Bachelor 21 - Nick Viall - Media SM Vids - Discussion - *Sleuthing Spoilers* #5

Loulou wrote:Just wondering if Raven had second intro to parents/family as if 2nd N and mother could have been talking about both woman and it has been edited as discussion only about R??  I keep thinking of the interview where N clearly stated only fell in love with one woman.

ITA N and R relationship is similar to Corines - brother/sister as from what we are shown IMO R appears like a nice, fun girl but immature/naive at times especially as N is 36.  

During A's Bette season Nick talked about how he was previously engaged and he took responsibility for it ending because it was a rebound relationship. He has also admitted to a relationship, non-tv, where someone cheated on him.   Perhaps he was first cheated on then zoomed into the rebound engagement.  Raven could remind him of his younger self.  He was around the same age she is now when he was engagement.
Raven has good qualities (lovable qualities) but IMO would benefit from closure on her past relationship and would benefit from learning to date in a different way than her prior 2 years without love.  
Dates with Nick have a younger, fresher feel - roller skating, ice skating, going to a soccer practice.  He had to keep specific numbers at specific times however I do feel he cared about his last few as people.  A case of I love your humor, your ......
Perhaps he hopes she herself recognizes that what she feels for him is not romantic love, or that she recognizes that revenge not only hurts the cheating guy but also the guy you meet on tv and say ILY to as a part of the revenge tactic.
It's an interesting relationship that really has no romantic future. It's about something else IMO.

 I also think it is similar to Corinne in that it is an opportunity to become more self-aware.

Nick's dad is such an amazing man and role model and I can see where Nick gets so many of his great qualities from and his ability to be vulnerable and show emotion.

It's why to me there has never been anything fake about Nick showing his emotion and crying despite how many times he's been accused of faking it and this clip only confirms for me that Nick gets it from his dad and no doubt in my mind that Nick's dad showed him from an early age that a strong man is willing to show emotion and be vulnerable.

One of the most refreshing things this season was to see a lead show so much empathy and emotion as Nick has especially when letting girls go and not leading them on and it's a testament to who he is and how he was raised and his wonderful family, IMO  

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=smX8eFHD74w

https://www.yahoo.com/news/brie-larson-fangirled-hard-nick-200614797.html

I hadn't seen it posted. This was fun! You have to scroll down to catch her interview on Kimmel.

Oops, it was pages back. Oh well, for anyone who might have missed it.

Awww Nick's dad is worried Vanessa would hurt Nick...he's such a sweet man.
IMO I find Vanessa's tone of voice surprising...esp in this convo with a sweet man like Chris Viall and the father of the man she supposedly loves.

I find Vanessa very very hard to relate to...her tone of voice in this conversation comes across IMO as self-righteous and almost confrontational.... she confuses me. I would expect much more softness from her at this point in time esp with the emotions she professes to have for Nick. But instead she's had the same perspective from the very beginning through now. Her tone as it's been in the past takes a "There are things I need done exactly my way for me to let him have what he wants" resoluteness. She's consistently demanded things of Nick which isn't necessarily a bad thing but it seems to be her MO and I find it very surprising just her approach so late in the game and with his dad who she should be trying to connect to rather than clarify her demands to...I just don't get it. She keeps constantly negotiating for X, Y, Z that she needs and wants. From what we've seen of her Vanessa seems to need a man who's going to dote on her and have the means and willingness to compromise a lot for her and to treat her exactly how she wants and needs... she keeps playing that refrain from the Shania Twain "That ain't impressing me much"

The way Nick's life is at the moment, I highly doubt he's in a place to be the kind of partner she wants and demands. Nick at this time needs a 'roll up her sleeves and jump into the deep end with him' gal ...the 'ride or die chick' whose fave motto is 'let's figure it out' esp cos of the uncertainty and unpredictable nature of his life. IMO i'm totally not getting that vibe from Vanessa at this time in her life...I think she has traditional expectation about relationships and the role the man takes as a protector and provider of stability - and I'm not sure how much of that stability and certainty Nick's life is able to provide at this time. they just seem incompatible and Vanessa seems to know it cos she's crying about one thing or another that's not going her way every single date they have! imo calling a spade a spade from where I see it

^^IMO, their chemistry and compatibility was so great through Ep.5, they refused to show us their quality time. Ep.6 came along and tensions began to rise. I get it, nothing to do but talk about Nick or hear someone else talk about Nick. In some ways, since Ep. 6, it has been a rough ride. I think V's HTD and her family's concern really hit home. She's been an emotional roller coaster now for weeks. But one thing has remained a constant, her love for Nick. There have been highs and lows but together they have worked through it. Vanessa is very much in her head at this point. What if she isn't ready to give up her job, completely leave her lifelong family Sunday tradition in the rear view mirror? She's scared. I get it. IMO, a life with Nick outweighed her fears when all was said and done. At least that is what her instagram is telling me as of today.

