Hannah Brown - Bachelorette 15 - Discussion #2

Jolena wrote:

mercieme wrote:True empathy crosses both ways. I for one am just tired of the narrative on SM being about just what Hannah is going through and not including those she has hurt. It’s just too reminiscent of how our society tends to give certain demographics a pass over others so it does not surprise me in the least bit that Hannah’s fans are doing this. The bigger thing that has come out of this for me is the exposure of the many racists that exist in BN fandom, but I am a firm believer that people reap what they sow even if they are doing so hiding behind their computer screens.

I supported Hannah during DWTS but was always cognizant that she needs a lot of growth in handling criticism. Simone Biles was much younger than Hannah when she did DWTS and handled Carrie Ann tearing into her much better. HB is not a child & IMO should not be infantilized by her fans her & neither should folks be posting negativity directly on her SM page. But the vitriol on the SM pages from Hannah’s fans on the SM pages of those that have spoken up are far more than Hannah is getting, this is a fact. So yeah I have way more empathy for others in this situation.

There are celebrities like Lana del ray and Alison Roman that have also gotten themselves involved in racially sensitive situations this past week and being called out for their actions. They are both more popular than Hannah and being held accountable by their fans & the media and both have issued better apologies than HB. Maybe Hannah can borrow a page from the one person she fans a lot, Taylor Swift who said that if her fans are racist then she does not want them as fans. As far as I am concerned though, any apology from HB is too late and she should just lay low in Alabama and when she comes back hopefully she uses her SM platform for the greater good of society at large....all jmho.

In my opinion it's never to late to say your sorry. She did immediately express that she was sorry the minute she said it on the live ( I was actually watching it) and the following day issued a statement owning it, taking full responsibility for her actions and apologizing and im sure she will speak on it further but to say she ignored it completely is not the truth. jmo

Re the bold, no part of my post said that. Then in terms of facts, Hannah deflected on her IG live and first blamed her brother Patrick so that’s not apologizing right away IMO. But ok if you choose to belive she apologized right away during the IG live though, not trying to change anyone’s opinion here...TYIA.

Let's all not forget the IG live... "I said that? Oh maybe I did. Maybe it was Patrick." All said while smirking/smiling. Her friend blaming Brooke proves to me that her friends coddle her.

Let's just talk about the N word being used in songs. Yes, it's used in a lot of rap songs. We all know this. And a lot of people who sing it in songs are NOT racist. They may genuinely believe that it's okay to sing it because it's a lyric. And you know what, that's where personal growth and education comes in. It's never too late to educate ourselves on the word and why it's used in songs. It's a word that has been used forever and still to this day to oppress and dehumanize black people. It's important to acknowledge that black people have TAKEN back the power of the word. And it's their right to. I've seen so many people online saying that if it's such a terrible word why are black people still using it in songs etc. Well I would say if you aren't black that's not an issue for you to wonder why.

Whether Hannah's ego wanted to accept Rachel's offer or not, which she clearly didn't, it was incredibly stupid and egotistical of Hannah to refuse. This isn't even about the face video apology at that point, she refused to get educated by a BLACK woman living in america about the history of the word and why black people have taken back power of it and why it's still used- but not for non black people to use.

Hannah in the least should've posted a video, text, that she has learned WHY that word is still used in songs today and why it shouldn't be sung by people like her. Her willingness to learn about the word whether it be by Rachel or by google would show personal growth. The only thing she said was essentially "Sorry. I know I shouldn't have used the word and how wrong it was."

Hannah, WHY was it wrong? How was it wrong? The reason why she should post this is also because a lot of her fanbase are very young and impressionable. They look up to Hannah, and she could've taught a lot of people who truly don't know about why the word is still used today and why it's wrong for her to use it. Someone who admits that ^ to me is a strong person who shows personal growth. Why? Because I'd say the biggest demon we all have is ourself and our ego. It's not easy to swallow your ego. It's one thing to admit you're wrong, but another to truly want to learn why it's wrong and grow from that.

Also, no, Hannah doesn't control what her fans do or say to other contestants. However, when black contestants are being harrassed for no reason simply because they like Hannah, this is wrong. It's another thing to call out your own fanbase for being wrong, and it would show me maturity if Hannah did. However she hasn't, and it's been a week since the incident. Nothing coming forward from her if it even does will be sincere IMO. The fact that Hannah can't even tell her own fanbase to stop sending hate and harrassing messages to POC contestants tells me way more about her than anything.

