Hannah Brown - Bachelorette 15 - Discussion #2

alwayscooking wrote:

mercieme wrote:

alwayscooking wrote:I hope everyone that is calling Hannah out on this has never listened/downloaded music with this type of language in it, by doing so they are equally as guilty, IMO.  By listening/downloading, whatever,  you are accepting it, and therefore perpetuating it.

But why is Hannah as a self professed Christian listening to songs with offensive lyrics, can that be addressed instead of blaming the artist who did not force anyone to download his music?  Please let’s not make this about the song and hold people responsible for their actions. Others in the franchise get called out for less. Also this is the second time for Hannah on a matter like this. Same excuses made for her that she was just repeating a joke about Asians and beauty salons that Asians themselves make. Hannah has a good heart but she is not above being called out for a misstep, she just needs to show going forward that she can learn and do better but not if her stans continue to validate her missteps by making her feel she is untouchable & also attacking folks that provide constructive feedback on SM platforms.......all jmho.

I have no idea what Hannah has said in the past, my point was simply on this issue.  It's okay for the musician to use this word in the song, but not okay for someone to sing that song?   It's acceptable for some to say certain words but others can't?    Hannah is being called a racist for repeating the lyrics of this song, I guess we should call the musician one as well.

I am of the firm belief that we are all equal.  As I said in my first post, I have never nor will never use that word and I don't understand why it's acceptable in music.  Hannah was being called out because she's white, and she can't use that word, even if the words aren't hers, but lyrics of a song.    If certain words are so offensive then they shouldn't be used by anyone, in music or whatever.  If it's unacceptable for some it should be unacceptable for all.  

IMO this is an opportunity for folks that don’t know the history to get educated on why Hannah should not have used the word and as @umngirl said upthread, recommend you listen to Rachel’s live for that education. And I am sorry ongoing racial issues in America has proven that we are not all equal in as much as I believe that God created us equally. I actually don’t think Hannah will get much backlash from this, she is beloved as BN’s golden girl IMO based on the defense I read by her stans all over SM but I seriously hope she learns her lesson & uses her platform better going forward.....jmho.

Wow. I've been reading comments online since yesterday and it's just mind-blowing, NOT. I always rejected the stans' mentality ("if you aren't with me, you are against me"), this "black and white" view on different topics, where people dismiss so many other options, just because it's CONVENIENT to not address them and actually change or shift out of own personal comfort zone. This msg is a call-out to those stans that don't see the problem in their excuses and their defences, even when they are not personally attacked (or maybe they feel touched by the critics too, IDK) in order to defend their favourite, the Favorite who actually has HER own voice and PLATFORM and she knows how to use it when it's convenient to her.

That said, I haven't changed my opinion of Hannah, but I am expecting more of her than that IG story.
1) because she was wrong ( I believe in that moment she trully wasn't aware what she did and that's why she brushed everything off quickly, with non-apology. I believe, and yes this is only my assumption, that she actually realized after the live what she really said and has been in her head since ... but she needs to suck it up and grow up now. It sucks to be a grown-up, but it's time to own up.)
2) She should never sing that word, not in her head, not voicing it out loud ... just like she doesn't like other words to be used in the songs that she refuses to listen. It's the same DISGRACEFUL language, with the difference who sings it ... so that WHITE PRIVILEGE can experience that there are certain words that they cannot use, while POC can. It's the privilege of those generations being oppressed.
3) Hannah is very open on her Social Media. That requires and brings certain RESPONSIBILITY. She and only her can be accountable for the message she is putting "on air" on her OWN platform.
4) She has a chance to speak out and not just do better, but change someone's life by being a better member of a very diverse society. She seems to want that role, calls it her calling ... so here's the great opportunity. It ain't easy ... but changes never are.
5) I hope that has been a great lesson for her regarding social media exposure and an eye-opening moment regarding her following. Both need some reexamination and revision.

alwayscooking wrote:

mercieme wrote:

alwayscooking wrote:I hope everyone that is calling Hannah out on this has never listened/downloaded music with this type of language in it, by doing so they are equally as guilty, IMO.  By listening/downloading, whatever,  you are accepting it, and therefore perpetuating it.

But why is Hannah as a self professed Christian listening to songs with offensive lyrics, can that be addressed instead of blaming the artist who did not force anyone to download his music?  Please let’s not make this about the song and hold people responsible for their actions. Others in the franchise get called out for less. Also this is the second time for Hannah on a matter like this. Same excuses made for her that she was just repeating a joke about Asians and beauty salons that Asians themselves make. Hannah has a good heart but she is not above being called out for a misstep, she just needs to show going forward that she can learn and do better but not if her stans continue to validate her missteps by making her feel she is untouchable & also attacking folks that provide constructive feedback on SM platforms.......all jmho.

I have no idea what Hannah has said in the past, my point was simply on this issue.  It's okay for the musician to use this word in the song, but not okay for someone to sing that song?   It's acceptable for some to say certain words but others can't?    Hannah is being called a racist for repeating the lyrics of this song, I guess we should call the musician one as well.

