Nick Viall - Bachelorette 11 - *Spoilers - Sleuthing* - Discussion #5

Alanna wrote:

AllAboutLove wrote:Last year's lead didn't work out with her type and if this year's lead doesn't marry her type then I guess maybe the women are the ones who are not realizing that Nick is the type of person they should choose. TWT. jmo

Attraction just doesn't work like that though. They're attracted to something else. I don't know how they can change that, barring therapy or something. Jmo.

Both were/are attracted to Nick so attraction is not the issue, imo, commitment is.

SO many things are involved in relationships and why they work and why they don't. Physical attraction is just one element. 
As far as commitment, imo, that is a whole other thing.

AllAboutLove wrote:Last year's lead didn't work out with her type and if this year's lead doesn't marry her type then I guess maybe the women are the ones who are not realizing that Nick is the type of person they should choose. TWT. jmo

IMO the fact that someone's type didn't work out doesn't mean that Nick is the solution to that problem and the type they need.

Lucas15 wrote:

AllAboutLove wrote:Last year's lead didn't work out with her type and if this year's lead doesn't marry her type then I guess maybe the women are the ones who are not realizing that Nick is the type of person they should choose. TWT. jmo

IMO the fact that someone's type didn't work out doesn't mean that Nick is the solution to that problem and the type they need.

IA that Nick is not the solution to the problem just that the type of person he is -- broadly meaning not the typical guy they choose to commit to (temporarily) -- may be better for them longterm/marriage. jmo

Alanna wrote:For whatever reason, Nick is attracted to women who are looking for a strong, protective man in the classic Jane Austen way. Not sure why he's so into these women but he doesn't fit their desires so things don't work out. Jmo.

AllAboutLove wrote:

Alanna wrote:

AllAboutLove wrote:Last year's lead didn't work out with her type and if this year's lead doesn't marry her type then I guess maybe the women are the ones who are not realizing that Nick is the type of person they should choose. TWT. jmo

Attraction just doesn't work like that though. They're attracted to something else. I don't know how they can change that, barring therapy or something. Jmo.

Both were/are attracted to Nick so attraction is not the issue, imo, commitment is.

But these woman were both attracted to him, at least enough to have sex with him. I think both reverted to their normal type when choosing their F1. It failed last year and sadly, I expect it to fail this year too, but will be happy to be wrong.

When we continually pick the type that has not worked for us we are just repeating our mistake. I personally think with people who don't find their life mate young that it is a system of us learning to balance our attraction with finding out what we really need. To me Des is a perfect example of this, her normal was the drama and butterflies of Brooks, but what she needed was Chris. Her season you could see her body language was always so calm and happy with Chris. It was like her subconscious was screaming to her, this one, not that one. I love her and Chris now and really feel that Brooks leaving was the greatest gift this series gave to Des.

As for Andi and Kaitlyn I hope they get smart enough to stop making the same mistakes. Isn't the greatest sign of foolishness to repeat the same action expecting a different outcome?

I don't necessarily think Nick was the solution for either of these women, though I personally found Andi much more likeable when she was around Nick. He seemed to calm some of her annoying MeAndi traits, IMO. I don't think Nick is the right person for Kaitlyn. She is a very live in the moment and Nick is trying to be for her, but I think in the end they would have just got to the point of grating on each others nerves.

I do think Nick thinks he wants a very strong assertive woman, but he is also mistaking aggression and self involvement for strength. He himself needs to learn to spot this difference. I hope he does outside of this show, though the fan girl in me would still love to see him and Whitney grow a friendship and realize that they are a great match.

I believe Nick is attracted to personalities - character traits - that he believes he's lacking of or he believes he needs in order to "help him get out his shell". I get the perception that most believe that Nick is super-confident guy, very open (and honest, if you can accept that) and decisive ... but I actually doubt that is him in his daily, normal life, when it comes to women. IMO:

There's so much of his confidence that he wants to project, but really doesn't have a solid ground. His open-honesty, there's only so much he lets people see of himself, because there's another part of him he doesn't see as "attractive" to share and I view him as trying to get that part to change/improve. He wants to be a better version of himself ... and he is trying, searching for a woman who would bring that "out of him". Also it's in his nature to be longer "indecisive" ... since as a Libra he needs to weight all his options and play with all the scenarios in his head before making a decision, which may drive others crazy and therefore he often showcases (especially on this show) giving the decision power to the woman, making her decide first. If their choices are in-line ...great, no problems, but if there's something out of his "comfort" or doesn't agree with, I would guess he doesn't always expresses that in the best way or at all... until much later, when it's "too late" and as it's been discussed before in some thread, his passive-aggressive side might cause unintentional hurt.

