Nick Viall - Bachelor 21 - Episode 9 Feb 27 - *Sleuthing Spoilers*

Kashathediva wrote:If so, she could be starring in Orange is the New Black soon.

Haha ..
Brandi Clarke ... "I dont look good in orange and I hate stripes". ....that might stop her, being a boutique owner and all.

mindless wrote:Well Nick only has himself to blame if he went there with Raven despite all the red flags. She's made it pretty clear that kissing and telling is her MO. I would hope he's smarter than that. JMO.

Your post made me think of something...

What if TPTB knew about Raven's ex and the no ILY or O history prior to the HTDs. Plausible, right? They whispered into Raven's ear that she could grow closer to Nick if she shared all of this with him. Meanwhile, they drag in Andi under the guise that she's there to bury the hatchet with Nick, but the real reason she was there was to try to persuade Nick that he 'deserves' to have sex with all three of them if he thinks there might be a chance with them. So, in essence they are using Andi to try to influence Nick into having sex with more women.

IMO, TPTB WANT Nick to have sex with Raven in order to have more juicy stuff to discuss at ATFR. NOW we can hear all about whether Raven did or did not climax. Sex sells. If Nick had sex with Raven (with Andi's blessing) and then makes Raven F2, this makes him look like a douchebag. TPTB love when the public gets riled up over stuff.  If Nick does not have sex with Raven and then makes Raven F2, well, we've already been talking about it...cuz sex sells. Just by Raven bringing up the topic, TPTB have won - in the form of more talk about the show.

And, there is also the possibility that Raven is well aware that she really does not have a shot at being F1 - either because she is aware of how close he has grown to Vanessa or she is aware of his lack luster feelings towards her or TPTB whispered into her ear that she doesn't really have a shot so she may as well use her remaining time on screen to seek revenge against her cheating ex. That could be her 'purpose' for going through the motions in the next few episodes. Otherwise, she might just want to pack her suitcase and leave. This gives her a reason to stay.

All of this is my speculating about the sick and twisted minds of all involved with this show!

It is a twisted storyline and SO up the alley of tptb. I too believe they knew all along and timed their encouragement of what and when she should reveal.

Honestly, IMO Raven has a problem that goes beyond orgasm failure. Nice enough girl but not copying with her history.  Nick is an intelligent man and looked completely unprepared for the latest instalment of the Hoxie Stiletto Avenger.  
What she will do next is what it is however I don't see Nick having been at all interested in being her human dildo.  He's 36 and just had to deal with the aftermath of Liz, who he sent packing, and Corinne's movie inspired advances as well.  Gone girl.  His track record on the season speaks to delaying sex not being a bobble head to the request of Andi, the woman who wrote about his awkward performance.

If Nick takes ANY advice from Andi it will be a huge mistake. She is nobody that I would ever take advice from. That hotel meeting in NYC was a complete set up.  There was no reason that they even had to be in NYC. Closer than LA to make a flight to Finland, but they fly all around the globe from LA. Unless there was a true reason to be in NYC, it was all about the Andi confrontation. But what was the purpose of the Andi encounter?

At first I thought it was to create drama with a blindside. Knock, knock.Who's there? Oh chit! It's Andi! Yet, I saw no blindside or surprise on Nick's face. Nick had surprise on his face when Raven gave her pre-FS talk, but I saw no surprise when Nick opened that Hotel door to see Andi.

Then I thought that the hotel meeting was to have a kumbaya moment and for Nick and Andi to make nicey nice. Take 2 former adversaries and bring them together. Since they couldn't accomplish a Rogers' family reunion, I guess this would be the next best thing.

But now I'm thinking that we were supposed to believe that it was a kumbaya moment, but it really was more like the serpent in the Garden of Eden. Andi being the serpent. She was there to coerce Nick into feeling like he had the power to captain his own ship, to dip his oars into many waters. Since when does Nick Viall need to be encouraged to have sex???!!! That is the most ridiculous concept to ponder. The guy basically humps anyone who gives him the time of day. IMO. Who really thinks that Nick needed advice on letting his hair down? Nope. Not buying what she/they are selling.