I am of the firm belief that we are all equal.  As I said in my first post, I have never nor will never use that word and I don't understand why it's acceptable in music.  Hannah was being called out because she's white, and she can't use that word, even if the words aren't hers, but lyrics of a song.    If certain words are so offensive then they shouldn't be used by anyone, in music or whatever.  If it's unacceptable for some it should be unacceptable for all.  

@alwayscooking
I don’t know if your questions are questions or, rhetorical or what but, you asked and I will answer - 
NO, NO, NO it is not ok to repeat racial slurs used in songs on a public SM forum in the same way that it is not ok to send pornography to your mom or, repeat blasphemous phrases to Christians or use the F word when speaking to a toddler or discuss sex toys with a grade schooler. 

In the name of art and free expression there is every manner of photograph and drawing and unacceptable word and sculpture and bad reference and bad name and video and movie and book that a filthy mind can contrive but there will always be a level of regard and respect restricting their use with people you should know full well would be offended.  To subject your new neighbors who just came to dinner at your home to your collection of violent/horror films or sexually graphic books or words or images  after coffee is disgusting and stupid and disrespectful EVEN IF it’s commonplace for you. 

There will always be limits and constraints for appropriateness and respect in place to govern the use of everything. 
To pretend none exists and we can repeat a line from a song or a movie or a book because the “artist” used it is disingenuous and classless and fools no one.

I’m mostly over Hannah’s gaffe because she’s unexposed and quite obviously trying to be accepted and to broaden her previously very limited boundaries and experiences but, she deserved what she got for being a coward and not owning her mistake and explaining, then apologizing for it. If she loses some fans as a result, she’ll learn a lesson about being the genuine grown a** woman she likes to pretend to be instead of the petulant child she often is and that lesson has needed repeating a few times already - especially on DWTS. She has more work to do to become worldly and wise. She’s not the only one. 

All IMO.

Hannah was wrong and she owned it. BUT. The call out from Rachel is not just about Hannah's honest mistake of not knowing better (at the time ... although I would have few words more about educating yourself despite not needing to, expecially when you have all the time in the world to learn, read and talk to people, even just online, and you have means that many don't) but about her following.
Hannah made a mistake and acknowledged it (maybe a bit late for some liking, but I don't hold it against her for not doing it sooner).

What Rachel really called out was the behavior of Hannah's fans/stans who seem to not accept that Hannah was wrong, coming up with the excuses and justifications, why singing along and voicing thar word isn't bad at all.
It's one thing to think like that till someone doesn't correct you (like Hannah has been) and educate you on the history of that word. It's something different when you are being told what the word means, where it derives from, how it was used and how it's used today and people still claim that singing along isn't wrong at all. It is. Not accepting the explanation and actually blaming who explains it for pointing that out is also wrong. The fact that people being hurt and disrespected by that word are being told to shut up because Hannah is being hurt by the criticism ... is wrong.
Hannah is hurt, because she's probably embarrassed and ashamed on her own knowing better today. But it is embarrassing that people who support her are lashing out on people who dare to speak out about ONGOING racism in our society, about inequality that continues to exist, about the responsibility that public figures have and Hannah is one.
She has a power and a huge privilege to talk to and be heard by millions. It's the power she was using just few days ago for good. It's the same power she used the same night she carelessly said that word.

It is her responsibility NOW to use her voice again and spread awareness or educate her followers WHY her action was wrong and shouldn't be repeated by anyone who follows her.
Because staying silent while her fans are justifying and repeating her same mistake (spreading ignorance) is not what an influencer of 2.8M followers is about.
That's what Rachel called out for. And mind me, Rachel at the time of Nick's season rubbed me wrong way, so I don't follow her and really don't care what she says or does, but I agree with her on this message. And it's very disappointing reading people attacking Rachel or TC for speaking about VALUES.

Even if she accidentally said it, which I don't believe, this is well worded IMO because at that point she obviously still didn't think she did anything wrong even after Rachel reached out to her, the next day.

Super disappointed to know that Rachel PERSONALLY reached out to Hannah and asked her to use her platform to speak on video about her usage of the n word and educate her followers and Hannah did NOT do so
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Hannah has apologized on her Instagram story for saying the n-word on IG live but has yet to verbally condemn her followers lack of understanding that using the n word in any capacity is offensive
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I’m sorry that Rachel had to speak out but I think the message she conveyed is extremely important
@therachlindsay
@hannahbrown
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I hope Hannah will soon use her platform to educate herself and her followers on her offensive language
14h

https://www.instagram.com/tv/CATkMT6jojU/?utm_source=ig_embed

Like our country, BN is made up of all kinds of people. Out of politeness let’s just call them the “excuse makers” have been out in full force before. I recall seeing them when Garrett (Becca’s guy) was exposed for liking certain comments that demonstrate bias a while ago. 
What Hannah said is ok with them. Lots of things she could have said about other groups would be fine with them too. 
Hannah knows her people better than we do. She’s making low cost, safe choices not, principled ones. That’s in character for her. It’s what makes it such a joke that people think she’s fierce and badas*. She is sooo, NOT. 
All IMO.

