Andi Dorfman- Bachelor 18 Contestant- Spoilers/Discussion

Yeah, but why not show her PI after Nikki's date? That's when she had the talk with JP. I didn't see the need for her to have 10 min. (or however long it was) of screen time just to talk about the date. They could've shown that at the same time that she confronted him. To me that was just a waste.

quietpal wrote:Yeah, but why not show her PI after Nikki's date? That's when she had the talk with JP. I didn't see the need for her to have 10 min. (or however long it was) of screen time just to talk about the date. They could've shown that at the same time that she confronted him. To me that was just a waste.

Maybe it was to distract people from concentrating on the Nikki and JP date?

quietpal wrote:Yeah, but why not show her PI after Nikki's date? That's when she had the talk with JP. I didn't see the need for her to have 10 min. (or however long it was) of screen time just to talk about the date. They could've shown that at the same time that she confronted him. To me that was just a waste.

In the case of Sharleen, Nikki was the only girl not in the room when she went to talk to them about leaving and taking a spot away from someone else and then she went to talk to JP.  Was Nikki still on her date (edit out of sync)  & or was Nikki elsewhere in the hotel?

albean99 wrote:

rosesrREd wrote:

albean99 wrote:I think we all saw a different scene. First of all there's nothing that says she had sex with him and I doubt very much she did. Yes she argued with him but was just trying to get her point across and it did go on too long. I don't feel she was attacking him at all and the tweets were pretty mild. Maybe she could have talked to him earlier and maybe she could have left sooner but she didn't and we weren't there. We watch a very highly edited show. I completely understand not liking someone. I still can't stand Clare for how she's acted all season. I guess I just don't see what Andi did as horrible and in fact liked that for once someone said what they were feeling. Maybe he was sending her home that week anyway but we don't know that.

I still think JP is a decent guy but I could never be with him. The cultural thing is just too different for me.

I get that.  I have been married to a man from Brazil now for almost 10 years now.  I lived a sheltered life growing up (very sheltered) and while I went to school with people of all colors, I never had boyfriends who weren't American.  I met my husband when I was 25 years old, and he was 20.  I knew instantly he was "the one", but it took me a long time to work through the cultural differences we had.  I see this happening with Juan Pablo.  As folks from North America, the way we date, and express our feelings, are way different than those in South America.  I can attest to that from my personal experience.  I don't think Juan Pablo is much different than any other Bachelor that has been on the show, as far as kissing, conversation etc..  However, the criticism he is getting is much harsher.  I think it's mainly because many don't understand how it is done in his culture.  I actually feel for him, because I think he is getting an unfair rap.

I think Andi wanted Juan Pablo to conform to her idea of what he should be, and that was disturbing to me.  I don't fault her at all for expressing her feelings, but she "beating him up" over the words "it's okay' was silly and childish.  One of the first words learned in the English language is the word "okay."  I bet we have all tried to talk to someone with limited English, and they could only respond back with "okay."   My husband who has been in the U.S. for 15 years, and speaks good English, still has a hard time comprehending some of the things I say to him.  My husband would always tell me that I was "belo" which is beautiful in Portuguese, because he wanted to compliment me, and he would say it a lot, because that was his way of expressing how he felt.  I think Juan meant what he said to most of those girls too.  I hate the way he has been demonized, and I hated the way Andi treated him.
 

Thanks for your insights. I can understand that. I think I'm reacting to the harsh comments on some posts. That I don't get. I don't know if I agree that JP has been demonized but certainly treated somewhat badly by TPTB almost more for not defending him and allowing him to look bad. My feeling about Andi and the "it's okay" is how he uses it and not so much what the words are. I think to Andi it was a way of shutting her up and not acknowledging her feelings. I doubt very much that she knows what you've learned after being with you husband for years. I read the email that RS posted and it gave me a little more understanding. I think knowing more about his culture might have helped the women going in. I liked JP all season and still do but think he shut down and really wasn't invested in the process by this point in filming. It seems that he just wants to get through with as little drama as possible which isn't always going to happen with women as we know. That coupled with Andi being a lawyer going into debate mode was a bad combination. I liked that she defended herself and explained where she was coming from but she should have cut it much shorter (I've worked with lawyers and it doesn't surprise me that she didn't) and of course talked to him about it earlier. I think it came across as more harsh than intended because he really didn't seem to understand what she was talking about. Maybe a guy thing as much as anything.  :greenman: 

It is always interesting to me how we can all watch the very same thing and see it in a completely different way.  From Andi's perspective, I do believe that that is exactly how she took it.  First of all, he made no attempt to try to persuade her to stay, AND he did not show any emotion in front of her.  So, Andi felt like JP was being dismissive with her, like she had meant nothing to him.

