Re: The Bachelor: Women Tell All - 3/04 - Discussion Thread

[Guest]

ITA. Nut hugging Shay! Hysterical. I know nothing about her can you say more?

Catherine is hip and current, Sean is neither. Catherine's family had doubts about her wanting to settle down and I believe they were right on the money. I see her with a more counter culture guy when she is ready. The difference between Seattle and Dallas is extreme. I still have no clue what Sean is all about.

Sorry, I don't know much about her besides her blog and what the blogosphere has said about her. Seems like she likes radio (hearing her voice) and tv (watching herself on it). I hope Cat/Sean work out but I just don't see it happening, hope i'm wrong!

[albean99]

Dallas isn't so bad. I live here and although not hip am a left leaning Dem in a right leaning state. A lot of my friends are very conservative but it doesn't matter because we don't talk politics. Our oldest son is more like Catherine and he does just fine here.

I don't put much stock in Sean saying he can't decide until the very end. Pretty much all the leads say the same thing during the season but change their tune afterwards and that's even the ones we know were gaga over their f1.

[Longhornfan]

I was a counselor for many years. It is common for a man to 'handle' a woman/spouse. Men are not as adept at speaking their 'truth,' as women. I am using corny verbal shorthand here to get my point across in less than 20 paragraphs! They do this to avoid a reaction that would make them uncomfortable. And what happens? They get exactly what they are aiming to avoid. It never works.

Ashlee's reaction was appropriate for the situation and I applaud her for not crumbling in Seans arms in tears. She had every right to be angry. Had I not been spoiled I would have chosen her as F1. My 4 unspoiled friends had her in this position until this week.

Under the guise of not hurting someone, they tell them what they want to hear to avoid drama. This is to make YOU comfortable not the other person 100% of the time.

Sean, well intended, did lead Ashlee and Desiree on, big time. I do think he was confused until the end because it is a very short time as we have talked about endlessly in each season. I understand that. He proposed to the woman he wanted to date.

I watched his eye contact with each of F4 and if I were on the other side of that gaze I would know I was the one.

Good post!! I had not thought about the eye contact before, but you are so right. Sean looked all the women in the eyes when he said all those loving things to them. It would have been very hard NOT to believe those things Sean was saying to each of them. Normally, when someone looks you in the eye, that is a sign that they are being truthful. This, after all, was someone who never gave off the vibe of being a player. So, I totally understood how AshLee felt that she had been blindsided.

[jcrbil]

I must say, as I reflect back on the season and then read some of the more current discussion my comment becomes, "damned if you do, damned if you don't".

Sean was praised, early, for having real conversations with the women, to generally being interested in them, for remembering little things about them- lots of them- not just things about the few who interested him night one. Apparently, that left him open to developing serious relationships with more than just the few over time, and caused him to see some of the few from night one in a different light as time went on.... and to blindside one of the early frontrunners late and now to be called by some on this site "wishy washy". To me, someone who's wishy washy is someone who doesn't care- which I believe is farthest from the truth with Sean.

Until the end, I think he was in each moment with each of the women- yes, many have strong reactions to being sent home- many more than usual, actually, because for a change, the bachelor was really involved in this (ahem) "journey".

Criticize, if you will. But if you're criticizing him for exactly the same qualities as you praised at first, examine your own thoughts, please.

[Guest]

I must say, as I reflect back on the season and then read some of the more current discussion my comment becomes, "damned if you do, damned if you don't".

Sean was praised, early, for having real conversations with the women, to generally being interested in them, for remembering little things about them- lots of them- not just things about the few who interested him night one. Apparently, that left him open to developing serious relationships with more than just the few over time, and caused him to see some of the few from night one in a different light as time went on.... and to blindside one of the early frontrunners late and now to be called by some on this site "wishy washy". To me, someone who's wishy washy is someone who doesn't care- which I believe is farthest from the truth with Sean.

Until the end, I think he was in each moment with each of the women- yes, many have strong reactions to being sent home- many more than usual, actually, because for a change, the bachelor was really involved in this (ahem) "journey".

Criticize, if you will. But if you're criticizing him for exactly the same qualities as you praised at first, examine your own thoughts, please.