@mprssdbyu I totally get what you are saying but IMHO if we're totally honest I think it goes beyond whether she's willing to compromise (which is a serious question on its own to) SHOULD she even compromise the things that make her sooo deeply happy and fulfill her so much for so much uncertainty and unpredictable things that she did not herself seek out? I really think after a full season of her negotiating each of her needs and demands and still getting a "I don't want to not live in America" she's just going to end up resentful and unhappy if she does give up her sources of happiness (these things aren't simply her source of stability but they are part of the life that sustain her as person). I also really don't get her approach at all! Every time she makes a demand she's challenging Nick to answer her rather than taking a 'let's work it out together' tone and approach...

Nick imo is not yet at her level of engagement with these issues cos he's had many women to deal with so far and imo he's been checked out of the relationships all season. And until DWTS I highly doubt he had any concrete answers. With the person Vanessa seems to be, I think the compromises he's asking her to make are too much esp with how she seems to be handling things from the time their "honeymoon" stage in Epi 4-5 dissipated into "working out our differences" and confrontational stage...

I don't think a relationship is supposed to be this hard and I don't see Nick making it much easier tbh cos he was taking risks and betting on an uncertain future. I also don't see Vanessa making it any easier cos she has a lot of demands and needs every single step that are incompatible with Nick's and she's not taking a softer more 'we don't know X ...so let's work it out together' tone IMO I see them going at it and just feeling resentful and distant from each other esp with the tone Vanessa is taking IMHO

Sometimes - love just is not enough to make a relationship work!

@emusha I totally get where you are coming from. But here's the thing, only hindsight is 20/20. He fell in love with Vanessa. He did everything possible to put their life in black and white for her. He didn't paint a rose garden so to speak but he did offer her his heart and let her know he wanted to work through it as a team. If we find that she can't do that in the coming months, years I still don't think he'll have any reqrets. She is what he came looking for. JMOAA

I got the love story I hoped for when they announced him as TB two fold. I can't ask for more than that.

@mprssdbyu fair enough, regarding not asking much more from tb than the couple and ITA with you that Vanessa was the woman he came in looking for. Agree with you and I've always thought, I still think she's 100% what he wanted but imo he will leave this journey starting to learn what he needs not just what he wants. He's put it all on the line and she has as well, they'll go in eyes wide open and we shall see how they will come out on the other side. IMO

emusha wrote:@mprssdbyu I totally get what you are saying but IMHO if we're totally honest I think it goes beyond whether she's willing to compromise (which is a serious question on its own to) SHOULD she even compromise the things that make her sooo deeply happy and fulfill her so much for so much uncertainty and unpredictable things that she did not herself seek out? I really think after a full season of her negotiating each of her needs and demands and still getting a "I don't want to not live in America" she's just going to end up resentful and unhappy if she does give up her sources of happiness (these things aren't simply her source of stability but they are part of the life that sustain her as person). I also really don't get her approach at all! Every time she makes a demand she's challenging Nick to answer her rather than taking a 'let's work it out together' tone and approach...

Nick imo is not yet at her level of engagement with these issues cos he's had many women to deal with so far and imo he's been checked out of the relationships all season. And until DWTS I highly doubt he had any concrete answers. With the person Vanessa seems to be, I think the compromises he's asking her to make are too much esp with how she seems to be handling things from the time their "honeymoon" stage in Epi 4-5 dissipated into "working out our differences" and confrontational stage...

