Rachel Lindsay & Bryan Abasolo - Bachelorette 13 - Discussion - #2

Wait. Vanessa called Rachel a bully... and that's it? That's the reason Rachel got completely butt hurt? Nothing more? You have to be kidding me here. Rachel, aka Regina George of the squad labeled a bully? You don't say?!!! Shocker of the year right there. Not. Sounds totally accurate to me, and also not shocking Rachel doesn't have the self awareness to view any negative trait in herself either.

I find this all to be a big SO WHAT? which it would have and could have stayed had it not been for DLo's ridiculous comments, IMO. Monday morning quarter-backing this issue of two women who didn't like each other mainly because they were very much alike AND after the same man is futile because Rachel didn't get him and Vanessa couldn't keep him and I have yet to see why either of them wanted him.

IMO Rachel has done a thousand times better for herself with Bryan and I'm sure, in time Vanessa will too. They should both be grateful they dodged a bullet, high-five it and skip along, IMO.

I have been reading the last ten pages of this thread with no intention to contribute but I think I should point out a few things. I apologize ahead of time for any offense - none intended. DLo is a none issue to me. It does not matter whether you like Vanessa or Rachel, that is besides the point. We should not trivialize the word bully*IMO*. Being called a bully in kindergarten is not as destructive or disparaging as being called a bully as an adult and on national television. It is even worse if you are a POC *IMO*, especially if you are not self employed. Angry and Aggressive are words that have historically been used in this country (US) to stereotype black men and women*IMO*. If you did not know this before, now you do! A quick google search will further enlighten you, if you need it. There are certain truths in the situation between Vanessa and Rachel. Rachel's truth was the implied racial slur connoted by the word aggressive. Vanessa's truth was she might in fact have felt bullied by Rachel's attitude and the actions of the squad*IMO*. The problem was her inability to back up the words she used to describe her feelings. We own our words as adults - we don't have the luxury of saying "I didn't mean it" and Vanessa did not own hers. If she had given those examples to Rachel, then the racial implication would have been ruled out *IMO*. I have been called a pushy broad in my professional career and while this was not a reference to my race, it was still hurtful because my male colleagues asking for the same entitlements were not called pushy dicks. The thing that was most interesting in the Vanessa/Rachel situation to me though was that TPTB opted to separate the women - why if it was as harmless as it sounds? Why not explore the situation for ratings gold? Why then, the following season have the Lee/Kenny drama? Didn't they know who Lee was before the show started or were they trying to diffuse the Vanessa/Rachel situation if it came out by indirectly putting it all out there.

@Kolormiblnd well said.

Kolormiblnd wrote:I have been reading the last ten pages of this thread with no intention to contribute but I think I should point out a few things. I apologize ahead of time for any offense - none intended. DLo is a none issue to me. It does not matter whether you like Vanessa or Rachel, that is besides the point. We should not trivialize the word bully. Being called a bully in kindergarten is not as destructive or disparaging as being called a bully as an adult and on national television. It is even worse if you are a POC, especially if you are not self employed. Angry and Aggressive are words that have historically been used in this country (US) to stereotype black men and women. If you did not know this before, now you do! A quick google search will further enlighten you, if you need it. There are certain truths in the situation between Vanessa and Rachel. Rachel's truth was the implied racial slur connoted by the word aggressive. Vanessa's truth was she might in fact have felt bullied by Rachel's attitude and the actions of the squad. The problem was her inability to back up the words she used to describe her feelings. We own our words as adults - we don't have the luxury of saying "I didn't mean it" and Vanessa did not own hers. If she had given those examples to Rachel, then the racial implication would have been ruled out. I have been called a pushy broad in my professional career and while this was not a reference to my race, it was still hurtful because my male colleagues asking for the same entitlements were not called pushy dicks. The thing that was most interesting in the Vanessa/Rachel situation to me though was that TPTB opted to separate the women - why if it was as harmless as it sounds? Why not explore the situation for ratings gold? Why then, the following season have the Lee/Kenny drama? Didn't they know who Lee was before the show started or were they trying to diffuse the Vanessa/Rachel situation if it came out by indirectly putting it all out there.