Sorry this is such a long post, but these are extremely important discussions to have. I also don't think Hannah has a PR team/dropped from her old team. I don't know any PR team who would think continuing to ignore this would be a good idea..

Just to add a last thing, I've been seeing people using Hannah's mental health and essentially victimizing her. This was also discussed on reddit earlier. This is WRONG. Saying that Hannah may be too depressed/scared etc to say something is not an excuse for her not issuing an actual apology. I have no doubt in my mind that she's suffering from this- this is embarrassing and would be for anyone.

But where are the posts about how racism has affected the black contestants mental health? They are the ones receiving racism and threatening messages. Does their mental health not matter? Should they just suck it up because poor Hannah must be really scared and anxious right now? I simply don't get it.

I know I wrote a whole novel, but just writing down the things about this that have been bothering me.

^^^
Excellent Post !

@wishesfireworks
I started wanting to bold almost everything...so here is what I think: THANKS!

@wishesfireworks your post is just outstanding.  

Doggoneit wrote:Stepping back out.  No one outside of the primary players deserves any backlash.  Still believe that there is a bigger plan in motion that will in some way be positive.  Can we not hope for that?????? Please believe that good can come from this.

good can come from this if hannah does her part. unfortunately, it doesn’t automatically follow that good will come out of a bad situation. we have to cooperate with any bigger plan. i certainly don’t wish any hate on anyone in all of this, but i do wish hannah would step up and apologize further and allow this to be a teachable moment.

Doggoneit wrote:I believe Hannah has a PR team. I also believe that she was prevented from going live with Rachel.

hannah is an adult and she gets to take responsibility for her decisions. PR reps can advise her as to how to handle a situation but they can’t prevent her from going live with rachel or anyone else.

we have to be careful not to treat hannah like a fragile child here. she may have mental health struggles but so do many other people. it may make it a bit more difficult to step up and do the right thing, but it doesn’t ever give us a pass.

when hannah does finally return to social media she needs to be careful not to put the focus on herself and how she’s struggled with the backlash and her feelings. she needs to not make it about her, but rather to put the focus on her behavior and how that has affected the black community. to focus on herself rather than those she has hurt when she comes back would not be a good way to show love to others.

there is much for all of us to learn from these conversations. jmo

I'm not a fan of demeaning language no matter how it is directed. There has also been a trend of calling women b*****s* and h**s and other ugly words, and my feeling is that has not been called out sufficiently when it happens on the show, or in the context of the show (I remember Demi doing it, and at least one other cast member doing it as well.) IMO it all needs to stop. People are trying to be cool, but there is nothing cool about it. "Taking back ownership of the word" makes zero sense to me. For instance, I seriously doubt Rachel has ever used that word, because she projects a classy image, and that is not a classy word.

To me when you use language like that, it demeans not only the other person, but also yourself and everyone else within hearing distance. Who wants to live like that? There is no dignity in it.

Amethyst wrote:I'm not a fan of demeaning language no matter how it is directed. There has also been a trend of calling women b*****s* and h**s and other ugly words, and my feeling is that has not been called out sufficiently when it happens on the show, or in the context of the show (I remember Demi doing it, and at least one other cast member doing it as well.) IMO it all needs to stop. People are trying to be cool, but there is nothing cool about it. "Taking back ownership of the word" makes zero sense to me. For instance, I seriously doubt Rachel has ever used that word, because she projects a classy image, and that is not a classy word.

To me when you use language like that, it demeans not only the other person, but also yourself and everyone else within hearing distance. Who wants to live like that? There is no dignity in it.

@Amethyst
Excellent, thoughtful post.

I’ve been pondering this blow up since reading about it.  Hannah is not responsible for the many many years of horrible hurt that humans have inflicted on each other. Is Hannah a bit spoiled or a bit full of herself, probably.  However, I have never heard her tear another person down, or judge another person.  Was she being flippant and not taking it seriously when she was called out on live for singing along and using that word? Yes.  Is it habit for her to jokingly blame things on her brother absolutely. She immediately acknowledged that oh no not a word she wants to say.  Her written apology was to the point and no excuses. I also   understand why she did not go live with Rachel L.  Rachel is very bright, but she in the past is critical and I do not believe made Hannah feel safe to talk with.  Also why does Rachel get to choose how Hannah processes this. Hannah singing that word hurt Rachel but Rachel did a lot of damage to Hannah.  Also Hannah I noticed was one of the few people  to post in support of justice for horrible killing of the young man in Georgia. You have seen Hannah be friends with multiple races.  Renouncing any kind of persecution of others is right but harsh judgement and possibly harming a person and her career is not right.  Hannah Brown does not need to be the sacrificial lamb for hundreds of years of the horrors of racism.  I am impressed with both Matt James and Mike.  She should do a sit down with one of them.