[pbmax]

This is just my 2¢ on the subject, I know, not worth much. This is the 17th season of the bachelor, running long enough for everyone to know the ends and outs of this show including the contestants that come on to vie for the lead. Sean is playing his role as the bachelor, no matter how serious he is, he signed a contract. He's not confused, he knows who he want, all that other stuff is for the viewers sake. How old do you have to be to know when someone is into you, I think at least 21. The signs are there. They were definitely there for Ashlee, she was the least one Sean seem interested in. He was so distant with her. He was feeling her pain, her the things she's been through but he wasn't feeling no love with her. The only time he could play his role and mean it was with Catherine.

[NCGalBecca]

I get you. It seems like he really wasn't sure and we shouldn't put too much stock on this engagement. Sean needed to have stopped his elimination process when he fell in love. Falling in love with two women doesn't resonate well with me. Im sure as it is with others. Either I believe his sincerity all the way or that he was acting to finish the show. Idk I am so confused, I seem to go through these cycles this season. Excuse me while I go to the bathroom now and cry.

No! I hope my jaded comments don't make you feel bad. I used to be invested in this show but stopped giving a rat's a.ss after Ali/Roberto's season...until yesterday, when I started watching youtube interviews of Sean, ha!

I'm going to be snarky, so don't read the rest of this if you really like Sean. Personally, I don't think Cat/Sean have a chance in hell even though I love them together. Their lives are too different. She's cool, progressive (yes, you can be religious, conservative in how you live your life, and have progressive or liberal views of the world. Gasp!), smart, and cultured. I can't picture her living that Dallas lifestyle, hanging out with his "crew" and wannabe famous, nut hugging sister Shay. He's intrigued by her bc he's never dated anyone like her (he said this) but that's not long lasting. He was on the verge of sending her home over Des after HTD's, c'mon now. Really?! How can you feel confident in that? I hope he loves her a lot, like more than she loves him because that's the only way it's going to work.

I have the snowball's chance sentiment as well and think that I would still have it if Lindsay was the one, too. Perhaps, if he had opted to date and had not gotten engaged or became engaged on the ATFR, I would have more faith. But, the engagement is the deal breaker for me actually. It says he's just playing the part and fulfilling his role instead of using common sense and hitting the pause button.

No one torn between two girls and telling them both that he loves them in the same one week period should be getting engaged to anyone - TV show or not. Especially, after basically, stating week after week that the frontrunner shifted and the playing field was even until the very last moment. If doubters exist (beyond the horrible success rate), it's because Sean himself laid the foundation with his actions and words post filming.

Also, the vibe coming from production isn't exactly a ringing endorsement either. Yes, they have the next show to promote and produce but when they have someone that's been a ratings producer for them such as Sean, it's very odd that they get treated the way that they have in the edit and the press by one of their own (CH).

[dw_a_mom]

I thought the contestants the lead had the strongest feelings for got 2nd dates.

That's possibly been true but I think it may depend on how The Bachelor wants to run his show. Some bachelors might request (and be given) multiple 1-1 dates because they like a particular woman and another might request multiple dates because they have questions and want more time with certain women to get them answered.

It's a bit unusual that this season Sean had only one 1-1 date with both of his final two women which suggests that he might have had the most confidence in / least doubts about those two for some time and used second 1-1 dates to make sure he didn't make a mistake in letting someone else go earlier.

I completely get what you're saying and I thought that was the case but it just doesn't make sense. Time is valuable during this process, why would you want to keep spending time with people you're unsure about? If the dates can last up to 12 hours, wouldn't you want to spend as much time as possible with the ones you like/are falling for VS the ones you're unsure about?

It almost felt like he liked ALL the women and eliminated them based on when he didn't like them anymore. So by process of elimination, obviously there would only be two people left. But it wasn't like he pursued them (they weren't "the ones"), but rather, they were just the last two left. Does this make sense?

Maybe I should have just kept watching from a distance. I started looking up Sean interview clips and it made me a little sad about how open he was about falling in love with multiple women, up until, basically the end of the show. If you were Catherine, how would you feel about that?! Maybe the bachelors are just terrible decision makers when it comes to love; they push it to the very end. The bachelorettes on the other hand, at least from my memory, knew who their "final one" was before the meet the parents/final date.