@Kolormiblnd The separation was not tptbs idea. Apparently Rachel requested it. IMO it was not used for ratings because they wanted Rachel for their next lead. That was always going to be a more difficult sell...for unfortunate reasons...and IMO they did not want to lose their golden ticket. Does anyone think she would have done the show if she had been edited in a less than stellar manner? I don't. As for the Lee/Kenny drama, I said as soon as she was cast, there would be a racist in there. They knew exactly who he was...he was scouted. Once she was the lead, they don't care any more. I'm sure they were hoping for round 2 with Lee and did everything in their power to set things off.

Not a racist caused I'm a Chinese so understand how people could have some stereotype about us.

But, I'm curious to know that, does that mean we can't confront a black woman, if she happened to be really acting like a bully? They would take out the race card immediately I can imagine.

peggy0221 wrote:Not a racist caused I'm a Chinese so understand how people could have some stereotype about us.

But, I'm curious to know that, does that mean we can't confront a black woman, if she happened to be really acting like a bully? They would take out the race card immediately I can imagine.

Confronting people is always tricky. How to get your concerns out there without making the situation more difficult. I think race just adds another dimension to that. As for bullies, no matter the race, they are not likely to listen no matter the soundness of the concern.

I think it's important to be sensitive when trying to convey a negative regardless of who the person might be.
You never know how it might be received, is true.
But, we also, live in a far different world.
People are on their smart phones day and night. A generation ago and in many homes still, it is considered the epitome of rudeness to be on the phone during a meal. Go into a restaurant at any time and see how this plays out.
Social media rules king. The sun rises and sets for far too many many with the rise and fall of the unknown follower.
Meanwhile, many can't spell, do simple math without a calendar or locate states/countries on a map. Go figure. They know who the Kardashians are though.
Parents are stressed parenting. Teachers are stressed teaching and healthcare workers are stressed caring for people. Everyone is beyond their beyond. IMO
The world is a melting pot. We all have a shared history. It's called being human. Anyone at anytime can be angry about anything. IMO it doesn't get much done or solve anything.IMO
Idiots are always going to exist. IMO Hopefully kindness and understanding will prevail.

@sprite I agree... as someone who has been called aggressive myself, I wasn’t happy at the time about the negative connotation (naturally) but in hindsight, I can see why the guy thought so. I’ve been subjected to all the corporate BS in my career similar to Rachel but I don’t use that reasoning to justify my behaviour. From my perspective, it’s fair to call a spade a spade in an individual context and it have nothing to do with race. Of course she has a right to be offended but doesn’t mean the accusations don’t have merit. As for Rachel’s explanation, props for speaking out but she missed the point... she says V had no explanation for calling her a bully yet Rachel said Vanessa explained that Rachel “used 'aggressive' tones with her”... it’s not too dismiliar to when Peter told her he “felt attacked” on ATFR (many people on SM and the press agreed with this). IMO both of these instances were about her tone... if people are perceiving that about you, take note it’s how you make others feel. Kenny alluded to this side of Rachel on RS podcast... “that’s just Rachel”. I mean, she’s “chill until she’s not”..was this one of those times... who knows.??

“http://www.usmagazine.com/entertainment/news/rachel-lindsay-vanessa-grimaldi-called-me-a-bully-w506140

@Kashathediva I agree, but IMO the problem is that many are so in tune with their SM, that they just no longer seem to understand person to person interactions. The attention span is so short that they tune things out if it requires any real thinking and understanding of an actual human being. Social cues and manners seem to have gone out the window. I was recently out with friends at a very nice restaurant and a couple on in front of us spent the whole time there on their phones...in between bites. They only time they spoke was discussing what to order. Similarly at work, I find the younger set are on their phones constantly. I literally have to tell them to go do their bloody job and then I'm a bossy b*tch. If you actually came to work to you know...work, I wouldn't say anything. I don't have a problem with them checking their phones every once in a while...we do have down time...but your cute little cat video that your friend just sent you isn't all that important when you have someone screaming and someone else trying to kick their door down. Sorry...  rant over.

