Bachelor In Paradise - Season 2 - Episode Discussions - #3 *Sleuthing - Spoilers*

stillhoping wrote:As for sex.....Carly was very flippant about Ashley I's virginity

Carly said only thing to do was drink, have sex

Carly threw herself at him - 1st "fantasy suite"

Realistically - they had a lot more time together than on a regular show...yet on bach and ette there is often sex...look @ Claire and JP

Carly herself said he was not quite where she was but she would pull him along or?? It backfired. The baby talk was final straw IMHO

Are we forgetting the usual premise - 3 fantasy suite ...1 hurt

final RC...1 hurt

Kirk could have pulled a bach move - dump her after the show?
Might have been worse...she was pickin out the china pattern IMHO

That's actually not true - Carly said on periscope that they had sex way before they went on that first date/FS. RS said that weeks ago, so it must have been widely known that Kirk and Carly starting sleeping together during the first couple of days. I'm guessing the whole "Kirk has hesitations about sleeping with Carly" was just a producer-initiated "scene" that they acted out.

Sprite wrote:

GuardianAngel wrote:Nice recap sbolduc.

IMO the only difference between Tenley breaking up with Joshua, and Kirk breaking up with Carly, is Joshua was listening. She was being realistic, told him how she felt about him, and the good that came out of the relationship. He must have known distance was an issue, since they were whispering in the forest on that topic. Kirk never had a chance to explain anything since Carly's solution is to run. I found it interesting that she contacted him to discuss what they were going to talk about, and he didn't return her call.  

Re Jared - From what I've been told, he went right back to work after filming the 'ette. He has been very popular and was approached/told very early on about going on BIP. It's not Jared that's seeking out fame, it's TPTB that were after him.

Who was the male caller that called in before they brought Kirk out and what did he say? They were flashing tornado warnings with loud beeping sounds during AP. Strange, I have no idea where it was located.

GA my ears perked up at that as well. She wanted to talk about what they were going to say on the show...get their story straight? Shades of irony since that sounds very similar to what Samantha was trying to do with Joe. I am beginning to see why she is still single. She bolts at the first sign of conflict and doesn't want to discuss problems. Hard to have a relationship with that mentality since there is no such thing as a perfect, conflict free relationship.

But wouldn't her bolting have been justified considering how things ended up? Would've saved her the humiliation of being strung along and then dumped on national television. Kirk took away her option of doing that by telling her what she wants to hear instead of what he really felt. What I mean is that had Kirk told her he was having hesitations and she would've removed herself out of the relationship, he would've been free to date other people and she would've avoided the heartbreak and humiliation. But apparently it was more important that Kirk had the time to make absolutely sure he doesn't want Carly and it was okay for him to BS his way through it. And I do think it's BS'ing to say you're so excited to meet someone's family when you dump them the next morning. I think Carly's right to protect her heart trumps Kirk's right to leave no stone unturned, but that's just my opinion.

How do we justify the regular show then? The "lead" explores all options

Yes they had sex...Carly was not a virgin. They are adults

I think Carly loved being a couple, no worry about roses..she gloated a lot unlike Jade and Tanner...so "freaking" secure

With all of them often no easy answer. It is a pretty unreal situation

stillhoping wrote:How do we justify the regular show then? The "lead" explores all options

Yes they had sex...Carly was not a virgin. They are adults

I think Carly loved being a couple, no worry about roses..she gloated a lot unlike Jade and Tanner...so "freaking" secure

With all of them often no easy answer. It is a pretty unreal situation

I don't think it can be justified really, but that's what people sign up for. Kirk wasn't the lead however, so he has no excuse for stringing someone along. There are no rules in Paradise that tell you to do that.

I think Carly might've accepted the apology, perhaps, had he stopped at the apology. But then he went on to blame his inability to express himself on what she'd said about running at the sing of red flags. He probably thought that was a valid explanation, but it just came off as avoiding responsibility. It's not okay to lie because you're scared of what happens if you tell the truth. It just makes you a coward. Cowardly men are so unattractive to me. He strikes me as one of those guys who, if you end up marrying him, comes home with divorce papers one day after what you thought was 10 years of being happily married and tells you he's been going through the motions for the past year. Okay, that might be mean, but I get why Carly wasn't that gracious. His whole problem was telling her what he thought she wanted to hear and I feel like he kept doing that last night and she probably had a déjà vu. He also said last night that even though he was just out of relationship he was definitely ready for a new one in Paradise, which was contradictory to what he said during the show and the breakup. He himself said he was expecting it to be like summer camp for adults with a summer fling and that's it. He wasn't looking for anything serious really, so he was lying again last night. She clearly picked up on that, you could tell by her face.