@happygolucky
Absolutely agree that there are some that are killing the messenger - in this case Rachel - despite it being her who has provided the history behind what it means to reappropriate. She even gave the solid example of how b*tch has been reappropriated to make the concept relatable to more people.( Another example I can think of is geek.) A solid linguistic and history lesson wrapped up in a brief IG story is IMO a way of showing knowledge of why it is perceivable wrong and why it is culturally insensitive. A teachable opportunity realized.
I get that Hannah stans want to support their queen however some remind me of those parents who argue with their child’s teacher when their child fails a test... saying the teacher is lousy, it was too much information, the material isn’t relevant to adult life... when the cause is probably that their kid didn’t pay attention in class or ask questions when uncertain or study. People learn a lot more slowly when they delay owning their sh*t and JMO had Hannah been open to why Rachel called her and had she used Rachel’s explanation rather than a generic “sorry” then Hannah would have been the bearer of that teachable moment; showed she was willing to put in the effort to do more than react. Instead, Rachel was the fact messenger and sadly a very important moment is being lost by some who apparently feel to chastise Hannah on a cultural matter is to pick on her... because “she said she’s sorry”. As I see it, Rachel and others are simply holding her accountable for a failure to show understanding of the why behind the issue so Rachel in her IG gave Hannah the tools she may not have had (or some Hannah stans may not have had) - in the form of facts - to move forward more knowledgeably. JMO that arming others with knowledge is a form of gifting them what they need to lift themselves up out of the state of not knowing. So now she/they know.

I knew my comments would not be well received, maybe I'm coming across as I approve of Hannah's comments, which I do not.  So I'll just make this point and back out.

I find the N word vile, always have.  I think it's unacceptable for anyone to use no matter what, no matter what race you are.  IMO, I don't think musicians should use it, if you don't want anyone else to use it, don't use it yourself.    The point I was trying to make was bigger than Hannah.  Somewhere there is someone that is also hearing it and singing along thinking its acceptable because "hey, it's in the song".  If we ever want to move forward I think it needs to stop from everyone.

alwayscooking wrote:I knew my comments would not be well received, maybe I'm coming across as I approve of Hannah's comments, which I do not.  So I'll just make this point and back out.

I find the N word vile, always have.  I think it's unacceptable for anyone to use no matter what, no matter what race you are.  IMO, I don't think musicians should use it, if you don't want anyone else to use it, don't use it yourself.    The point I was trying to make was bigger than Hannah.  Somewhere there is someone that is also hearing it and singing along thinking its acceptable because "hey, it's in the song".  If we ever want to move forward I think it needs to stop from everyone.  

@alwayscooking For what it's worth, I agree with you. NO ONE should use that word.

Can someone show me or tell me how Hannah made fun of Asians? TIA

@alwayscooking my comments above weren't about your response. Actually I vehemently agree with you that the world would be much better place if people simply stopped using certain words. Especially because I notice many young generations don't even know the meaning of those words, worse, many don't know the history of own ancestors and some disregard own history of only 10 years ago, that's how bad the memory span is of many. Sadly. When "they say"... History is a great teacher, yet nobody is learning. Everyone is more obsessed with the latest TikTok or selfie than actually learn about the world around them, about the people who don't live in the same reality as us, about the problems people face on the other side of our walls and many don't care about anyone as long it doesn't concern them personally.
It's wise to ask questions and read about it, it's OK to discuss it and present different POVs and see where they differentiate. But it's not OK to excuse the wrong behavior and not speaking about it only enables it. But I do agree that black-pop culture/hiphop community has some responsibility also in regards to the word still being used and misused, because not everything is "art" anymore and self-expression holds also accountability.
So, back to Hannah, she knows how to express herself well when she wants to, but she chooses not to address certain issues, problematic comments and aggressive behavior of people who claim to support her. But what transpires is that she doesn't want to ruffle feathers.
Well, she did this time, so why not actually do it for something good. But it shouldn't even be an issue of "going against" the tide or not ... but rather standing for something you believe in and hold of value. Respect. Love. Equality. Fairness. Honesty. Decency. Openness. Humility. Grace. When they are your values you show it through your actions and words.

@Doats @alwayscooking Count me in too. I'm 55+ years old and worked years in the non-profit world, often serving underserved populations and POC, and I am all about equity. I find this word vile and would never use it and sadly my musical tastes are not cultivated enough to enjoy most of music past the 80's so I'm not familiar with artists use of it either. I don't live with my head in the sand, I'm well traveled and culturally aware but I did not know that singing a song with that word would be wrong if I am not a POC. I've learned a lot these past few days and am happy for that opportunity. I hope those that spoke out did so with the ultimate intentions of bringing awareness and education instead of shame and humiliation. I'm not making excuses for HB and I think Tyler and Matt said it best that she is not racist and give her grace. She's learning. Hopefully there's not a next time but if there is she will know how to handle it better and how to use her platform. Rachel did a good job of explaining it but not everyone in BN is using it as an educational opportunity, some are just jumping in for attention. IMO