But, I felt like JP already was prepared for Andi to come tell him that she was leaving, so therefore it was not a real surprise when she did.  JP was already prepared to hear that she was removing herself and going home.  He has said over and over that he appreciates honesty, so he tried to be as honest with the women as he possibly could.  But, sometimes there is "honesty", and sometimes it comes across as "being brutally honesty".

I think that JP, while trying to stay true to himself and still remain as honest as possible, he sometimes had trouble expressing what he wanted to say. I don't know what was actually said during those conversations between him and Andi in the FS, but I felt that JP (when he said it was okay), was trying to express to Andi that he understood what she was saying to him, and he appreciated her being honest with him.  That was just how I saw it.  For JP, he didn't need to hash things over.  She had said that she wanted to leave, and that was that.

That sounds reasonable about JP, Longhornfan. I think there were some other things he did that made the FD worse but agree that he wasn't surprised.

Someone upthread said he told Andi why she barely made it earlier but that's not what we saw. It was JP saying it in a PI.

I believe that feelings aren't right or wrong, they just are. Andi felt disrespected by JP in the fantasy suite. I can understand her not liking hearing JP talk about his overnight date with Clare. I can also understand her not liking him tell her that she barely made it to the F3. Why would anyone want to hear that? There is honesty and then there is a kind of honesty that is really a kind of cruelty and callousness. It's not necessary for anyone to say exactly what is on their mind every single hour of the day. Sometimes it's best to hold back. It's all about being respectful of others and sensitive to their feelings. JP saying that this is who he is and he's just being honest, is a bit disingenuous. I have known people who trumpeted their so-called honesty, but it was really their way of rationalizing their own hostility and anger. That's why I am always a bit skeptical when anyone starts going on and on about just being honest.

I think that Andi made her decision and all that was left was to tell JP. Where I think she got lost is when she let his responses get to her. It really didn't matter at that point what he said. She had the realization that she didn't have real feelings for him and he didn't have any for her. She was true to herself in bowing out at that point. It might have been the lawyer in her that wouldn't allow her to just let it go at some point. She let JP's refrain of "it's okay" get to her all over again. She got angry and emotional. But the reason she was leaving is because JP didn't seem interested in her, didn't want to know anything about her, said things that were offensive and just wasn't into it. So why should she think he would behave any differently when she confronted him?

As for JP himself, I don't believe that he came into this wanting to find a wife and mother for his child. if he did, then he would have let Sharleen go. She was not going to settle down with him. I have no problem with him being the Bachelor for whatever reason, but I do think he bears some responsibility for what has happened. There is a huge cultural divide between JP and these women. That has been a big part of the problem. If this was in the real world, then they would have time to get to know each other and understand their different cultural beliefs. But this show doesn't provide that kind of time. So it was never going to work. I can't say that JP is being thrown under the bus any more than other Bachelors who came before him. But he has done some of the damage all by himself.

I think the WTA is going to be quite interesting. If some of the other women felt the same way as Andi, then we will know that there were valid reasons as to why Andi took herself out.

Nativenewyorker wrote:I believe that feelings aren't right or wrong, they just are. Andi felt disrespected by JP in the fantasy suite. I can understand her not liking hearing JP talk about his overnight date with Clare. I can also understand her not liking him tell her that she barely made it to the F3. Why would anyone want to hear that? There is honesty and then there is a kind of honesty that is really a kind of cruelty and callousness. It's not necessary for anyone to say exactly what is on their mind every single hour of the day. Sometimes it's best to hold back. It's all about being respectful of others and sensitive to their feelings. JP saying that this is who he is and he's just being honest, is a bit disingenuous. I have known people who trumpeted their so-called honesty, but it was really their way of rationalizing their own hostility and anger. That's why I am always a bit skeptical when anyone starts going on and on about just being honest.