The way I saw it Carly ran away from the breakup talk because she didn't want to ugly-cry on national TV more than she had to. I think she was mortified and shocked and didn't have it in her to keep her composure for a conversation with Kirk, and I don't think she owed him that either just so he could go home not feeling like the bad guy.

I really did not like how Kirk kept running after her, not taking no for an answer when she told him over and over that she didn't want to talk to him. I was hoping he would have apologized for that on After Paradise but he didn't. I think he also played the victim a little bit too like, "That was the worst breakup of my life!" Reminded me a little of Samantha.

But I also think he does seem like a good decent person in general, just handled a tough situation poorly. I just see where Carly's coming from and think she was totally justified in how upset she was, and I think she handled the breakup and After Paradise as well as she could be expected to.

Sprite wrote:

GuardianAngel wrote:Nice recap sbolduc.

IMO the only difference between Tenley breaking up with Joshua, and Kirk breaking up with Carly, is Joshua was listening. She was being realistic, told him how she felt about him, and the good that came out of the relationship. He must have known distance was an issue, since they were whispering in the forest on that topic. Kirk never had a chance to explain anything since Carly's solution is to run. I found it interesting that she contacted him to discuss what they were going to talk about, and he didn't return her call.  

Re Jared - From what I've been told, he went right back to work after filming the 'ette. He has been very popular and was approached/told very early on about going on BIP. It's not Jared that's seeking out fame, it's TPTB that were after him.

Who was the male caller that called in before they brought Kirk out and what did he say? They were flashing tornado warnings with loud beeping sounds during AP. Strange, I have no idea where it was located.

GA my ears perked up at that as well. She wanted to talk about what they were going to say on the show...get their story straight? Shades of irony since that sounds very similar to what Samantha was trying to do with Joe. I am beginning to see why she is still single. She bolts at the first sign of conflict and doesn't want to discuss problems. Hard to have a relationship with that mentality since there is no such thing as a perfect, conflict free relationship.

I could see on part-time farmer's season why Carly is nearly 30 and still single. Carly's ITMs were very telling of her insecurities, relationship immaturity and desire to be part of the cool kid group. She was openly jealous of Britt's beauty and was gloating that Britt was hurt when Chris sent her home. She chose appearing on BIP over attending her brother's wedding. Things that make you go hmmm...

Carly knew that Kirk had recently ended a relationship, but he was hopeful he was ready to move on. He only pursued Carly. He took her fishing as a way for both of them to see if they would "fit" in the real world. Carly was clearly ok with being intimate from day one. Carly told him that she runs at a sign of conflict - she admitted this. He tried to keep things on an even keel and kept working on their relationship. I don't see why Kirk is a bad guy for ending things with Carly when he did. It was far less humiliating than taking her to the final rose ceremony where she would be expecting a Neil Lane ring. IMHO.

I think they are both to blame. I don't blame one more than the other. She jumped in all guns blazing and didn't really pay attention to Kirk when he expressed some hesitation. He wasn't really clear and didn't speak up immediately when she started making plans that he was uncomfortable with. He let it go on too long and she wouldn't listen when he tried to explain. Both their communication skills sucks.

Both of them seemed to have reached some kind of understanding post show since they have hung out together. Hopefully they have both learned what not to do in their next relationship.

I am happy for Janner, esp. for Jade...
 She deserves the happiness and a man who loves her as who she is, great she found Tanner.

The proposal was so heartfelt and I got teary eyes.
 Hope they live happily ever after.

GuardianAngel wrote:Nice recap sbolduc.

IMO the only difference between Tenley breaking up with Joshua, and Kirk breaking up with Carly, is Joshua was listening. She was being realistic, told him how she felt about him, and the good that came out of the relationship. He must have known distance was an issue, since they were whispering in the forest on that topic. Kirk never had a chance to explain anything since Carly's solution is to run. I found it interesting that she contacted him to discuss what they were going to talk about, and he didn't return her call.  

Re Jared - From what I've been told, he went right back to work after filming the 'ette. He has been very popular and was approached/told very early on about going on BIP. It's not Jared that's seeking out fame, it's TPTB that were after him.