What happened to all the old members? I only recognize albeen, Alanna, Love_me and Sanlee.

I get you. It seems like he really wasn't sure and we shouldn't put too much stock on this engagement. Sean needed to have stopped his elimination process when he fell in love. Falling in love with two women doesn't resonate well with me. Im sure as it is with others. Either I believe his sincerity all the way or that he was acting to finish the show. Idk I am so confused, I seem to go through these cycles this season. Excuse me while I go to the bathroom now and cry.

I think that Sean may prove to have been a classic example of "we met on the show, fell in love after." Or never really fell in love at all ... I'm not sure he really knew at the time of the FRC. I think when he says he fell in love with multiple women, you have to translate that into "I was attracted to" multiple women. I think he is a guy who needs some time to figure out how he feels about someone. So maybe he started with some of his strongest attractions and/or women he thought by type and background he ought to like, and then tried to evaluate each one, one at a time. Sometimes a guy doesn't really know what he needs and wants until he gets to it, and I think that is normal. Because Catherine is so different from him, he probably was downplaying his connection to her in his own mind for a while, as he got to know the other women who appeared to fit his list better, and had a chance to compare how each made him feel on multiple levels. The way he lights up around her seems to be very real, but we all know that attraction is not enough: you've got to mesh on thousands of small details.

More than anyone, I think both Sean and Catherine took a huge leap of faith with the proposal and engagement. Without the show, no way would they have taken that step. Without the show, they would have known there was lust and that they felt "something," but they wouldn't have been ready to put a name on it. The show forced a label that they might not otherwise have been ready to add, even if in the back of their minds they were thinking it was meant to be.

They really are going to need to spend some real world time to know if they can work. It seems to me that they are cute together, and bring something unexpected to each other, but who knows if that means they are meant to be. Falling in love the way you and I think of the term doesn't happen on the show; it has to wait until after.

I actually like that Sean seems to have stayed open to the possibilities with women he might have been tempted to eliminate earlier for some assumed reason. It seems more real life to me.

[dw_a_mom]

I must say, as I reflect back on the season and then read some of the more current discussion my comment becomes, "damned if you do, damned if you don't".

Sean was praised, early, for having real conversations with the women, to generally being interested in them, for remembering little things about them- lots of them- not just things about the few who interested him night one. Apparently, that left him open to developing serious relationships with more than just the few over time, and caused him to see some of the few from night one in a different light as time went on.... and to blindside one of the early frontrunners late and now to be called by some on this site "wishy washy". To me, someone who's wishy washy is someone who doesn't care- which I believe is farthest from the truth with Sean.

Until the end, I think he was in each moment with each of the women- yes, many have strong reactions to being sent home- many more than usual, actually, because for a change, the bachelor was really involved in this (ahem) "journey".

Criticize, if you will. But if you're criticizing him for exactly the same qualities as you praised at first, examine your own thoughts, please.

I am one who got pretty worried about the women early on, seeing how sincere and positive he appeared to be with each one. Positive trait in the real world, dating one on one, but devastating in this environment.

He is a good guy by all appearances, but he does try too hard to avoid drama, and he is going to have to learn that sometimes more direct and blunt is better. There is some middle ground he's still got to find.

Hey, the guy isn't even 30 yet. None of that changes that he is probably a good and well intentioned guy. I just think he has some things to learn, and watching himself on TV he probably will learn them.

[pbmax]

Right! Love me, Des will be the next lead, that was a great preformance that she and her brother put on, come the dude smiling at the same time. Even Stevie Wonder saw that one. I think she will be the best one from this season.

Come on people stop believing everything that come out of the lead's mouth. TPTB definitely changed it up this season big time Don't you know that they know we look for patterns.

[dw_a_mom]

So, just saw a story about WTA on Insider and it showed AshLee asking Sean, " Why did you tell me that you had no feelings for the other girls?". He denied it.

Unfortunately I think AshLee misinterpreted a LOT of what Sean did or said as confirmation that she was the one.

Okay, I'm going into defend Sean mode because I do believe he has a lot of integrity.... but before I do please realize that I believe no one is perfect- which is why we need grace.

