Nick Viall - Bachelorette 11 - *Spoilers - Sleuthing* - Discussion #5

Max64 wrote:I just can't seem to wrap my head around the fact that K had a date with Shawn, told him he was the one, next week had a date with N, had sex with him, cries and whines that she's remorseful about it but yet still keeps N only to have sex with him again in the FS, takes him to f2 only to let him propose to then be rejected, and then gets engaged to Shawn.  And Nick was her friend prior to filming?   Great way to treat your friends.

If K felt so horrible about having sex with N and that it was a mistake, why keep him?  Quite honestly, how could Shawn really trust Kaitlyn after all that.  I know she doesn't owe him anything, but getting wrapped up in the moment and having sex once, understandable given the circumstances, but to continue with it..that would be a tough one for anyone to choke down.

It doesn't make sense to me either. If Kaitlyn was so distraught over having sex with Nick, then why did she do it again? Why keep him around if Shawn was the one? There's gotta be more to the story.

Lucas15 wrote:

chasingpavements wrote:I guess I'm in the minority, because I never felt like she had real feelings for Jared. I feel like she thinks he's hot and sweet and he probably strokes her ego a bit since he seems to really be into her (especially according to RS's BIP tease about him), but that's about it. I don't think she ever looks at him and goes "I might end up with this guy" and I don't think she has that raw, sexual chemistry that she does with both Shawn and Nick. When the Nick sex happened, it seemed obvious to me that she was really only worried about Shawn's reaction. He seems to be the Chris Lambton of the season to me. I felt like him getting the group rose and the 1-on-1 in Ireland next week was just the producers trying to make it seem like there are other contenders in the game. I am a bit surprised that he didn't make it to F3, but I'm thinking that either he finds out about Nick and Shawn off-camera time and leaves after a fight with Kaitlyn or the producers interfered, and told her to bring Ben because he's more Bachelor material.

As far as Kaitlyn/Shawn go, I don't know. I actually do think that their chances are higher than Kaitlyn/Nick would be, because I think K/N they are such opposites, it allows for amazing chemistry immediately but not a lot of common interests to last in the long-term. Shawn/Kaitlyn actually remind me a bit of Ali/Roberto (opposite energies, but seem to balance each other out). However, I feel like Shawn and Kaitlyn are both very passionate and impulsive, and I don't know if that will work for the long-term.

^^^ This. AT LEAST 99% of it - especially what I highlighted.

IMO the thing that dooms any chances with Kaitlyn for Nick - or anybody else not named Shawn Booth - is that Kaitlyn set her sights on Shawn the first time she met him. Kaitlyn has been as singularly focused on Shawn as Des was on Brooks (or perhaps Ashley was on JP) and IMO if she can't have Shawn she will walk away single - there's no backup option she is remotely interested in. For Kaitlyn IMHO it was Shawn or nobody. The only thing that may work out for her is that Shawn just may feel as strongly about her as she does about him. I don't know that this is necessarily a bad thing.
IMHO

^^ makes so much sense! Esp as in her ITM in Nick's date, she said that she was hoping that it wasn't going to be this good so that it'd be easier.
She had her heart set on Shawn and Nick threw a wrench into things. I think that Nick was a temptation to her and her impulsive and 'in the moment' nature let her go there with Nick twice.

Re: Nick & K being friends -- I don't think so. I think Nick is just a good guy, and the fact that they liked each other made them 'close' and 'friends'.

Max64 wrote:I just can't seem to wrap my head around the fact that K had a date with Shawn, told him he was the one, next week had a date with N, had sex with him, cries and whines that she's remorseful about it but yet still keeps N only to have sex with him again in the FS, takes him to f2 only to let him propose to then be rejected, and then gets engaged to Shawn.  And Nick was her friend prior to filming?   Great way to treat your friends.

If K felt so horrible about having sex with N and that it was a mistake, why keep him?  Quite honestly, how could Shawn really trust Kaitlyn after all that.  I know she doesn't owe him anything, but getting wrapped up in the moment and having sex once, understandable given the circumstances, but to continue with it..that would be a tough one for anyone to choke down.

For me, there are two explanations for that:

1) Producer influence - they could have told her that if she had sex with Nick and then didn't even bring him to her final two, she would have gotten sl*t-shamed way worse than she is now. Because, then she didn't have sex with a guy that she was falling in love with and considering marrying, she simply had a hook-up because she was horny even though she was in love with someone else.

2) Like Ali's whole dilemma with Roberto and Frank, she really did think that Shawn was THE one on their first 1-on-1, then went out with Nick and thought he might be the one. She definitely didn't want Shawn to leave, but she wasn't ready to let go of Nick either.  I honestly don't think that she felt bad after Nick sex, but the producers made her cry by going "what if Shawn leaves you and he was the one? what if Nick tells all the guys and they all leave because you're such a sl*t"?. The ITM of her crying and saying that "You make one mistake and you feel like the worst person in the world" was obviously filmed days after, so who knows what they said to make her cry or if she was even talking about Nick sex.

