The Bachelor 20 - Ben Higgins - ATFR - *Sleuthing - Spoilers* #3

aviej wrote:^^ Agreed. I believe that he knew early on that he loved Lauren and so it was easy and safe. With JoJo, the love feelings crept up on him. He didn't expect to feel those feelings, especially given how he felt about Lauren. So, I think on the show his feelings for Lauren may have plateaued, but the feelings for JoJo continued to grow so much so that it APPEARED to be on the same level as with Lauren. I believe however, that if the show lasted for about one month longer that his feelings for JoJo would have surpassed those for Lauren just because they continued to increase over time whereas with Lauren it was a more steady pace throughout. But this is just my opinion.

I see your point and definitely don't always believe the lead post show when they say so & so was always the one. I don't think though that Ben's feelings for Lauren plateaued. I think he just kept thinking to himself that she was too good to be true so in a way was trying to find fault or flaws. I did see a great relationship with JoJo but not a head over heels in love with one. To me, it was more of a deeply respectful, friendship, fun level relationship. That is not to say that Ben didn't have feelings for her or wasn't attracted to her, I just don't think their relationship would have ever been what Ben and Lauren seem to have.

Justafan2 wrote:

aviej wrote:^^ Agreed. I believe that he knew early on that he loved Lauren and so it was easy and safe. With JoJo, the love feelings crept up on him. He didn't expect to feel those feelings, especially given how he felt about Lauren. So, I think on the show his feelings for Lauren may have plateaued, but the feelings for JoJo continued to grow so much so that it APPEARED to be on the same level as with Lauren. I believe however, that if the show lasted for about one month longer that his feelings for JoJo would have surpassed those for Lauren just because they continued to increase over time whereas with Lauren it was a more steady pace throughout. But this is just my opinion.

I see your point and definitely don't always believe the lead post show when they say so & so was always the one. I don't think though that Ben's feelings for Lauren plateaued. I think he just kept thinking to himself that she was too good to be true so in a way was trying to find fault or flaws. I did see a great relationship with JoJo but not a head over heels in love with one. To me, it was more of a deeply respectful, friendship, fun level relationship. That is not to say that Ben didn't have feelings for her or wasn't attracted to her, I just don't think their relationship would have ever been what Ben and Lauren seem to have.

I think I saw in the last date and the final day, that there was a flash of feelings for JoJo, but I think they were dimming. Where as the his feelings for Lauren were steady, strong and he trusted his feelings for her more. Ha I do not really know, but that is what I sensed. Ben cried over every girl he let go. He makes friends easily but that deep, secure love was only for Lauren.

Nothing compares in my opinion to Lauren's dates with Ben. Those were pretty organic and normal dates outside the bachelor bubble. JoJo and Caila's date were always similar to me. They had the OTT physical attraction & fun dates. The only difference was that JoJo was easier to talk to for Ben whereas Caila was confusing towards the end. I don't get where the feelings for JoJo grew because the jump from HTD to FSD where he says ILY is bizarre to me. JMHO. It's like he did a 180 after that week to lead up to the final 2 and his "conflicted" feelings.

aviej wrote:^^ Agreed. I believe that he knew early on that he loved Lauren and so it was easy and safe. With JoJo, the love feelings crept up on him. He didn't expect to feel those feelings, especially given how he felt about Lauren. So, I think on the show his feelings for Lauren may have plateaued, but the feelings for JoJo continued to grow so much so that it APPEARED to be on the same level as with Lauren. I believe however, that if the show lasted for about one month longer that his feelings for JoJo would have surpassed those for Lauren just because they continued to increase over time whereas with Lauren it was a more steady pace throughout. But this is just my opinion.

I feel like it was the opposite of 'easy and safe' though - as he said post-show and in the finale; everything that happened between them continued to validate his feelings but the fact that things were so good and the immediacy of it made him distrust those feelings. So I agree with Justafan2, it wasn't a plateau so much as he had to a) not make the decision to end the show in episode 3 and b) stop being scared of something good, accept that he was 'loveable', etc.

IMO his 'I love you' to JoJo felt so contrived to me. But I appreciate that without the "Ben says 'I love you' to two women" storyline and promotion, there would be no drama to the 20th season of The Bachelor and everyone would have been able to see the ending coming from a mile away. So I understand why the contrivance had to happen.

Justafan2 wrote:I see your point and definitely don't always believe the lead post show when they say so & so was always the one. I don't think though that Ben's feelings for Lauren plateaued. I think he just kept thinking to himself that she was too good to be true so in a way was trying to find fault or flaws. I did see a great relationship with JoJo but not a head over heels in love with one. To me, it was more of a deeply respectful, friendship, fun level relationship. That is not to say that Ben didn't have feelings for her or wasn't attracted to her, I just don't think their relationship would have ever been what Ben and Lauren seem to have.

Which is exactly what Ben has said post finale - that he consistently thought that Lauren was too good to be true. Ben was quoted in the People Magazine article "But with Lauren it was almost too perfect. Everything with her kept getting better than I ever expected, and that was freaking me out. I wasn't used to that."
snip
"Looking back, my expression of love on the show doesn't even halfway compare to how I feel for Lauren now. I knew I could never say goodbye to her. And now I never have to."

source - People Magazine, March 28, 2016

JMHO - but I don't think that's any sort of plateau.

