Arie Luyendyk Jr - Lauren Burnham - Bachelor 22 - Discussion #2

BKay wrote:I'm curious about Kendall's remark in this lengthy interview she did with Bekah where she said "A lot of people on the show, if not everyone, knew he was going to break-up with Becca before she did. She was blindsided, but everyone else knew."

I don't understand this - her friends knew and didn't tell her? Sorry if this was discussed when the article came out.

http://www.vulture.com/2018/03/bekah-m-kendall-bachelor-conversation.html

They mean he had told the producers and it got around even to the Canadian Bachelor Brad Smith, who told his Girlfriend he heard apparently he's gonna break up with her who apparently knows Caroline and asked Caroline about it before it happened, in the Almost Famous Pod Caroline said she called Becca to see how they were doing and Becca said they were fine so Caroline said she assumed it was a rumor.

BKay wrote:I'm curious about Kendall's remark in this lengthy interview she did with Bekah where she said "A lot of people on the show, if not everyone, knew he was going to break-up with Becca before she did. She was blindsided, but everyone else knew."

I don't understand this - her friends knew and didn't tell her? Sorry if this was discussed when the article came out.

http://www.vulture.com/2018/03/bekah-m-kendall-bachelor-conversation.html

I don't remember if it was talked about but I did read that Caroline had heard from a friend of hers that is dating a guy from the Bachelor Canada franchise that Arie was going to break up with Becca. Caroline tried calling Becca, left a message asking if everything was OK. Becca called back and asked what was going on. Caroline just asked how things were going with Arie. Becca responded with "good".

Would you want to be the friend that told someone they were going to be dumped by their fiance? Caroline didn't go into specific details about their phone call but for all we know, she may have laid the ground work for Becca to start thinking that something might have been happening. Becca herself has said that when Arie walked into the house that day without his luggage, she knew something was not right.

@Zaynab @havadrpepper Ok, thanks for the answers. Sorry for derailing the subject. I couldn't find an appropriate thread to rehash the break-up.

North wrote:

Lucas15 wrote:

North wrote:I do agree with the "minnow" analogy AND producers being "sharks" but not exactly sure how they would get wind of what Arie is thinking unless he tells them. They definitely aren't Arie mind readers. IMO.

IMO, he told them. From what Courtney said (on RS podcast) about her initial meetings with Arie after filming was over, Arie tried to reach out to past leads who had been through similar experiences to see how they felt and how they coped with it. IMO Arie made the decision to attempt contact with other leads through production; in so doing he honored his contract but jumped in the middle of that "shark pool" and had no choice but to play the cards that production dealt him from that point forward. It's been my opinion ever since I read about it that the Nov 22 cease and desist letter the show had sent to RS was sent because they knew then what trajectory the season ending could take and they didn't want it spoiled, so that indicates to me when they found out - which was almost immediately.

IMO it's easy for me to say what I think he should have / could have done instead of what he actually did do but hindsight is always 20 / 20. Perhaps after knowing all that happened and how it happened he might make different decisions if he had it to do over - I really have no idea because I'm not in his head so that's entirely speculation on my part.

I am unclear about what you are referring to here (re: 1st bolded phrase). I'd have to go find it but, but I'm sure I read an article quoting Robert Mills, that TPTB did NOT know about Arie going to visit Emily and if they had, they would've filmed it.

I'm also not sure how much I tie the cease and desist letter into this season, as a prediction indicator for the "most-dramatic" finale ever (re: 2nd bolded phrase). If anything, IMO, TPTB were just hedging their bets, as they should every season but I am curious about your speculation. When you say "almost immediately" -- is "immediately" after the Rose Ceremony or after he called Lauren for closure/reunification?

So if TPTB knew immediately after the FRC, that means they actually know Arie better than Arie knows Arie (and his predilection for breaking the rules!). Which to me, I find a little sad only because it would've been better for everyone had he proposed to the woman he wanted most (Lauren) the first go-round. So if they know Arie so well, why didn't TPTB film more of his interaction with Lauren B. (leading up to break-up and then afterward as well)? This is "reality" tv after all, we got reality with the break-up -- it would've been great to see and hear reality with the reunion (IMO). Because it was pretty obvious (IMO) that Arie and Lauren's filmed tv "reunion," that the real reunion had already happened online and over the phone, and this filmed scene was just "window dressing."

Look, I'm not dogging Arie for his change of heart -- he should absolutely be with who he loves. And I 100% agree about not knowing how I'd react in that situation...or even throughout a season. But, I also don't think everything Arie has done or said, can be excused away or blamed on someone else. I do think he and Lauren are a WAY better match and wished he had enough self-awareness or courage to pick her the first time.