I don't think a relationship is supposed to be this hard and I don't see Nick making it much easier tbh cos he was taking risks and betting on an uncertain future. I also don't see Vanessa making it any easier cos she has a lot of demands and needs every single step that are incompatible with Nick's and she's not taking a softer more 'we don't know X ...so let's work it out together' tone IMO I see them going at it and just feeling resentful and distant from each other esp with the tone Vanessa is taking IMHO

Sometimes - love just is not enough to make a relationship work!

I hear what your saying.  My impression of Vanessa is markedly different than yours however I do completely agree with Chris Viall saying "sacrifice and selflessness" is the key.
In fact, if she refused to stay (highly doubt she would do what Kaitlyn did and let Nick begin a proposal) I believe it would be her decision to break her own heart and therefore Nick would be exempt in her mind from being responsible. My view of Vanessa is that she accepts others with the same lack of judgement she practices with her students.  She would set Nick free if she felt he was unable to love her specifically deeply enough to embody what Nick's dad knows a marriage needs. She has already stated in an older ITM that she was uncertain if she was good enough for Nick.  I assume she meant good enough for him to want to follow what surely he too had been told by his dad at some point in time.

That being said, no one came close to their depth of emotion. It IMO was the only non-showmance. And the last page is yet to be revealed. I believe Nick will surprise the uninitiated - unexpected

notarose wrote:

emusha wrote:@mprssdbyu I totally get what you are saying but IMHO if we're totally honest I think it goes beyond whether she's willing to compromise (which is a serious question on its own to) SHOULD she even compromise the things that make her sooo deeply happy and fulfill her so much for so much uncertainty and unpredictable things that she did not herself seek out? I really think after a full season of her negotiating each of her needs and demands and still getting a "I don't want to not live in America" she's just going to end up resentful and unhappy if she does give up her sources of happiness (these things aren't simply her source of stability but they are part of the life that sustain her as person). I also really don't get her approach at all! Every time she makes a demand she's challenging Nick to answer her rather than taking a 'let's work it out together' tone and approach...

Nick imo is not yet at her level of engagement with these issues cos he's had many women to deal with so far and imo he's been checked out of the relationships all season. And until DWTS I highly doubt he had any concrete answers. With the person Vanessa seems to be, I think the compromises he's asking her to make are too much esp with how she seems to be handling things from the time their "honeymoon" stage in Epi 4-5 dissipated into "working out our differences" and confrontational stage...

I don't think a relationship is supposed to be this hard and I don't see Nick making it much easier tbh cos he was taking risks and betting on an uncertain future. I also don't see Vanessa making it any easier cos she has a lot of demands and needs every single step that are incompatible with Nick's and she's not taking a softer more 'we don't know X ...so let's work it out together' tone IMO I see them going at it and just feeling resentful and distant from each other esp with the tone Vanessa is taking IMHO

Sometimes - love just is not enough to make a relationship work!

I hear what your saying.  My impression of Vanessa is markedly different than yours however I do completely agree with Chris Viall saying "sacrifice and selflessness" is the key.
In fact, if she refused to stay (highly doubt she would do what Kaitlyn did and let Nick begin a proposal) I believe it would be her decision to break her own heart and therefore Nick would be exempt in her mind from being responsible. My view of Vanessa is that she accepts others with the same lack of judgement she practices with her students.  She would set Nick free if she felt he was unable to love her specifically deeply enough to embody what Nick's dad knows a marriage needs. She has already stated in an older ITM that she was uncertain if she was good enough for Nick.  I assume she meant good enough for him to want to follow what surely he too had been told by his dad at some point in time.

That being said, no one came close to their depth of emotion. It IMO was the only non-showmance. And the last page is yet to be revealed. I believe Nick will surprise the uninitiated.

Maybe Vanessa has that fear of letting go of her family's Sunday lunches because she has been so accustomed to her family traditions, her family is her safe haven...without knowing how Nick feels about her totally, she doesn't feel the sense of securities from him, thus she cannot let go of that...I believe, if Nick can make her very happy, she will be willing to compromise with that...

Ever since Nick and Vanessa have been talking about their issues, I feel like all they have been doing is just talking about it, and not planning on it... it seems to me that Nick is undecided, on what to do regardless of his feelings for her...maybe also due to time constraints, I think, if Nick has allowed his fear of his relationship not working overcomes his love for Vanessa...Nick will not propose to her...but, since Nick believes in the leap of faith...he is willing to jump in to take those risks...