IMO if a relationship is build on 'what if' scenarios, it's never build on any foundation. IMO the scenario that he was going to pick JoJo is built on 'what if Lauren wasn't there..' 'What if the show lasted longer?!' Also IMO Ben and JoJo would've butted heads had the show lasted longer, JoJo would've lost patience in 'competing'. And demanded more than Ben would give her. Jmo of course.

Also IMO Lauren wasn't the safe, but scary, choice. Ben has many times said he feared it was too good to be true, the great, strong connection between himself and Lauren. Jmo.

lightredemption wrote:IMO his 'I love you' to JoJo felt so contrived to me. But I appreciate that without the "Ben says 'I love you' to two women" storyline and promotion, there would be no drama to the 20th season of The Bachelor and everyone would have been able to see the ending coming from a mile away. So I understand why the contrivance had to happen.

It felt contrived to me as well.

IMO Ben is basically a straightforward honest kind of guy who is comfortable with the truth, and uncomfortable with telling a fib even though he may understand the reasons why it would be necessary. He showed that many times when he sent women home early rather than string them along knowing they were definitely not "the one". And most of the time he had eliminations to make anyway so he could pick and choose. But he still had a show formula to follow and an obligation to complete the requirements of his contract to the finish and once he got to F2 he couldn't do an elimination before the FRC. I felt that Ben was under a bit of stress and discomfort with his ILY to JoJo - especially his first one and IMO it was because that (as mentioned in this article) "There were times that I had to fool myself into thinking I was open to other women."

^^^I completely agree! Shoot, my feelings for Lauren have blossomed too post finale so I feel what Ben is saying!!

Seriously, she is just a class act and I have been so impressed with how they have both handled media rounds as well as how they are presenting themselves on SM. Lauren reminds me of Whitney in some ways. Just very well spoken, confident ladies.

soccermom333 wrote:^^^I disagree.  Yes he was attracted to Lauren early on but JoJo really grew on him.  He was conflicted because he fell in love with JoJo too.  It was not a clean ride to the finish line with Ben and Lauren.  JMHO  ;)

*chuckle chuckle* Everybody wants it to be a Clean Ride To The Finish Line.

He was also smitten with Jubilee pre-Mexico City. Sometimes the ones who leave pre-hometowns were initially higher up in the pecking order than, say, F3 or F4 at least. Yet they were "competition" to the other frontrunners, namely F1.

Yeah, he fell for Jo-Jo too and I suspect we could debate if Lauren was... to SOME degree... Miss Reliable in case his Mojo-for-JoJo didn't pan out as planned.

The only struggle I had with Jo-Jo's storyline was his lackluster "concern" about her ex-boyfriend visiting during hometown (when the typical bachelorette would have boo-hooed and fussed about leaving this show "empty handed"). Also, like Caila, there was a slight "stagey" feel to some of her scenes. I am not saying that she wasn't a possible f1 contender.

More importantly, I am getting tired already of Fleiss' new gimmick: showing us The Most Dramatic Moment Of The Season (like Kaitlyn getting "intimate" with Nick and Ben repeating he wuvs Jo-Jo in front of the potty) BEHIND CLOSED DOORS AND WITH SUBTITLES FOR THE HEARING IMPAIRED. They need to try something different next season, because it is increasingly reminding me of this classic Bugs Bunny scene.

I love ben and Lauren too and time will tell but no need to make excuses for what Ben did and said to JoJo. He was clearly attracted to her and told her things he probably should not have. He did and its over and now JoJo gets to pick from 25. ;) He was not acting with JoJo imo. ;)

^ Perfectly said. :cutesmile!: 


Ben and Lauren seem very happy. At different times each of them have said they only want to be married once. I think they will commit to that and will live continue to live a happy life right along with Sean & Catherine and all the others who found their partners on this show. 

JBF wrote:The only struggle I had with Jo-Jo's storyline was his lackluster "concern" about her ex-boyfriend visiting during hometown (when the typical bachelorette would have boo-hooed and fussed about leaving this show "empty handed"). Also, like Caila, there was a slight "stagey" feel to some of her scenes. I am not saying that she wasn't a possible f1 contender.

IMO the entire HTD with JoJo was so staged and fake I laughed out loud. I'd be hard pressed to think of anything TPTB should could have done that they didn't do to make sure that Ben wasn't going to pick JoJo - including the sudden appearance of an ex that wants her back and a family about as gracious as ... well I won't use the analogy I was thinking because it's definitely not PC. Let's just say that H*** would freeze over before I would want them as brothers-in-law. I think the producers would have done anything they could - even above and beyond that fiasco - to make sure Ben wouldn't pick her as F1 - because they wanted her for the next lead. JMHO

JBF wrote:More importantly, I am getting tired already of Fleiss' new gimmick: showing us The Most Dramatic Moment Of The Season (like Kaitlyn getting "intimate" with Nick and Ben repeating he wuvs Jo-Jo in front of the potty) BEHIND CLOSED DOORS AND WITH SUBTITLES FOR THE HEARING IMPAIRED. They need to try something different next season, because it is increasingly reminding me of this classic Bugs Bunny scene.

IMO that's a big clue that what we're seeing isn't real. The bathroom scene still intrigues me because "conventional wisdom" suggests that the bathroom is a place where there are no mics and no filming - for obvious reasons. So either that "urban myth" is completely busted, or it's true in which case what we heard (and saw in subtitles) is B-roll - supplemental footage shot to make a scene look different and more explainable.