@Lucas15 Sorry but not buying it. This wasn't Arie's first rodeo with the sharks. He had been through it during Em's season, he had been teased with his own season and had gone as far as filming his intros when the rug was pulled out from under him. He is friends with Sean Lowe and has no need to contact him via tptb. He could have kept his own council, but no, he had to go blabbing it about so that Brad Smith...Brad bloody Smith....heard about it before his own fiancée...the woman he had promised to cherish forever just days before. 

He is a 36 year old man who should be able to think for himself and know what is right and what is wrong. I don't fault him for falling for whoever he falls for or changing his mind...as stupid as I think that whole thing was. I don't even fault him all that much for having it filmed. What I do begrudge him is not having the decency to give his first fiancée a heads up about what was about to go down. The fact that they started filming their visits before the break up indicates to me that production already knew what was about to go down and they were just lulling Becca into a state of security so she wouldn't find it suspicious if they were already there. That means that Arie was already faking it then...letting her think they were making plans for her to move and to go look for houses when he knew they weren't. He could have forewarned her and apologize. Yeah, sucks for tptb to not get her full, total reaction, but it would have been the descent, kind thing to do. Obviously, kind and descent is the last thing Arie is IMO.

North wrote:
I am unclear about what you are referring to here (re: 1st bolded phrase). I'd have to go find it but, but I'm sure I read an article quoting Robert Mills, that TPTB did NOT know about Arie going to visit Emily and if they had, they would've filmed it.

I was referring to this season (not Emily's season). IMO the apparent "unsanctioned" visit to Charlotte may have resulted in production putting Arie on as short a leash as they possibly could - they knew he had gone rogue before and this season IMO they could well have wanted to make sure they didn't miss any camera opportunities.

North wrote:I'm also not sure how much I tie the cease and desist letter into this season, as a prediction indicator for the "most-dramatic" finale ever (re: 2nd bolded phrase). If anything, IMO, TPTB were just hedging their bets, as they should every season but I am curious about your speculation. When you say "almost immediately" -- is "immediately" after the Rose Ceremony or after he called Lauren for closure/reunification?

The opinion I expressed was based on information Courtney talked about (in her RS podcast) when she first met up with Arie after he returned from filming. In fact, though I didn't mention it in this post, Courtney also said that Arie told her he knew he was making a mistake (ie in not choosing Lauren) at the actual FRC after Lauren gave her "speech" to Arie. So that's pretty immediate, IMO, and that's what I was referring to when I made the observation. IMO the unknown piece is just when Arie could have contacted production to try and reach out to past leads for advice - I just happen to think that was very soon after he got back from filming.

North wrote:So if TPTB knew immediately after the FRC, that means they actually know Arie better than Arie knows Arie (and his predilection for breaking the rules!). Which to me, I find a little sad only because it would've been better for everyone had he proposed to the woman he wanted most (Lauren) the first go-round. So if they know Arie so well, why didn't TPTB film more of his interaction with Lauren B. (leading up to break-up and then afterward as well)? This is "reality" tv after all, we got reality with the break-up -- it would've been great to see and hear reality with the reunion (IMO). Because it was pretty obvious (IMO) that Arie and Lauren's filmed tv "reunion," that the real reunion had already happened online and over the phone, and this filmed scene was just "window dressing."

As above, I think Arie made contact with production very soon after he returned from filming so they didn't have to know Arie all that well - he told them what he was thinking.

IMO of course it would have been better had Arie picked and proposed to the woman he loved the first time as there wouldn't have been any second time. But he didn't. As to why he didn't is something I can only speculate on because I don't know what was really going on in his head. I DO have reason to believe that Arie may not have been "alone" in thinking Becca was - at that particular time - the better choice. CH did a podcast with Kaitlyn and at about 52:28 into Part 1 CH says:

All you can do with life is make the best decision with the information you have at that time. And he chose to propose to Becca because that was
the information he had in his heart at the time. Turned out, he was wrong. It's a big whiff, I'll give you that, and put under a big spotlight it
doesn't look good. But at the same time, the information he had at the time, and how we all felt at the time, it was right.

source

The curious thing to me is that CH included the part about "how we all felt at the time" - because I don't know what to make of the "we" stuff. How does anyone else but Arie get injected into his decision. To what extent did or didn't those "others" influence Arie's decision?

North wrote:I do think he and Lauren are a WAY better match and wished he had enough self-awareness or courage to pick her the first time.