River57 wrote:I’ve been pondering this blow up since reading about it.  Hannah is not responsible for the many many years of horrible hurt that humans have inflicted on each other. Is Hannah a bit spoiled or a bit full of herself, probably.  However, I have never heard her tear another person down, or judge another person.  Was she being flippant and not taking it seriously when she was called out on live for singing along and using that word? Yes.  Is it habit for her to jokingly blame things on her brother absolutely. She immediately acknowledged that oh no not a word she wants to say.  Her written apology was to the point and no excuses. I also   understand why she did not go live with Rachel L.  Rachel is very bright, but she in the past is critical and I do not believe made Hannah feel safe to talk with.  Also why does Rachel get to choose how Hannah processes this. Hannah singing that word hurt Rachel but Rachel did a lot of damage to Hannah.  Also Hannah I noticed was one of the few people  to post in support of justice for horrible killing of the young man in Georgia. You have seen Hannah be friends with multiple races.  Renouncing any kind of persecution of others is right but harsh judgement and possibly harming a person and her career is not right.  Hannah Brown does not need to be the sacrificial lamb for hundreds of years of the horrors of racism.  I am impressed with both Matt James and Mike.  She should do a sit down with one of them.

well written

I applaud all of the great conversations going on and the opportunity that the dialogue has provided for me to education myself in areas that I had thought I was already enlightened. It's definitely broadened my view in regards to racism. Even hearing Biden's "you ain't black" statement made me think deeper of how white people still want to tell black people what it means to be black. Hindsight is always easier and maybe HB regrets not taking up Rachel on her offer. I would actually like to see HB put together a panel including CH, LZ, Rachel, and others that want to use this as an opportunity to educate and influence behavior and for her to really apologize. This issue is bigger than HB so she should get out of her own head space and do some good. IMO

@Minney
The people you named for your panel have no credibility in that discussion space, period.  The WORST thing that could happen for Hannah is more mismanagement of this issue. CH and LZ? Why, what, how on earth??
All IMO.

River57 wrote:I’ve been pondering this blow up since reading about it.  Hannah is not responsible for the many many years of horrible hurt that humans have inflicted on each other. Is Hannah a bit spoiled or a bit full of herself, probably.  However, I have never heard her tear another person down, or judge another person.  Was she being flippant and not taking it seriously when she was called out on live for singing along and using that word? Yes.  Is it habit for her to jokingly blame things on her brother absolutely. She immediately acknowledged that oh no not a word she wants to say.  Her written apology was to the point and no excuses. I also   understand why she did not go live with Rachel L.  Rachel is very bright, but she in the past is critical and I do not believe made Hannah feel safe to talk with.  Also why does Rachel get to choose how Hannah processes this. Hannah singing that word hurt Rachel but Rachel did a lot of damage to Hannah.  Also Hannah I noticed was one of the few people  to post in support of justice for horrible killing of the young man in Georgia. You have seen Hannah be friends with multiple races.  Renouncing any kind of persecution of others is right but harsh judgement and possibly harming a person and her career is not right.  Hannah Brown does not need to be the sacrificial lamb for hundreds of years of the horrors of racism.  I am impressed with both Matt James and Mike.  She should do a sit down with one of them.

I can understand why Hannah didn't talk to Rachel as well.

I remember when Rachel was at the Finale discussing SM hate and the impact that it has on someone. Some of the women that weren't even on Peter's season that long were talking about how awful it was. While, yes, Hannah said something that people were hurt by, but it wasn't said to directly hurt anyone, it was a mistake. I can only imagine the thousands of comments Hannah is getting right now, and the overwhelming magnitude of it. She apologized once, and some people want more from her and want that from her now. Hannah has been open about her depression and anxiety issues and maybe this has been so overwhelming that she physically/mentally can not do it right now. As Tyler said, "you can either lift someone up or you can tear them down" I have no doubt that Hannah will come out and address the issue more, but the fact that she hasn't yet, along with Tyler's comments, makes me think she is in a very bad place right now.