I could just see it behind her eyes, too. IMO. Andi wants Nick to screw up. She doesn't like to see him doing well, being well liked by others, and possibly getting his happily ever after when she is not. She can put on a fake smile and say BS on camera, but I for one do not believe she is capable of actually wishing Nick well. She revels in making others uncomfortable. She will revel in Nick's WTA and ATFR confrontations by the women. She is a bully and a snake. Her mission was to convince Nick that he could sleep with Raven and still be a good guy. I am going to give Nick some credit and say that I do not think he slept with Raven. If he did, then he is a fool. IMO. Any on camera skipping or high fiving nonsense that Raven may do the day after the FD, is all a bunch of BS. In other words, Raven has succeeded in making a mockery of her own self, and the skipping and glowing (if that really is shown) will just be part of her act. IMO

@Miahawk You're swooping in hot tonight.

 IMO Nick is too intelligent and too invested in Vanessa to care to attend to serpentsssssss.  He's not going to screw this up.  
I think you've nailed Andi's MO.

I agree @MiaHawk, I don't really attribute "the message" to Andi, she delivered it, but IMO it was TPTB "wish" (FS sex). IMO, one of the reasons they cast Nick is because they were hoping he would bring his "sex-game" into a play, do some "questionable" move ... they tried with Corinne in the 1st half of the season and when that didn't work they tried with Raven - IMO ... and all he did was being straight with women, honorable and gracious (JMO) and they/TPTB wanted/needed something "to talk about" -IMO- which is why I also believe the edit is so focused on the obstacles between Vanessa and Nick, because Nick didn't deliver anything else to provide for the drama, JMO.

cookielover12 wrote:I really hope Raven doesn't out Nick on ATFR. Esp make him look bad to the viewers and Vanessa...
We can see that she can say anything since she said those things about her ex...

I don't think he was that stupid. But to play "what if" ... If he did it, and has yet to be revealed (although I don't think he would hide it from his fiancee), he would only have himself to blame. Also it would be much worse than his "why did your make love to me?", considering how "detailed" Raven likes to go and tell her stories ... and IF that ever happened, I would like to see the public's response ... would they "dare" to accuse her of "sl*t-shaming" like they branded Nick? ... or when it comes to Nick all is fair?

I feel like this season a lot of BN people have been really "free" to take the digs at Nick, IMO ... IDK if it's because Nick was always good at taking the jabs without complaining (JMO), or because they think he "deserves" it because he is branded "bad boy" ... what I do see though happening is that Nick this time around not only takes the digs, but also returns them subtly to the sender (JMO) ... and I'm with Nick "bring it if you can handle"

After Raven's admission before the FS, she painted herself into a corner. No way IMO will her ego allow her to admit, that nick turned her down, and she didn't get her big O. She'll be skipping and jumping and high fiving so hard, that she'll convince herself that it happened. Also TPBP are full on encouraging her, they want all the sleaze and smut they can get. If Nick actually slept with Raven, he has no one to blame but himself, and he will deserve to get called out. IMO.

Well, supposedly then in all of her previous "experiences" she faked it (if we believe her word) ... that means IMO that she can fake it for 1 "morning after" for the show, then it's only matter of what people individually believe, fake "O" or fake "high five".

happygolucky wrote:Well, supposedly then in all of her previous "experiences" she faked it (if we believe her word) ... that means IMO that she can fake it for 1 "morning after" for the show, then it's only matter of what people individually believe, fake "O" or fake "high five".