I'm not certain how much Arie "trusted" himself to make a decision with his heart. IMO his past history suggests that he hasn't had very good luck with his heart (Cassie Harshman and Emily) as those decisions didn't turn out well for him. It's not impossible for me to suspect that he could have been easily swayed away from trusting his heart and into using his head - I can easily imagine what I would have said to Arie to influence him.

Sprite wrote:

North wrote:

Lucas15 wrote:

IMO, he told them. From what Courtney said (on RS podcast) about her initial meetings with Arie after filming was over, Arie tried to reach out to past leads who had been through similar experiences to see how they felt and how they coped with it. IMO Arie made the decision to attempt contact with other leads through production; in so doing he honored his contract but jumped in the middle of that "shark pool" and had no choice but to play the cards that production dealt him from that point forward. It's been my opinion ever since I read about it that the Nov 22 cease and desist letter the show had sent to RS was sent because they knew then what trajectory the season ending could take and they didn't want it spoiled, so that indicates to me when they found out - which was almost immediately.

IMO it's easy for me to say what I think he should have / could have done instead of what he actually did do but hindsight is always 20 / 20. Perhaps after knowing all that happened and how it happened he might make different decisions if he had it to do over - I really have no idea because I'm not in his head so that's entirely speculation on my part.

I am unclear about what you are referring to here (re: 1st bolded phrase). I'd have to go find it but, but I'm sure I read an article quoting Robert Mills, that TPTB did NOT know about Arie going to visit Emily and if they had, they would've filmed it.

I'm also not sure how much I tie the cease and desist letter into this season, as a prediction indicator for the "most-dramatic" finale ever (re: 2nd bolded phrase). If anything, IMO, TPTB were just hedging their bets, as they should every season but I am curious about your speculation. When you say "almost immediately" -- is "immediately" after the Rose Ceremony or after he called Lauren for closure/reunification?

So if TPTB knew immediately after the FRC, that means they actually know Arie better than Arie knows Arie (and his predilection for breaking the rules!). Which to me, I find a little sad only because it would've been better for everyone had he proposed to the woman he wanted most (Lauren) the first go-round. So if they know Arie so well, why didn't TPTB film more of his interaction with Lauren B. (leading up to break-up and then afterward as well)? This is "reality" tv after all, we got reality with the break-up -- it would've been great to see and hear reality with the reunion (IMO). Because it was pretty obvious (IMO) that Arie and Lauren's filmed tv "reunion," that the real reunion had already happened online and over the phone, and this filmed scene was just "window dressing."

Look, I'm not dogging Arie for his change of heart -- he should absolutely be with who he loves. And I 100% agree about not knowing how I'd react in that situation...or even throughout a season. But, I also don't think everything Arie has done or said, can be excused away or blamed on someone else. I do think he and Lauren are a WAY better match and wished he had enough self-awareness or courage to pick her the first time.

@Lucas15 Sorry but not buying it. This wasn't Arie's first rodeo with the sharks. He had been through it during Em's season, he had been teased with his own season and had gone as far as filming his intros when the rug was pulled out from under him. He is friends with Sean Lowe and has no need to contact him via tptb. He could have kept his own council, but no, he had to go blabbing it about so that Brad Smith...Brad bloody Smith....heard about it before his own fiancée...the woman he had promised to cherish forever just days before. 

He is a 36 year old man who should be able to think for himself and know what is right and what is wrong. I don't fault him for falling for whoever he falls for or changing his mind...as stupid as I think that whole thing was. I don't even fault him all that much for having it filmed. What I do begrudge him is not having the decency to give his first fiancée a heads up about what was about to go down. The fact that they started filming their visits before the break up indicates to me that production already knew what was about to go down and they were just lulling Becca into a state of security so she wouldn't find it suspicious if they were already there. That means that Arie was already faking it then...letting her think they were making plans for her to move and to go look for houses when he knew they weren't. He could have forewarned her and apologize. Yeah, sucks for tptb to not get her full, total reaction, but it would have been the descent, kind thing to do. Obviously, kind and descent is the last thing Arie is IMO.

Lucas15 wrote:

North wrote:I do agree with the "minnow" analogy AND producers being "sharks" but not exactly sure how they would get wind of what Arie is thinking unless he tells them. They definitely aren't Arie mind readers. IMO.

