The Bachelor 20 - Ben Higgins - NO SPOILERS - Discussion

Ladybug82 wrote:FRC Preview (from WTA) - Part 1

Thanks Ladybug for these post, I am going to change my avi to my new fave Ben. That conversation is so raw and real, this I can't wait to see.

*edited**




I can relate to your saying that maybe to a spoiled viewer your comments might seem pointless. I admit that thought has crossed my mind, too, as I've sat at the keyboard about to type something here. However, I think that all viewpoints and interpretations of this show are important, spoiled or unspoiled. We must remember that this show was created for the viewer, and not just for RS to spoil and blog about. We all have different life experiences and bring them to our commentary. I've learned to be more open-minded from hearing the views of others. So whether you are spoiled or unspoiled, don't discount the power of your words. I might be wrong about the F1, but I'm not wrong about what words and this board can do.

I LOVE your comparison to Ashley and JP. I feel it is spot on. I see a relationship forming between Ben and Jojo that is based on open and honest communication. Sure she's goofy and fun around Ben (and he enjoys that), but we've also seen the 2 of them overcome obstacles together and work through them as a team. This is cementing their relationship. I think that is the story arc for the 2 of them. Overcoming obstacles.

And I do believe that a few of those obstacle have been producer driven. How, for example, could the ex-boyfriend have possibly known that Jojo would be returning to her Dallas apartment on that exact day in order to send her flowers? Red roses, I may add. Another sign that the producers were behind it, IMO. And why would Jojo sit and read a personal note aloud on camera? Who does that? It's because she was given the impressions from the producers that Ben had sent her the roses. They tricked her into reading it, and when she figured out what was really going on, she put a stop to it. She was flustered by receiving the roses from the ex, for sure, but I also think she was smart enough to figure out that she was being manipulated for the creation of drama on this show. So, she did what any person who was reasonable and committed to Ben would do, she called the ex and told him to take a hike. And then she did the right thing and discussed it all with Ben, openly and honestly. And, I don't for a second think that Ben was dumb enough to fall for that trickery either. If you notice, by the time Ben and Jojo stand up fromthe couch in order to go to the parent's home, the vase of roses is no longer on the table behind them. In other words, they were problem thrown in to the garbage.

Which leads me to the next thing I want to talk about: Jojo's brothers. I went back last night to rewatch Lauren's and Jojo's families, and what struck me (again) was how over the top the brothers were throughout that entire portion.  I mean, what kind of a welcome was that when Jojo walked through the doors? Who does that? They swarmed Jojo and acted as if she was the 5th Beatle. They ignored Ben, and so much so that you could see that it made Jojo feel awkward. (Go back and rewatch it if needed) The entire vibe of that welcome screamed 'producer driven' to me. I can only think of 3 reasons why the brothers would have greeted Jojo that way: 1) due to an incestuous relationship (not true), 2) due to clinical insanity (not true) or 3) the producers coached them to be over the top and make for 'great television' (winner, winner, chicken dinner). So, if the producers could get the brothers to act like idiots as they greeted Ben, is it a far stretch to think they also got them to be overly protective, very tough, and verbally skeptical of Ben, too?  I don't think so. We've seen it before where families (often times brothers) are used to create drama on the hometowns. Maybe, just maybe, this was all a part of the master plan of the producers to create a bunch of obstacles for Ben and Jojo to overcome? This is what I think. Of course, JMHOAA.

Thanks, Ladybug for the Scs!

Ok, I think Jojo is F1, so here are my thoughts (paraphrased to the best of my memory):

In the previews for next week (SC is 1st one in Part 2 post, Ben in white shirt, Lauren's hand near Ben's face), you hear Ben say ILY and then you hear and see Lauren say ILY. I, for one, don't believe that Ben said ILY here. You cannot see his lips. I think it was a VO. I trust nothing!!!    Haha!!  

He MAY have said it, like he's said ILY to her in the past, but I do believe that Ben was in the process of letting Lauren down slowly over this LCD. We see her in a PI mentioning her fear that Ben is in love with both of them. Why would she say that after receiving probably the most solid affirmation from him---the ILYs? Did he hint at that? Did he tell her that he loved Jojo as well? If he wanted to choose Jojo, at this point would he really initiate an exchange of ILYs with Lauren? I can see him returning an ILY as a way to say 'I really do care about you" but to initiate an exchange like that? I am skeptical.

To me, the Jojo bathroom floor exchange is the most telling. To me it goes like this:

Jojo and Ben have a conversation (in a different room other than the bathroom) and he confesses to Jojo that he fell in love with Lauren during the process as a way of coming completely clean with her prior to FRC. (Which would be the most commendable thing I think I've ever seen on this show in 20 seasons, IMO).

This information overwhelms Jojo with doubt and fears, and she retreats to the bathroom and slouches to the floor in tears.

Ben then enters the bathroom and joins her on the floor to continue the conversation and to comfort Jojo.

Jojo says "I need something from you" (translation: I am so freaked out and doubting that I will be F1 right now that I need some form of reassurance from you. Otherwise, I am scared out of my mind and will probably puke all over my FRC gown.)

Ben says "I'm sitting on a bathroom floor right now" (translation: I am here WITH YOU. YOU are who I want to marry. YOU are who I am willing to sit on a bathroom floor with. I want to reassure you. I hope that my actions right now are reassuring you. Lauren and I simply sat on a porch step. But for you I am willing to sit on God knows what.)

Ben says "And..." (cut off by Jojo's sobbing)

Ben says "Hey..." (translation: "There, there, Jojo. Please don't cry. I don't want to see you this distraught.)