He looks for a courageous woman, blunt (or what she want others to believe), energetic and fun-loving ... things that maybe have more to do with how Nick views himself (lacking of / and not how we might perceive him).
And most of all he looks for the challenge. It's almost like it's not worth it for him to pursue if it isn't "difficult" enough for him. It's the whole allure to the relationship ... overcome the problems, uncover the truth, find the understanding of the mystery of the woman, exceed the expectations and surprise with the never-ending creativity.
Nick gets easily bored, he perceives himself as a boring person, so that's one of the challenges for him, to boost the interest, make own life an adventure, full of emotions, so that there is no room for phlegm.
He wants a romance ...and he looks for a good-natured woman, who is affectionate and unassuming, seductive (as much as him) and sensible ...

and I sense the problem lies in that he was looking all of that in emotionally needy women, who are just as selfish, demanding, irritable and excessive as him and who are looking for different kind of traits that can "help them" feel better about themselves. For some reason Kaitlyn and Andi didn't see that in Nick and I actually agree with them.

happygolucky wrote:I believe Nick is attracted to personalities - character traits - that he believes he's lacking of or he believes he needs in order to "help him get out his shell". I get the perception that most believe that Nick is super-confident guy, very open (and honest, if you can accept that) and decisive ... but I actually doubt that is him in his daily, normal life, when it comes to women. IMO:

HGL this is one of the more fascinating posts about Nick that I've ever read and it gives me the ability to understand him - in my own terms - far better that ever before.

IMO we are all governed both by things we've learned and instincts we are born with - the instincts are the genetic inheritance from eons of natural selection; we all instinctively seek the strongest DNA in a mate so that our offspring have the greatest chance of survival. In most species the strongest DNA is in the alpha (both male and female). IMO Nick is drawn to strong assertive women because those are (at least some of) the characteristics of an alpha female and that is a good genetic pairing with Nick because he (sorry Nick chicks - I have to call it as I see it) is not alpha himself and that's apparent to me in just about all of his body language and also in many of his actions. The female alpha characteristics he seeks counterbalance what he (consciously or subconsciously / instinctively) lacks.

Unfortunately, the alpha females he's attracted to are also governed by the same instincts - instinctively seeking the strongest male DNA for their offspring and natural selection has put that in the alpha male. Instinctively Nick chases an alpha female but the alpha female chases an alpha male. Nick is initially attractive to a woman because he's easier to relate to - he's more like they are. An alpha male is harder to understand because he's different and sometimes rough around the edges; he'll talk about "banging two other guys" or joke about "Eskimo brothers". But when it comes down to choosing a mate, an alpha female will instinctively choose an alpha male.
JMHO

Lucas15 wrote:

happygolucky wrote:I believe Nick is attracted to personalities - character traits - that he believes he's lacking of or he believes he needs in order to "help him get out his shell". I get the perception that most believe that Nick is super-confident guy, very open (and honest, if you can accept that) and decisive ... but I actually doubt that is him in his daily, normal life, when it comes to women. IMO:

HGL this is one of the more fascinating posts about Nick that I've ever read and it gives me the ability to understand him - in my own terms - far better that ever before.

IMO we are all governed both by things we've learned and instincts we are born with - the instincts are the genetic inheritance from eons of natural selection; we all instinctively seek the strongest DNA in a mate so that our offspring have the greatest chance of survival. In most species the strongest DNA is in the alpha (both male and female). IMO Nick is drawn to strong assertive women because those are (at least some of) the characteristics of an alpha female and that is a good genetic pairing with Nick because he (sorry Nick chicks - I have to call it as I see it) is not alpha himself and that's apparent to me in just about all of his body language and also in many of his actions. The female alpha characteristics he seeks counterbalance what he (consciously or subconsciously / instinctively) lacks.

Unfortunately, the alpha females he's attracted to are also governed by the same instincts - instinctively seeking the strongest male DNA for their offspring and natural selection has put that in the alpha male. Instinctively Nick chases an alpha female but the alpha female chases an alpha male. Nick is initially attractive to a woman because he's easier to relate to - he's more like they are. An alpha male is harder to understand because he's different and sometimes rough around the edges; he'll talk about "banging two other guys" or joke about "Eskimo brothers". But when it comes down to choosing a mate, an alpha female will instinctively choose an alpha male.
JMHO

Actually quite a few of the true alpha females that I know end up with less than alpha men. Two alpha personalities in one relationship is often hard to manage. Then again I would never describe Kaitlyn as an alpha female, she screams love me take care of me and I will put you first. As for Andi as an alpha, perhaps maybe once upon a time. Now I think fame whore has over come all other traits. And of note Andi and her alpha, just like all her past alphas, butted heads and didn't last.

I tend to believe in more of a yin and yang type balance. But then again that is why most of these relationships never last. They never get past initial attraction to the deeper to find the deeper lasting balance. Look at our two successful bachelor couples. Sean found his balance in the spunky, funky and adorable Catherine. The last woman on paper he should have worked with. Even Jason and Molly, from all accounts she is the alpha or boss. Probably why she and Jason both had crushes on Josh last season.

So I guess I think that the true alpha female often finds a more giving man as her true mate. And I actually think that is one reason why Kaitlyn and Shawn might make it. He is the alpha and she is the more giving supportive. We have seen it in all the confrontations except the last, she gives and gives, until it is really important to her, but when it was he was smart enough to now to give a little too.