BachIsMyGuiltyPleasure wrote:@sprite I agree... as someone who has been called aggressive myself, I wasn’t happy at the time about the negative connotation (naturally) but in hindsight, I can see why the guy thought so.  I’ve been subjected to all the corporate BS in my career similar to Rachel but I don’t use that reasoning to justify my behaviour.  From my perspective, it’s fair to call a spade a spade in an individual context and it have nothing to do with race.  Of course she has a right to be offended but doesn’t mean the accusations don’t have merit.  As for Rachel’s explanation, props for speaking out but she missed the point... she says V had no explanation for calling her a bully yet Rachel said Vanessa explained that Rachel  “used 'aggressive' tones with her”... it’s not too dismiliar to when Peter told her he “felt attacked” on ATFR (many people on SM and the press agreed with this).  IMO both of these instances were about her tone... if people are perceiving that about you, take note it’s how you make others feel.  Kenny alluded to this side of Rachel on RS podcast... “that’s just Rachel”.  I mean, she’s “chill until she’s not”..was this one of those times... who knows.??

“http://www.usmagazine.com/entertainment/news/rachel-lindsay-vanessa-grimaldi-called-me-a-bully-w506140

Very true. Just because you may not agree with how the person sees you, doesn't mean it doesn't have some truths and that you shouldn't think about their points. Years ago when I was much younger I was made aware that some people thought I was a b*tch upon first meeting me. I was hurt and frankly, shocked. I knew me and the last thing I was was a b*tch, but I got it from several different people and they didn't say it in a hurtful way. These were my friends who had introduced me to some other people and this is what they were told from these people. They naturally defended me and said you just don't know her, etc and when they told me it was in a joking manner ... as if, how silly. Can you believe them? ... but I took a good long look at myself and realised that because I was shy, I came across as rather brisk and to the point and some people took this for rudeness and being b*tchy. I realised that was not how I wanted to be seen and did some work on my social skills. Looking back, I could have just laughed it off or simply ignored it, but I didn't. I took it as an aha moment and used it to learn about myself and how my behaviour impacted others. At the same time, it helped me learn to read social cues from others and become more understanding and diplomatic. Probably one of the best things I ever did for myself personally and professionally. Thank goodness I didn't just brush them off for the sake of keeping it 100% real....that's why I hate that phrase.

@BachIsMyGuiltyPleasure and @Sprite, ITA with your posts! Well said!

Learning to bite my tongue and not say the first thing that springs to my mind was a lesson I learned the hard way in my professional career. IMO Once you get the reputation of lacking diplomacy and fighting back to prove your point irrespective of the truth in the other person's words (displaying lack of self-awareness basically), it's hard to break out of it and get people to take you seriously. I admit when I took up my first job in a very male-dominated tech industry, a part of me would always perceive my opinions/solutions being disregarded as a micro-aggression. As I gained more experience, I started seeing that sometimes it's got nothing to do with me being female and everything to do with the other solution being the more optimal one. When my solution was better, my male colleagues supported it just as much. Not to say that racism/sexism doesn't exist coz it totally does IMO but if you start looking at everything through that lens, you would always see everyone else as wrong and you always being right and a perceived victim in your own eyes. It doesn't do anyone any favors in the long run IMO.  

Since we never saw the incident between Rachel/Vanessa, have zero context and most likely will never hear Vanessa's side of things, I will stay clear of it and use Jasmine as an example. Jasmine is black but IMO she was both aggressive and a bully on BIP. I would have the exact same opinion of her if she was white. So race has nothing to do with it yet Jasmine got into Twitter fights with people who were calling out her behavior and accused them of being racists and took zero responsibility. My point is that one cannot always blame racism/sexism and at some point, we need to take responsibility for our words/actions.

All JMO