I certainly agree that Nick is very stupid if he allows the same set up as before with the ATFR on Andi's season.
From what I have seen of Nick, I have always respected him. I think he has gone out of his way to respect the girls on his season and not lead them on. Raven may be strong - and she certainly is being careful and trying to preserve her feelings - but she is still vulnerable - anyone is on this show in this situation of trying to find "the one." So it is hard for me to believe that Nick is going out of his way to do the opposite with Raven. In the deleted scene - he is happy when she says she is in a good place. He is checking on this with her - he cares. Yes, Raven is young in some ways - tells it like it is - but she is also very grounded with this whole process. She's not accusing N of making stupid decisions, she's not doubting his intentions etc. With Vanessa - he is trying to slow her down a bit. One relationship (with Raven) is getting better and better - and with Vanessa - he is cautioning her (after the 2nd one on one) and she all along has been having doubts and concerns. I admit that this all could be for editing - to hide that Vanessa is the real F1 - and that may be the case. Vanessa seems to be leading - trying to convince, carrying on the enthusiasm. With Raven, Nick is doing the pursuing. Maybe Nick was convinced on night one that V was it, and so he has to drum up another few relationships to get to the end of the show. But if I am going to buy into a legitimate engagement at the end - I sure would like to see less stern talks, less "negotiating, more trust, and some sweet romance !

notarose wrote:It is a twisted storyline and SO up the alley of tptb.    I too believe they knew all along and timed their encouragement of what and when she should reveal.

Honestly, IMO Raven has a problem that goes beyond orgasm failure. Nice enough girl but not copying with her history.  Nick is an intelligent man and looked completely unprepared for the latest instalment of the Hoxie Stiletto Avenger.  
What she will do next is what it is however I don't see Nick having been at all interested in being her human dildo.  He's 36 and just had to deal with the aftermath of Liz, who he sent packing, and Corinne's movie inspired advances as well.  Gone girl.  His track record on the season speaks to delaying sex not being a bobble head to the request of Andi, the woman who wrote about his awkward performance.  

NR... never shies away from telling it like she sees it.
Great comments!!

MiaHawk wrote:If Nick takes ANY advice from Andi it will be a huge mistake. She is nobody that I would ever take advice from. That hotel meeting in NYC was a complete set up.  There was no reason that they even had to be in NYC. Closer than LA to make a flight to Finland, but they fly all around the globe from LA. Unless there was a true reason to be in NYC, it was all about the Andi confrontation. But what was the purpose of the Andi encounter?

At first I thought it was to create drama with a blindside. Knock, knock.Who's there? Oh chit! It's Andi! Yet, I saw no blindside or surprise on Nick's face. Nick had surprise on his face when Raven gave her pre-FS talk, but I saw no surprise when Nick opened that Hotel door to see Andi.

Then I thought that the hotel meeting was to have a kumbaya moment and for Nick and Andi to make nicey nice. Take 2 former adversaries and bring them together. Since they couldn't accomplish a Rogers' family reunion, I guess this would be the next best thing.

But now I'm thinking that we were supposed to believe that it was a kumbaya moment, but it really was more like the serpent in the Garden of Eden. Andi being the serpent. She was there to coerce Nick into feeling like he had the power to captain his own ship, to dip his oars into many waters. Since when does Nick Viall need to be encouraged to have sex???!!! That is the most ridiculous concept to ponder. The guy basically humps anyone who gives him the time of day. IMO. Who really thinks that Nick needed advice on letting his hair down? Nope. Not buying what she/they are selling.

I could just see it behind her eyes, too. IMO. Andi wants Nick to screw up. She doesn't like to see him doing well, being well liked by others, and possibly getting his happily ever after when she is not. She can put on a fake smile and say BS on camera, but I for one do not believe she is capable of actually wishing Nick well. She revels in making others uncomfortable. She will revel in Nick's WTA and ATFR confrontations by the women. She is a bully and a snake. Her mission was to convince Nick that he could sleep with Raven and still be a good guy. I am going to give Nick some credit and say that I do not think he slept with Raven. If he did, then he is a fool. IMO. Any on camera skipping or high fiving nonsense that Raven may do the day after the FD, is all a bunch of BS. In other words, Raven has succeeded in making a mockery of her own self, and the skipping and glowing (if that really is shown) will just be part of her act. IMO

Soooo true Mia.