So, do I think AshLee believes Sean told her he had no feelings for anyone else? Yes, I believe that she believes that. Do I think that Sean, himself, told her that? No. I do think she heard that, but more likely from her handler, someone in production- we know they are wont to place such ideas in the minds of the participants and AshLee, I think, was particularly vulnerable to those thoughts. I do believe that Sean told AshLee that he had strong feelings toward her- which I believe to be true. He told her, as he told others, that he could see being married to her. I don't think any of these women would have been in Thailand if he could not picture that. Does that mean he would be married to any of them? Not necessarily- and obviously there would only be one at the end. If AshLee had not been blinded by her own feelings she may have, as all the other girls did, realize that Sean was paying attention to and seemed to have feelings for other women. I am certain that none could plumb the depths of those feelings- but then Sean hadn't figured it out yet, either.

It was clear to me, by what AshLee said in the ITM immediately following her HTD that she knew that Sean would be committed at such a time as when he said, "I love you" which to him meant (s) the same as "I want to spend my life with you, marry you". She said that at that point their life together would go forward. Clearly, she had no doubts it was her. Did her parents take Sean saying that he had no intent to break AshLee's heart to be that she would be the chosen one (we weren't there and only have the edited tape as evidence- but given her dad's tweet that may be the case) and did they then tell her that? Did she hold on to the words that AshLee was like no one else (true) as meaning she was the one? We weren't present, we will never see or hear all the tape, but if you had "given" yourself to someone who could only be non-specific in his declarations to you, you might come to some conclusions. (I know that I can have meaningful conversations with my husband of 32 years and he might refer, later, to something we spoke about and I wonder if we were in the same room at the time because you'd think we had just played the kids' game "telephone" and he was 30 or so people removed from me- just sayin').

Anyway, never a good idea to publicly challenge anyone's integrity. It shows absolute disrespect which maybe what AshLee believes Sean showed her, so she is returning the favor. But I think instead, that there was a major miscommunication which in the long run may have become the norm for their relationship- and become toxic.

I'd have to rewatch to be sure, but I seem to recall Sean saying things along the lines of "no one makes me feel like you do" or "what we have is unique" with various women, and my reaction each time was "oh no!" They walk such a fine line in the show, and I think Sean, who probably felt sincere in the moment, went too far. It happens. Who can forget Meredith saying "I'd be 'honored' to receive a ring" from you to her F2? The contestants are trying to read between the lines with everything the lead says, and they can take statements like these as disguised declarations that they are the F1.

I don't take any of that stuff as a blotch on the lead's character; it is the show that does it, and I feel guilty for watching ... but I still watch.

[Guest]

I really think it was Catherine from the get go.


He knows he will keep her, date or no date. But first he needs to do a lot of duty dating to eliminate the women he's not into.
His dates with Catherine were all bonding dates, than testing the women/fear factor dates he had with a lot of them.

But somewhere along the way god/angels in heaven/the bible/Shay/his mom reminded him that Catherine and him do not play
on the same religious team and she has career aspirations (yaikks). Plus the production decided that Desiree is the right choice for him.. so he keeps on confusing himself.
Until the last moment.

His unrealisitc idealism about love plus religious conviction and advice from his sister (who has her own agenda) clouded his heart's decision
and he waffled and nearly got cold feet. Clearly he doesnt know the difference between what god wants for him and what he thinks god wants from him as interpreted by people who have selfish agenda or just want to baby him and postpone helping him grow as a MAN.

Catherine is his perfect match. I shake my head everytime he has to repeat his production fed over rehearsed lines that he was confused among multiple women. No you weren't, dumb boy you are unsure about how you will receive this gift given the limited emotional tool and experiences you have.
Too sheltered and too idealistic, of course he will be confused.
Sean is scared shitless that he has to get out from his comfort zone to meet someone half way in pursuit of a real relationship.

True love means you are not without fear but you are ready to be fearless. I'm afraid, Sean wants a smooth road without tests and a relationship where he doesn't need to be uncomfortable or give unrelenting and unwavering trust to someone. He wants it laid out on a silver platter amidst a beautiful banquet of approval from family, friends, public and religious beliefs. This beefy man needs to have the balls of iron to fight for a woman who seems ready to risk the world for him. You cannot expect to have what you cannot give. He needs to soul search to carry this relationship. But DWTS, proved to be a good distraction to postpone real work and really invest in this "relationship".

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