I think that Andi made her decision and all that was left was to tell JP. Where I think she got lost is when she let his responses get to her. It really didn't matter at that point what he said. She had the realization that she didn't have real feelings for him and he didn't have any for her. She was true to herself in bowing out at that point. It might have been the lawyer in her that wouldn't allow her to just let it go at some point. She let JP's refrain of "it's okay" get to her all over again. She got angry and emotional. But the reason she was leaving is because JP didn't seem interested in her, didn't want to know anything about her, said things that were offensive and just wasn't into it. So why should she think he would behave any differently when she confronted him?

As for JP himself, I don't believe that he came into this wanting to find a wife and mother for his child. if he did, then he would have let Sharleen go. She was not going to settle down with him. I have no problem with him being the Bachelor for whatever reason, but I do think he bears some responsibility for what has happened. There is a huge cultural divide between JP and these women. That has been a big part of the problem. If this was in the real world, then they would have time to get to know each other and understand their different cultural beliefs. But this show doesn't provide that kind of time. So it was never going to work. I can't say that JP is being thrown under the bus any more than other Bachelors who came before him. But he has done some of the damage all by himself.

I think the WTA is going to be quite interesting. If some of the other women felt the same way as Andi, then we will know that there were valid reasons as to why Andi took herself out.

I TOTALLY DISAGREE with the first bolded statement! Juan Pablo is being treated HORRIBLY.  TPTB didn't even treat Jake or Ben as badly!

The second bolded part I agree with to a certain point.  I don't think Juan Pablo really thought he would find his wife/future partner here ( I think that is a realistic way to look at it).  I think they were throwing money at him and the promise of an adventure and meeting all these women and, who knows, possibly finding someone he reallly cared about.  I do think he found his special someone.  In reference to the other women feeling the same way as Andi, I think it is entirely possible.  I believe Juan Pablo is a very honest (yes, I said that :Biggrin: ) who cares about other people and it really bothers him to hurt others.  I think that that once he knew someone was not going to be "the one" he tried to emotionally distance himself from them, not to be mean but to not encourage them.  I really think that this was his way of trying to stay as true to himself while having to keep some there (because of TPTB) even when he wanted to send them home.  I think this was his way of trying to convey his feelings to the girls that he was just not feeling "it" with them even though he still liked them as a person.

Does this make sense to anyone or is it confusing?  I think JP is a good guy who tried his best to enjoy the situation while still being true to himself and his beliefs and not hurting anyone's feelings anymore than he had to.

George1218 wrote:

Nativenewyorker wrote:I believe that feelings aren't right or wrong, they just are. Andi felt disrespected by JP in the fantasy suite. I can understand her not liking hearing JP talk about his overnight date with Clare. I can also understand her not liking him tell her that she barely made it to the F3. Why would anyone want to hear that? There is honesty and then there is a kind of honesty that is really a kind of cruelty and callousness. It's not necessary for anyone to say exactly what is on their mind every single hour of the day. Sometimes it's best to hold back. It's all about being respectful of others and sensitive to their feelings. JP saying that this is who he is and he's just being honest, is a bit disingenuous. I have known people who trumpeted their so-called honesty, but it was really their way of rationalizing their own hostility and anger. That's why I am always a bit skeptical when anyone starts going on and on about just being honest.

I think that Andi made her decision and all that was left was to tell JP. Where I think she got lost is when she let his responses get to her. It really didn't matter at that point what he said. She had the realization that she didn't have real feelings for him and he didn't have any for her. She was true to herself in bowing out at that point. It might have been the lawyer in her that wouldn't allow her to just let it go at some point. She let JP's refrain of "it's okay" get to her all over again. She got angry and emotional. But the reason she was leaving is because JP didn't seem interested in her, didn't want to know anything about her, said things that were offensive and just wasn't into it. So why should she think he would behave any differently when she confronted him?

As for JP himself, I don't believe that he came into this wanting to find a wife and mother for his child. if he did, then he would have let Sharleen go. She was not going to settle down with him. I have no problem with him being the Bachelor for whatever reason, but I do think he bears some responsibility for what has happened. There is a huge cultural divide between JP and these women. That has been a big part of the problem. If this was in the real world, then they would have time to get to know each other and understand their different cultural beliefs. But this show doesn't provide that kind of time. So it was never going to work. I can't say that JP is being thrown under the bus any more than other Bachelors who came before him. But he has done some of the damage all by himself.