I believe that the main factor for all of these fears surfacing on Vanessa is her doubts on whether Nick really loves her enough to be willing to compromise with her on her issues (he hasn't said the words 'I Love You' to her yet)...she has reflected these feelings of uncertainties when she talks to Nick's Dad on her love for him and how he seemingly feels for her...

Vanessa may seemingly not wanting to forego her Sunday lunches with her families, but, I don't think she will actually be insisting on making it every Sunday if it is not workable....when they are talking about these issues Vanessa is probably trying to feel Nick's responses...and, what she is getting out of Nick is his feeling that 'I am not traditional, I don't want to get too close to your family, it may get too complicated' those have been their conversations at the hot tub, although Nick has agreed on both of them meeting in the middle and making compromises, she probably feels that it is not enough since she still don't know much about him...when they have discussed it further and Nick has told her that he is happy to embrace her family's traditions...she sounds happy...saying that seems to be the re-assurances that she has been seeking from Nick--that he will take into considerations her family traditions...

Vanessa has told Nick, she doesn't want him to propose to her, if he does not feel that he cannot live without her...what Vanessa expects from him is the same kind of love she is willing to give out...I can feel that Vanessa is willing to give Nick her unconditional love for him, but she is afraid that Nick may not be able to reciprocate the same unconditional love to her...thus not being satisfied with his answers...that shows how much uncertainties she is feeling on Nick's part...I don't have doubts that Vanessa will forego her family's every Sunday lunches, maybe reducing it to once or twice a month, but I think her fear is that Nick doesn't love her enough to sacrifice for her when she knows very well that she will be willing to sacrifice for him...she doesn't feel special...I still remember what Melissa says about Vanessa, she knows her sister will make sacrifices to the person she loves to the point of being unhappy and hurt...maybe her past experiences with her ex- has made her to become more self-aware...thus, to make sure that she is on the same page with Nick, she needs those questions to be answered before she'll make any commitments...

Soul mates relationship are not easy relationship, but they are workable due to the willingness on both sides to understand each other, as well as to give and take...a relationship is hard, if the unconditional love being given is one sided, and the sacrifices being made are coming only from one person and not two...Nick and Vanessa are comfortable to each other...but the main fact, that they live in two different countries make it a little bit complicated...Vanessa is used to being in Canada, I guess she hasn't travel far and long enough to be at ease staying outside of her comfort zones...thus, her fear of losing contacts with her family is intense...if Nick can assure Vanessa his intensive love and feelings for her...I think she'll be able to adjust or pick a new tradition where everything will center on their families instead of her or his families...

- JMO -

emusha wrote:@mprssdbyu I totally get what you are saying but IMHO if we're totally honest I think it goes beyond whether she's willing to compromise (which is a serious question on its own to) SHOULD she even compromise the things that make her sooo deeply happy and fulfill her so much for so much uncertainty and unpredictable things that she did not herself seek out? I really think after a full season of her negotiating each of her needs and demands and still getting a "I don't want to not live in America" she's just going to end up resentful and unhappy if she does give up her sources of happiness (these things aren't simply her source of stability but they are part of the life that sustain her as person). I also really don't get her approach at all! Every time she makes a demand she's challenging Nick to answer her rather than taking a 'let's work it out together' tone and approach...

Nick imo is not yet at her level of engagement with these issues cos he's had many women to deal with so far and imo he's been checked out of the relationships all season. And until DWTS I highly doubt he had any concrete answers. With the person Vanessa seems to be, I think the compromises he's asking her to make are too much esp with how she seems to be handling things from the time their "honeymoon" stage in Epi 4-5 dissipated into "working out our differences" and confrontational stage...

I don't think a relationship is supposed to be this hard and I don't see Nick making it much easier tbh cos he was taking risks and betting on an uncertain future. I also don't see Vanessa making it any easier cos she has a lot of demands and needs every single step that are incompatible with Nick's and she's not taking a softer more 'we don't know X ...so let's work it out together' tone IMO I see them going at it and just feeling resentful and distant from each other esp with the tone Vanessa is taking IMHO

Sometimes - love just is not enough to make a relationship work!

My sense is that some may feel that Vanessa is too high maintenance of a girl for Nick. Perhaps.  But I still maintain that we shouldn't under estimate Nick, I'm sure that he knew what he was doing. He was willing to trade off several things he would be getting from a woman who wouldn't challenge him every step of the way to get someone like Vanessa.