IMO, he told them. From what Courtney said (on RS podcast) about her initial meetings with Arie after filming was over, Arie tried to reach out to past leads who had been through similar experiences to see how they felt and how they coped with it. IMO Arie made the decision to attempt contact with other leads through production; in so doing he honored his contract but jumped in the middle of that "shark pool" and had no choice but to play the cards that production dealt him from that point forward. It's been my opinion ever since I read about it that the Nov 22 cease and desist letter the show had sent to RS was sent because they knew then what trajectory the season ending could take and they didn't want it spoiled, so that indicates to me when they found out - which was almost immediately.

IMO it's easy for me to say what I think he should have / could have done instead of what he actually did do but hindsight is always 20 / 20. Perhaps after knowing all that happened and how it happened he might make different decisions if he had it to do over - I really have no idea because I'm not in his head so that's entirely speculation on my part.

Did he really reach out to former leads? Jason said he didn’t, I’m pretty sure Sean did also (correct me if I’m wrong), and both Ben H and Nick said he didn’t talk to them on the Almost Famous podcast. I would take everything he said to Courtney with a grain of salt.

It’s apparent now that Arie had doubts early on so why did he continue to lead on Becca? Why did he let her think that he was just talking to Lauren so he could move past her? And why didn’t he show some empathy with the woman who he was engaged to? All questions that won’t be answered now but Arie could have helped himself a lot in public opinion if he had done things differently, imo.

Yeah, I think he only talked to Rachel and jojo at WG filming, from what Rachel said. And he didn't really ask for advice, he just asked how long it took her to get over Peter. IMO.

It's funny there are a few contestants who have said, no he didn't contact me, wish he would have contacted me, I wonder why he didn't. However it looks like he took the opportunity during BWG to ask Rachel how long would it take to get over the F2 elimination. BWG started filming Dec 2nd, so it tells me how soon after filming Arie was having second thoughts or whatever was happening.

Also, I find it hard to believe Brad Smith of all people, Bachelor Canada would just so happen to get the scoop of what was going to happen, and conveniently his g/f knew Caroline.

Even Courtney said she really, really encouraged him to reach out to Jason, since he went through the same exact thing, but he chose not to. She also told him to warn Becca beforehand and not blindside the poor girl. IMO, it shows an enormous amount of arrogance to not reach out for advice and just completely disregard advice when it comes to something as serious as blindsiding and hurting your fiancé. All, IMO.

It's hard to believe that CH praised him on K's podcast, saying he's a good guy, that he, CH was jealous of what Arie did to go after the girl regardless of being told by himself it's going to be bad. However we know he didn't reach out to anyone, or just a simple question to Rachel, he didn't handle it the way so many former's are saying they would have handled it, and yet Millsy is giving a head's up there will be more "unedited" footage filmed. CH on K's podcast encouraged viewers to support Arie and Lauren, everyone should be happy, they are happy Becca's happy. He also said viewers got to love Becca more after watching the break up on film, which makes it easy for viewers root for her.  Huh huh.

They seem pretty happy, and for me, just like Jason took the chance regardless of how much he was going to be hated, and who also I believe didn't contact anyone, I give them both credit. Yes he could have said no to any one of those producers, but Arie and Jason are little minions when it comes to standing up against MF and Co IMHO. And yet they did whatever it took to end up with the one they wanted and took the heat for it. In Jason's case for many years and in A/L's case for awhile longer yet IMHO.

Aria wrote:Even Courtney said she really, really encouraged him to reach out to Jason, since he went through the same exact thing, but he chose not to.

Jason might seem to have been a logical person to talk to, but I think he's about the last person that the show would have wanted Arie to talk to. IIRC Jason has been quite vocal for some time that the one thing he regrets most about his season was going along with filming and airing the breakup, and with Mills stating they had a "contract with the audience" (source) to show the breakup I doubt they wanted anyone advising Arie to not let them film it.

But I don't think that was really the kind of questions that Arie wanted to ask. I think Arie might have been more concerned about the emotional struggle he was having - things like was it normal? Did it pass? How long did it go on? Was there ever a time when another lead felt like they wanted to make a switch? How did they get past that feeling? Was another lead really conflicted when they made a choice? How did they resolve that conflict? Rachel seems to me to have been someone who would be very able to answer those kind of questions.

At the end of the day I think Arie had to make a couple of tough decisions and I'm not sure that anyone can really advise you about how you feel for someone or what you don't feel for someone else - that's a highly personal thing. IMO the final decision - about getting back with Lauren, was one that they both had to make with full knowledge of the consequences, and to me they appear to have decided that it was well worth the public criticism, and they both seem to have very supportive families and that counts for a whole lot more IMO than anonymous commenters on IG.