I think the WTA is going to be quite interesting. If some of the other women felt the same way as Andi, then we will know that there were valid reasons as to why Andi took herself out.

I TOTALLY DISAGREE with the first bolded statement! Juan Pablo is being treated HORRIBLY.  TPTB didn't even treat Jake or Ben as badly!

The second bolded part I agree with to a certain point.  I don't think Juan Pablo really thought he would find his wife/future partner here ( I think that is a realistic way to look at it).  I think they were throwing money at him and the promise of an adventure and meeting all these women and, who knows, possibly finding someone he reallly cared about.  I do think he found his special someone.  In reference to the other women feeling the same way as Andi, I think it is entirely possible.  I believe Juan Pablo is a very honest (yes, I said that  :Biggrin: ) who cares about other people and it really bothers him to hurt others.  I think that that once he knew someone was not going to be "the one" he tried to emotionally distance himself from them, not to be mean but to not encourage them.  I really think that this was his way of trying to stay as true to himself while having to keep some there (because of TPTB) even when he wanted to send them home.  I think this was his way of trying to convey his feelings to the girls that he was just not feeling "it" with them even though he still liked them as a person.

Does this make sense to anyone or is it confusing?  I think JP is a good guy who tried his best to enjoy the situation while still being true to himself and his beliefs and not hurting anyone's feelings anymore than he had to.  

Makes sense to me!  

George1218 wrote:

Nativenewyorker wrote:I believe that feelings aren't right or wrong, they just are. Andi felt disrespected by JP in the fantasy suite. I can understand her not liking hearing JP talk about his overnight date with Clare. I can also understand her not liking him tell her that she barely made it to the F3. Why would anyone want to hear that?  

I TOTALLY DISAGREE with the first bolded statement! Juan Pablo is being treated HORRIBLY.  TPTB didn't even treat Jake or Ben as badly!

The second bolded part I agree with to a certain point.  I don't think Juan Pablo really thought he would find his wife/future partner here ( I think that is a realistic way to look at it).  I think they were throwing money at him and the promise of an adventure and meeting all these women and, who knows, possibly finding someone he reallly cared about.  I do think he found his special someone.  In reference to the other women feeling the same way as Andi, I think it is entirely possible.  I believe Juan Pablo is a very honest (yes, I said that :Biggrin: ) who cares about other people and it really bothers him to hurt others.  I think that that once he knew someone was not going to be "the one" he tried to emotionally distance himself from them, not to be mean but to not encourage them.  I really think that this was his way of trying to stay as true to himself while having to keep some there (because of TPTB) even when he wanted to send them home.  I think this was his way of trying to convey his feelings to the girls that he was just not feeling "it" with them even though he still liked them as a person.

Does this make sense to anyone or is it confusing?  I think JP is a good guy who tried his best to enjoy the situation while still being true to himself and his beliefs and not hurting anyone's feelings anymore than he had to.

1. RE: Mention of Clare's FS date - I had thought JP had just referenced the existence of a FS date with Clare ... not going into details with Andi. I took this to mean he was just keeping the situation real while it seemed to me that Andi wanted him to make her feel like she was only one there.

2. RE: "Just making it" to F3 - JP did a fair job of explaining his concern that she was "forcing" her feelings of falling in love, which he didn't want.

3. RE: Distancing himself Yes! I started to take notice of him doing this with Cassandra and then with Chelsie. While on earlier episodes he was very engaged with each, his body language changed when he was ready to let them go.

4. RE: Andi's Anger - As I've said upthread, I think most of her anger was trumped up by TPTB as part of her Bachelorette audition. If I am wrong and she's truly upset with JP because he didn't ask more about her or her views in FS and spoke too much about himself, she should be angry at herself most of all for even going on show. Contestants should know 1) they might not actually be a match for Bachelor and 2) it's a numbers game with only one person "winning." She should thank her lucky stars that her Bachelor Bubble burst in the FS so that she can slide into Bachelorette role.

