does become somebody else's business.  Society has norms and standards. If a middle school teacher came to work dressed like Elvira Mistress of the Dark, she would be sent home to change. If a girl goes to our HS prom and doesn't pass the dress code for appropriate dress, she would be sent home. There are dress codes in society, because when you interact with other people you have an effect on them and their relationship to you.  So, once a person chooses to put herself out there in the public domain (I that includes SM) they are opening themselves up to be judged. Appropriate versus inappropriate. Conservative versus Wild.

She doesn't have to change her behavior on SM if she doesn't want to, but that doesn't change the fact that there will be people who will judge her for it. Just look at how employers scowl the internet looking at prospective employee's SM accounts as a means to assess their character. It is real, and to pretend it doesn't exist won't help you in the long run.  I guess if she is a lingerie model, she doesn't care if future employers see her body. It's her choice to do it, and she has. But it's not a private portfolio that is viewed only by the modeling professionals. She has put it out there. And if you are JPG and you've just been called a D******* by her, and you're looking for an insult to sling back at her, she gave him the perfect set up for what word he could use.

I agree that N***** is a racial slur, that F** and D**** are homophobic slurs. But, race and sexual orientation are things that you are born with, you don't choose them.  Sl*tty behavior is a conscious choice. Nobody is born a sl*t. That is where I see the difference and where I initially did not agree with the comparisons made.  The idea that sl*t is a female slur that does not have a male equivalency....that makes me take pause...because I really haven't been able to come up with any word other than "player".  And that word is pretty diluted.  

So, if I'm to believe that Sl*t is a gender driven bias, then I have to believe that it is driven by a man's desire to demean a woman for her sex life and sexual expression. So, is that one person making a judgment about another person's public behavior? Or is that one person (of a majority group or a group of perceived power) exerting some sort of intimidation tactic on another person who is perceived to be subservient or inferior to them? Historically, whites in the majority exerted power over blacks in the minority because of a perceived superiority of one race over another and because they had the societal power to do so. Heterosexuals in the majority may have perceived homosexuals as deviating from the long established social norms, and they used slurs to shame them for their differences.  Perhaps a sl*t slur is a man's attempt to exert his moral superiority or power over a woman who deviates from the societal norm of what level of (private/public) sexuality is currently the norm?

If I am to believe this then I think it would need to be a word that men use (those in the power position), but women do not.  And women do use that word as an insult towards other women. So....  But, no, that's not clear either, because we know that blacks frequently use the N-word as a casual term among themselves and it is not perceived as an insult when they say it to each other. But if a white person said it to a black person it would be considered a slur.  Although there are many blacks who equally dislike the use of the word. So.....

So, after all of this thinking aloud I'm still not sure if I view the word sl*t as a shaming tool against women. Maybe it is. Maybe it isn't. I guess the only thing I know for sure is that it is very complicated and we all see things differently.