I am also guilty of this, I seem to be imposing my beliefs, values, and outlook in rationalizing whether Nick's pick of Vanessa is the right one or a good one. And I really don't because I'm not Nick. Inasmuch as I say I've watched him for years and I seem to know what he likes or wants, I really don't. What i know is that he seems to be a risk taker. So if he is taking a risk with someone like Vanessa for some great love, then more power to him. I just want him to be happy.

I seem to remember saying something similar when we were debating whether Sean and Catherine were compatible because of religion, Sean doing DWTS, Seattle and Texas too far, North and South too different cultures, etc., etc., etc.  You are right it's about love and selflessness. To me, I believe Nick and Vanessa both know what that means.

emusha wrote:Awww Nick's dad is worried Vanessa would hurt Nick...he's such a sweet man.
IMO I find Vanessa's tone of voice surprising...esp in this convo with a sweet man like Chris Viall and the father of the man she supposedly loves.

I find Vanessa very very hard to relate to...her tone of voice in this conversation comes across IMO as self-righteous and almost confrontational.... she confuses me. I would expect much more softness from her at this point in time esp with the emotions she professes to have for Nick. But instead she's had the same perspective from the very beginning through now. Her tone as it's been in the past takes a "There are things I need done exactly my way for me to let him have what he wants" resoluteness. She's consistently demanded things of Nick which isn't necessarily a bad thing but it seems to be her MO and I find it very surprising just her approach so late in the game and with his dad who she should be trying to connect to rather than clarify her demands to...I just don't get it. She keeps constantly negotiating for X, Y, Z that she needs and wants. From what we've seen of her Vanessa seems to need a man who's going to dote on her and have the means and willingness to compromise a lot for her and to treat her exactly how she wants and needs... she keeps playing that refrain from the Shania Twain "That ain't impressing me much"

The way Nick's life is at the moment, I highly doubt he's in a place to be the kind of partner she wants and demands. Nick at this time needs a 'roll up her sleeves and jump into the deep end with him' gal ...the 'ride or die chick' whose fave motto is 'let's figure it out'  esp cos of the uncertainty and unpredictable nature of his life. IMO i'm totally not getting that vibe from Vanessa at this time in her life...I think she has traditional expectation about relationships and the role the man takes as a protector and provider of stability - and I'm not sure how much of that stability and certainty Nick's life is able to provide at this time. they just seem incompatible and Vanessa seems to know it cos she's crying about one thing or another that's not going her way every single date they have! imo calling a spade a spade from where I see it

I don't think the issue is connections and compatibilities...Vanessa knows that love cannot sustain a long lasting relationship...it needs sacrifices and selflessness to sustain long lasting relationship as well...she asks Nick's father because she wants to know his point of view...when she sees his father sheds tears, that's when she has also started to cry...her emotions are level up because Nick hasn't told her how much he loves her...her fear is overpowering her sense of thoughts...she can feel that her love is unconditional, thus she expects and hopes that Nick feels the same...I don't think the way she discusses the issues makes her confrontational...the only part which I actually feel Vanessa raises her voice is that part wherein they're discussing about her family being traditional and Nick says he is not...she feels like Nick is not willing to stay or be with her family, but, she tones down and has listened attentively after Nick clarifies his stand and has stated his reasons...when Nick further clarifies it saying that he is willing to embrace her traditions, she is happy...

On moving, Nick's answers to her questions sound like he is not willing to move, thus she's feeling his uncompromising tone...

I believe Vanessa can compromise and make sacrifices...but, I think because she doesn't really know how much Nick loves him...she cannot specifically say where she stands...everything for her seems to be still at a blur...so much uncertainties has caused her fears to intensify...I think, if I am in her place, I would also feel the same...Nick hasn't decided on whom he'll pick, thus she doesn't even know that she has Nick's heart--100% belonging to her...

Until Nick actually tells her as she has stated that he cannot live without her, she will not be able to settle...she needs Nick re-assurances in regards to his feelings for her...I am confident that Vanessa will compromise and make sacrifices, if she can feel that the unconditional love she feels for him will be reciprocated with the same unconditional love she is offering him..

- JMO -.