5. RE: JuanPa Run over by TPTB Bus - Well, you gotta admit he's making it easier than other Bachelors in past. The National Enquirer's deadbeat dad leak in Dec and then his Jan interview saying "no" to gay lead (w/the WTF explanation about being too "pervert") surely riled up many in fan base. If that didn't, the way he handled the whole Clare oceangate thing also divided fan base. I did NOT think he was sl*tshaming Clare. I heard him take responsibility and claim it was just as much his mistake. Yet, this has been repeatedly misrepresented in media. For example, Cathy Kelly on Afterbuzz brings up on nearly every show how JP put all the blame on Clare when that's simply not true. And now Andi's "nightmare" and subsequent fallout ... seems to me words are getting twisted and Fleiss is more than happy for the controversy. Viewers are taking sides and that's all they want.

6. Finally ... he is who he is: JP is very good looking, SEEMS to be loving dad/son, SEEMS to like women, SEEMS sensitive/kindhearted and definitely has lots of s*x appeal with obvious chemistry with many gals. But women can't be angry at HIM, for not liking what they discover when they peel back the covers. If they determine him to be a Bore or an A$$ or a Chauvinist or a Hypocrite or Unfeeling, they can just not accept the rose or ask to leave the show (and do it with class a la SHarlene).  They don't have to get all pissy at him because he's not their own personal Prince Charming. Andi should have gotten pissy at production for casting her. Or, at herself for going on show in first place!

Nativenewyorker wrote:I believe that feelings aren't right or wrong, they just are. Andi felt disrespected by JP in the fantasy suite. I can understand her not liking hearing JP talk about his overnight date with Clare. I can also understand her not liking him tell her that she barely made it to the F3. Why would anyone want to hear that? There is honesty and then there is a kind of honesty that is really a kind of cruelty and callousness. It's not necessary for anyone to say exactly what is on their mind every single hour of the day. Sometimes it's best to hold back. It's all about being respectful of others and sensitive to their feelings. JP saying that this is who he is and he's just being honest, is a bit disingenuous. I have known people who trumpeted their so-called honesty, but it was really their way of rationalizing their own hostility and anger. That's why I am always a bit skeptical when anyone starts going on and on about just being honest.

I think that Andi made her decision and all that was left was to tell JP. Where I think she got lost is when she let his responses get to her. It really didn't matter at that point what he said. She had the realization that she didn't have real feelings for him and he didn't have any for her. She was true to herself in bowing out at that point. It might have been the lawyer in her that wouldn't allow her to just let it go at some point. She let JP's refrain of "it's okay" get to her all over again. She got angry and emotional. But the reason she was leaving is because JP didn't seem interested in her, didn't want to know anything about her, said things that were offensive and just wasn't into it. So why should she think he would behave any differently when she confronted him?

As for JP himself, I don't believe that he came into this wanting to find a wife and mother for his child. if he did, then he would have let Sharleen go. She was not going to settle down with him. I have no problem with him being the Bachelor for whatever reason, but I do think he bears some responsibility for what has happened. There is a huge cultural divide between JP and these women. That has been a big part of the problem. If this was in the real world, then they would have time to get to know each other and understand their different cultural beliefs. But this show doesn't provide that kind of time. So it was never going to work. I can't say that JP is being thrown under the bus any more than other Bachelors who came before him. But he has done some of the damage all by himself.

I think the WTA is going to be quite interesting. If some of the other women felt the same way as Andi, then we will know that there were valid reasons as to why Andi took herself out.

NNY: I have been trying to figure out how I feel about all this and I think you summed up my feelings as well   

Nativenewyorker wrote:I believe that feelings aren't right or wrong, they just are. Andi felt disrespected by JP in the fantasy suite. I can understand her not liking hearing JP talk about his overnight date with Clare. I can also understand her not liking him tell her that she barely made it to the F3. Why would anyone want to hear that? There is honesty and then there is a kind of honesty that is really a kind of cruelty and callousness. It's not necessary for anyone to say exactly what is on their mind every single hour of the day. Sometimes it's best to hold back. It's all about being respectful of others and sensitive to their feelings. JP saying that this is who he is and he's just being honest, is a bit disingenuous. I have known people who trumpeted their so-called honesty, but it was really their way of rationalizing their own hostility and anger. That's why I am always a bit skeptical when anyone starts going on and on about just being honest.