Yeah... I didn't like Carly's performance while Kirk started his breakup speech. She abruptly went into "I hate you and don't want to look at you" mode and refused to listen to him. Not that I support what Kirk was doing (and stated earlier that he should have tried at least a friendship post-show with her), but her rage was too over the top like a Prima Donna Hear Me Roar.

Now... on After Paradise, I found myself siding more with her than him because he had more time to collect some thoughts and talked a little too much like a rehearsed lawyer. One thing I found peculiar... and amusing... is BOTH Carly and Juelia using Kirk and Joe as "an example for bad behavior in guys". These two ladies have real axes to grind, either because of bad past experiences or because They Just Don't Like Men (except for sex) And Think They Are All Pigs. I do understand a little with those two: Kirk and Joe were both Poker Faces who were too-too selective in their words of apology and didn't sound particularly sincere.

Also the "red flags" talk of Kirk's sounded ssssoooooo stupid and "cop out"-ish to me, much like Dan using "red flags" to break up with Ashley S. Did the guys all practice their break up speeches together? It was swift of Carly to mention she didn't want kids "tomorrow" just "maybe in a couple years". I think most viewers could plainly see that Kirk would rather be committed to a gym membership than to a woman.

Earlier in the season, Kirky almost had me in his corner in that fantasy suite episode when he said he had been through a recent breakup and was not sure about sex with Carly yet. Yeah... riiiiiiight. What he meant to say was "I don't mind the sex at all since it beats chokin' the chicken alone, but what if she wants to pin me down like the previous one I had to run away from?"

Regarding Jared being "wanted" by Fleiss and not the other way around, that is MOST interesting. In the closing credits, we are told he is still not over Kaitlyn ( ) and Ashley is not over him ( ). I think it is all just an act. Jared probably doesn't want to date anybody right now, Ashley or Kaitlyn. Those rose petal make out sessions with Kait had little "heat". I can only imagine what did NOT happen with Ash.

On another note...

I hope Nick and Sam succeed as a couple. At least Sam can get a few extra pairs of shoes out of the deal since Jaclyn is still angry about Nick winning the final season of Bachelor Pad.

Im reading RS's Column right now and he actually makes some good points that make me think i was a bit too harsh on Kirk. He talked about people usually don't break up at the first sign of doubts; you take the time for to see if your feelings become more concrete either way and process your emotions internally. I get that and it makes sense that Kirk took a week to go from "oh, crap, I'm not on the same page when she talked about babies. What goes that mean" to "this relationship needs to end". RS also talked about how if he had really left her alone and just left Mexico like she had asked, people would have thought he was even more of a jerk because he wasn't even trying to confront the girl who was crazy about him. I agree, we would have all called him a jerk. It was a lose-lose situation. RS also drew a parallel to his own personal romantic life. 

Also interesting: 

Hell, maybe Kirk and Tenley both went on the show with zero intentions of ever meeting anyone and they just stayed til the end because they wanted to and they both played all of us. Very possible. I’m pretty sure that was Tenley’s goal in all this. Kirk I’m not so sure. I believe Kirk liked Carly and fell for her. Don’t think he played her at all and this was some grand scheme. However the way he went about it was his biggest mistake. But Tenley? She knew what she was doing. She was never going to be with Joshua post show, and played it out as long as she could to stay on the show.

Sprite wrote:I think they are both to blame. I don't blame one more than the other. She jumped in all guns blazing and didn't really pay attention to Kirk when he expressed some hesitation. He wasn't really clear and didn't speak up immediately when she started making plans that he was uncomfortable with. He let it go on too long and she wouldn't listen when he tried to explain. Both their communication skills sucks.

Both of them seemed to have reached some kind of understanding post show since they have hung out together. Hopefully they have both learned what not to do in their next relationship.

I agree! While both made mistakes, I thought it was fairly obvious that Kirk was just not "all in" and was really giving it his best shot. I do think he had feelings but just not strong enough. It was truly unfortunate that Kirk said he would go to her brother's reception and then dump her next day. BUT ... this is a crazy, intense experience and people tend to not always make the wisest decisions.

When all is said and done, I ended the season liking Kirk better than Carly and think that Kirk would have done better with Tenley.

On a much HAPPIER note ... IMO when Tanner told Jade he loved her in the Fantasy Suite, it was one of the most genuine "I Love You's" (if not THE most genuine) that I've ever seen in this franchise. He was so confident and calm and looked her in the eye when saying it. His voice was strong - no wavering, no looking side ways ... he did not even look nervous, just sure of his feelings. It was really something to watch and her sweet response and smile was precious! I am totally loving this match up!!