Ben says "I love you. I'm in love with you." (translation: his attempt at giving her the reassurance that she needs and is asking for)

Jojo says "But you love her, too" (translation: I don't know what to think. I don't know what to feel. You say you love me, yet you've also told Lauren that you love her, too. How am I supposed to know if you love me more? How am I supposed to feel secure? How am I supposed to process this information? Does this mean that I am F2? Does this mean that my worst fear is about to come true---that I will lose you?)

Ben says "Yes" (translation: Honest and direct answer. The beginning of the most important conversation of their lives to this point is about to take place. Ben is a man and steps up to the plate, He is about to fight for the woman he loves and wants to be with.)

SC of Lauren approaching FRC: she looks terrified.
SC of Jojo approaching FRC: she looks nervous. If she STILL had serious doubts AFTER the bathroom floor conversation, don't you think she would look more distraught approaching the FRC? I do. JMHOAA.

In one of the interviews that Ben did he mentioned that ATFR when him and the F1 were alone he told his F1 right away about the situation of being in love with the other one. So if JoJo is F1 she would have know that Ben loved Lauren already so there would be no reason for Ben to say anything about that. But the way TPTB slice and dice everything I don't know what to believe.

Thank you all for the nice welcomes  :cutesmile!:

I can see either of these women ending up with Ben and being happy but it got me wondering why so many say Lauren had the strongest connection with him from the beginning.  I remember the date when he took JoJo up to the roof at the end of the night and gave her the first date rose.  I think it was then I thought "she is the one for him".  Along the way there have been many moments they have shared that show reciprocation of love on both sides.  If JoJo is not F1 then it has to be because we were not shown many of the true interactions between him and Lauren.  Yes they kiss and gaze at each other but I do not see the "chemistry pull" that he and JoJo have.  It is like they can't stay out of each others space - that is the exciting part of new love.  Along with chemistry should be the ability to talk things through, understand, support and communicate well.  We have seen all of this with JoJo but from what I recall not much with Lauren.  They have shared physical experiences: playing with kids, letting turtles loose, etc....  but I am trying to recall any serious conversations between the two of them.

I too think the JoJo's HTD was producer driven and over the top.  Whether it was to put viewers in the Lauren camp or to throw us off from believing he would pick JoJo I am not sure.  However, all that they have shown since the hometown date was a stronger connection between the two of them.  Ben said he was worried JoJo was going to break his heart after her brothers warned her to hold back.  If he was that scared off by the family why would he care where JoJo stood with him.  IMO he would be sending her home if her family was that unbearable.  I think he said it well (and another sign that they have in depth conversations) when he mentioned JoJo told him they would have difficult questions for him and he was more guarded because of that.

I can relate to JoJo's personality so I want Ben to pick her, but I believe he has taken this experience very seriously, opened himself up like no other and in the end if it helped him to find his one true love then that is all that matters.  For all I know, he will pick Lauren, get down on one knee and say all sorts of wonderful things (cry) and then they will show us all these sweet sincere clips/moments of them at the end of the finale or at the ATFR and it will leave me wondering why I ever thought he belonged with JoJo (probably not, but I can hope that is how I will feel if he doesn't pick JoJo )

I am still trying to get my head around the fact that JoJo's date occured before Lauren's because that does change some things for me . . . . good, bad, and indifferent.

Ok, one last post then I have to get away from this board  . . . it is adddicting!!

During Ben and JoJo's date at the waterfall:

JoJo: Can you believe we are here?
Ben:  Yes
JoJo: I can't
Ben: You doubted it, I knew we'd be here

I am leaving it at that until next week . . . (or tomorrow if I can't stay away )

locoforbach wrote:Ok, one last post then I have to get away from this board  . . . it is adddicting!!

During Ben and JoJo's date at the waterfall:

JoJo: Can you believe we are here?
Ben:  Yes
JoJo: I can't
Ben: You doubted it, I knew we'd be here

I am leaving it at that until next week . . . (or tomorrow if I can't stay away )

Loco, you are channeling my thoughts exactly!

Maggenzm wrote:Thanks Ladybug for these post, I am going to change my avi to my new fave Ben. That conversation is so raw and real, this I can't wait to see.

Your welcome!  Sorry about not bringing them over earlier!  

Y'all are welcome to use the SC's as you want/need - for sleuthing, as avies, siggies, etc.  

I love reading this thread.  The posts are thoughtful, insightful and very well contemplated.  The best thing about being unspoiled is it allows you to really use your intuition and imagination.  Like reading a book allows the reader to visualize the characters how they imagine them vs watching a movie where everything is laid out in front of you for the viewer to passively take in.  Thanks everyone for the most interesting posts on the forum.

With less than one week to go before the finale, I was wondering if the board could do a survey of UNSPOILED members of who they think will be F1? Would that be possible?

MiaHawk wrote:With less than one week to go before the finale, I was wondering if the board could do a survey of UNSPOILED members of who they think will be F1? Would that be possible?

Great idea! Being spoiled I agree with Seabear that reading this thread is fascinating. As long as I'm here MiaHawk I love your comments in this thread. :Woah-hoo: I appreciate many others too but remember you from other seasons and am always interested to hear your perspective.

MiaHawk wrote:With less than one week to go before the finale, I was wondering if the board could do a survey of UNSPOILED members of who they think will be F1? Would that be possible?

I think that's a great idea. I wish we would have had the same option for the spoiled side too. It would have been interesting to see where everyone stood despite the spoiler.