Lucas, I completely agree with you on this. I do believe that him being a Libra, ruled by Venus, has a lot to do with him being in-touch with the feminine side... So it goes along with Lucas' post above, ITA with, why women are initially attracted to him and feel like they understand him, which gives them sense of comfort and security, but for those "strong-headed" women eventually he falls short. On the scale for the comparison, Shawn appears much more confident guy than Nick, believing he is right and fine just the way he is, no need to change, while Nick is still open to "improvement"/growing. -JMO
Also, I would guess Nick should give a chance to a mature, more "grown-up" but still fun-loving woman, who may not be all "alpha", but feminine and courageous just the same. Maybe on the first glance she might appear too serious for his already serious self, but I believe he will find his challenge in someone he will not "get on the first ball".

Stuck... I agree with you too... Especially about alpha women coupling with non alpha men and making it a great match, odd maybe to the rest, often criticised by others, but internally a good combination that defies time. I've seen some great examples in my family. It just proves that in love there are no rules... And even if there are, there are always exceptions. Just better not believe you're one of them. Or believe, because a lot is up to us.

stuckinsc wrote:

Lucas15 wrote:

happygolucky wrote:I believe Nick is attracted to personalities - character traits - that he believes he's lacking of or he believes he needs in order to "help him get out his shell". I get the perception that most believe that Nick is super-confident guy, very open (and honest, if you can accept that) and decisive ... but I actually doubt that is him in his daily, normal life, when it comes to women. IMO:

HGL this is one of the more fascinating posts about Nick that I've ever read and it gives me the ability to understand him - in my own terms - far better that ever before.

IMO we are all governed both by things we've learned and instincts we are born with - the instincts are the genetic inheritance from eons of natural selection; we all instinctively seek the strongest DNA in a mate so that our offspring have the greatest chance of survival. In most species the strongest DNA is in the alpha (both male and female). IMO Nick is drawn to strong assertive women because those are (at least some of) the characteristics of an alpha female and that is a good genetic pairing with Nick because he (sorry Nick chicks - I have to call it as I see it) is not alpha himself and that's apparent to me in just about all of his body language and also in many of his actions. The female alpha characteristics he seeks counterbalance what he (consciously or subconsciously / instinctively) lacks.

Unfortunately, the alpha females he's attracted to are also governed by the same instincts - instinctively seeking the strongest male DNA for their offspring and natural selection has put that in the alpha male. Instinctively Nick chases an alpha female but the alpha female chases an alpha male. Nick is initially attractive to a woman because he's easier to relate to - he's more like they are. An alpha male is harder to understand because he's different and sometimes rough around the edges; he'll talk about "banging two other guys" or joke about "Eskimo brothers". But when it comes down to choosing a mate, an alpha female will instinctively choose an alpha male.
JMHO

Actually quite a few of the true alpha females that I know end up with less than alpha men. Two alpha personalities in one relationship is often hard to manage. Then again I would never describe Kaitlyn as an alpha female, she screams love me take care of me and I will put you first. As for Andi as an alpha, perhaps maybe once upon a time. Now I think fame whore has over come all other traits. And of note Andi and her alpha, just like all her past alphas, butted heads and didn't last.

I tend to believe in more of a yin and yang type balance. But then again that is why most of these relationships never last. They never get past initial attraction to the deeper to find the deeper lasting balance. Look at our two successful bachelor couples. Sean found his balance in the spunky, funky and adorable Catherine. The last woman on paper he should have worked with. Even Jason and Molly, from all accounts she is the alpha or boss. Probably why she and Jason both had crushes on Josh last season.

So I guess I think that the true alpha female often finds a more giving man as her true mate. And I actually think that is one reason why Kaitlyn and Shawn might make it. He is the alpha and she is the more giving supportive. We have seen it in all the confrontations except the last, she gives and gives, until it is really important to her, but when it was he was smart enough to now to give a little too.

Stuck, IA. And this has been my experience. I'm an alpha female and was very attracted to alpha males until I hooked up with my husband. I learned to appreciate someone who could calm me, make me laugh, laugh at me, not reve me up. Very different interactions... SOOOOO glad I let go of the macho in favor of my sensitive, perceptive, funny, sexy guy. Wouldn't trade him for the world.

Kait screams love me, take care of me, to me too. She's strong when she needs to be, even with Shawn, but I don't think she prefers it. She's said multiple times that she doesn't want to continue having these conversations with him and just wants to hang out and play, and essentially wants him to prove he's strong enough to take care of her and them together.

I don't think Nick is looking for that and Kait senses it. She's such a girl in the stereotypical sense with Shawn and such a buddy with Nick.

Jmo.

IMO, I don't see K as a buddy with Nick, I see her that way with Dr C, but not Nick. Their sexual chemistry she said was instant and pre-FS coitus is proof of that.

I actually see all sides of Kaitlyn with Nick: sexy, fun, dirty jokes, candid, etc... - especially the Kaitlyn that is fun and tomboyish - who she is in real life - not the girl wearing sequined dresses.

I like that Kaitlyn can be her true self with Nick. The person she is day to day. Because that is the person one is married to long after the romantic stage is over.