I think that Andi made her decision and all that was left was to tell JP. Where I think she got lost is when she let his responses get to her. It really didn't matter at that point what he said. She had the realization that she didn't have real feelings for him and he didn't have any for her. She was true to herself in bowing out at that point. It might have been the lawyer in her that wouldn't allow her to just let it go at some point. She let JP's refrain of "it's okay" get to her all over again. She got angry and emotional. But the reason she was leaving is because JP didn't seem interested in her, didn't want to know anything about her, said things that were offensive and just wasn't into it. So why should she think he would behave any differently when she confronted him?


As for JP himself, I don't believe that he came into this wanting to find a wife and mother for his child. if he did, then he would have let Sharleen go. She was not going to settle down with him. I have no problem with him being the Bachelor for whatever reason, but I do think he bears some responsibility for what has happened. There is a huge cultural divide between JP and these women. That has been a big part of the problem. If this was in the real world, then they would have time to get to know each other and understand their different cultural beliefs. But this show doesn't provide that kind of time. So it was never going to work. I can't say that JP is being thrown under the bus any more than other Bachelors who came before him. But he has done some of the damage all by himself.

I think the WTA is going to be quite interesting. If some of the other women felt the same way as Andi, then we will know that there were valid reasons as to why Andi took herself out.

This is very well stated Nativenewyorker.  There was a book written 20 some years ago "Men are from Mars; Women are from Venus" that talks about the way men and women communicate differently, thus probably why JP thought the date went well and Andi didn't.  Add to this that JP comes from a culture where men's role in a relationship differs from what is expected in the US and also that there is a language barrier and quite possibly an intelligence or at least an educational unbalance.  Heck, I even have trouble "getting" the male thing with my American born, English speaking husband.  They had 8 hours to sort through major differences and it obviously didn't happen  Bravo for Andi for calling it out and bravo for JP for letting her go somewhat gracefully.  The rest of the nonsense in the Andi/JP confrontation - totally producer induced is my opinion!

Nativenewyorker wrote:I believe that feelings aren't right or wrong, they just are. Andi felt disrespected by JP in the fantasy suite. I can understand her not liking hearing JP talk about his overnight date with Clare. I can also understand her not liking him tell her that she barely made it to the F3. Why would anyone want to hear that? There is honesty and then there is a kind of honesty that is really a kind of cruelty and callousness. It's not necessary for anyone to say exactly what is on their mind every single hour of the day. Sometimes it's best to hold back. It's all about being respectful of others and sensitive to their feelings. JP saying that this is who he is and he's just being honest, is a bit disingenuous. I have known people who trumpeted their so-called honesty, but it was really their way of rationalizing their own hostility and anger. That's why I am always a bit skeptical when anyone starts going on and on about just being honest.

I think that Andi made her decision and all that was left was to tell JP. Where I think she got lost is when she let his responses get to her. It really didn't matter at that point what he said. She had the realization that she didn't have real feelings for him and he didn't have any for her. She was true to herself in bowing out at that point. It might have been the lawyer in her that wouldn't allow her to just let it go at some point. She let JP's refrain of "it's okay" get to her all over again. She got angry and emotional. But the reason she was leaving is because JP didn't seem interested in her, didn't want to know anything about her, said things that were offensive and just wasn't into it. So why should she think he would behave any differently when she confronted him?

As for JP himself, I don't believe that he came into this wanting to find a wife and mother for his child. if he did, then he would have let Sharleen go. She was not going to settle down with him. I have no problem with him being the Bachelor for whatever reason, but I do think he bears some responsibility for what has happened. There is a huge cultural divide between JP and these women. That has been a big part of the problem. If this was in the real world, then they would have time to get to know each other and understand their different cultural beliefs. But this show doesn't provide that kind of time. So it was never going to work. I can't say that JP is being thrown under the bus any more than other Bachelors who came before him. But he has done some of the damage all by himself.

I think the WTA is going to be quite interesting. If some of the other women felt the same way as Andi, then we will know that there were valid reasons as to why Andi took herself out.

In other word you think Andi is right and Juan Pablo is wrong.