I personally think it's #2. I think that if Shawn was absolutely the one from the begining, no questions asked, she wouldn't have appeared that smitten when Nick came in NY, she wouldn't have had sex with him, and she wouldn't have kept him after she realized how much Shawn hated him and was actually ready to leave because of it. She would have let him go, no matter how much it pissed off the producers or hurt her reputation.

rosesrREd wrote:

Max64 wrote:I just can't seem to wrap my head around the fact that K had a date with Shawn, told him he was the one, next week had a date with N, had sex with him, cries and whines that she's remorseful about it but yet still keeps N only to have sex with him again in the FS, takes him to f2 only to let him propose to then be rejected, and then gets engaged to Shawn.  And Nick was her friend prior to filming?   Great way to treat your friends.

If K felt so horrible about having sex with N and that it was a mistake, why keep him?  Quite honestly, how could Shawn really trust Kaitlyn after all that.  I know she doesn't owe him anything, but getting wrapped up in the moment and having sex once, understandable given the circumstances, but to continue with it..that would be a tough one for anyone to choke down.

It doesn't make sense to me either. If Kaitlyn was so distraught over having sex with Nick, then why did she do it again? Why keep him around if Shawn was the one? There's gotta be more to the story.

She doesn't look distraught about sex with Nick yet... I rewatched the footage of her on the balcony and she is smiling and wistful, almost laughing about the situation initially.  It is not until she thinks about the fact that Nick could spill the beans to the guys.  Which would leave her with "no one" because the guys might leave (esp the only other one she wants), leaving only Nick.  

What is so bad about that? Well if he is going to tell the guys about their relationship, she would probably have a huge issue trusting him going forward.  I'm sure K and Nick talked about what to tell and not tell the guys before he left her room.  I can't see them forgetting to discuss this.  If he talked to the guys, it would not be an issue of just being a blabber mouth, but of betraying her trust.  I can't see her standing for this in a long term relationship given the amount of weight she has given honesty post show.  

I think she kept Nick at this time because she liked him.  She wasn't as upset by the sex as they are trying to make it seem.  I think that she had a hard time with the idea of telling Shawn when he was so upset by the much smaller things that she shared with some of the other guys.  What would Shawn do if she told him about Nick? It was scary for her because she had not decided between them.  K had a hard time deciding between the two final guys.  Otherwise, she would have sent Nick home and playacted better with Jared and Cupcake.  Shawn would have handled that much better.

I think the fact that Kaitlyn says repeatedly, "I don't regret the act of sex, I just regret the timing" means she is with Nick right now. It is clear she does not regret having sex with Nick. Not something you'd say about an ex. Her mistake was letting it all progress too fast, but she is clearly OK with it. I also think the recent photos of Shawn at a bar with other ladies says he is single. I might be having my head firmly planted in the sand, but I think it is Nick and Kaitlyn at the end of this. The snapchat thing was all too convenient, just a foiler.

TopShelf wrote:I think the fact that Kaitlyn says repeatedly, "I don't regret the act of sex, I just regret the timing" means she is with Nick right now.  It is clear she does not regret having sex with Nick.  Not something you'd say about an ex.  Her mistake was letting it all progress too fast, but she is clearly OK with it.  I also think the recent photos of Shawn at a bar with other ladies says he is single.  I might be having my head firmly planted in the sand, but I think it is Nick and Kaitlyn at the end of this.  The snapchat thing was all too convenient, just a foiler.  

Topshelf, I admire your firm pro-Nick and Kaitlyn stance as I am a Nick fan 100%. The only issue I see is that Kaitlyn can not say that she regrets sex with Nick at this time...it would fully give away the end of the show. She has to maintain some neutral stance on both guys. (Although recent media interviews strongly suggest that she has more supportive of Shawn at this time.)

I'm going to have to watch the recent interviews and see what you are talking about OnePromise. I like your analytical posts, they are swaying me. However, I wonder if Kaitlyn being supportive of Shawn in interviews goes toward Shawn or Nick as F1, maybe she has to not gush about the real F1, trying to keep it all a surprise? I wish there was a more definitive clue, I think the SC video is suspect b/c who would video themselves in bed and accidentally post it to snapchat? Seems too suspicious. I am going to stick with Nick as F1 and will probably be wrong just as I was last season. I'm an idealist at heart and probably am not seeing things straight. I just want to believe the love story and they always fool me, the producers/editors of the show are certainly good at throwing us off course.

TopShelf wrote:I'm going to have to watch the recent interviews and see what you are talking about OnePromise.  I like your analytical posts, they are swaying me.  However, I wonder if Kaitlyn being supportive of Shawn in interviews goes toward Shawn or Nick as F1, maybe she has to not gush about the real F1, trying to keep it all a surprise?  I wish there was a more definitive clue, I think the SC video is suspect b/c who would video themselves in bed and accidentally post it to snapchat?  Seems too suspicious.  I am going to stick with Nick as F1 and will probably be wrong just as I was last season.  I'm an idealist at heart and probably am not seeing things straight.  I just want to believe the love story and they always fool me, the producers/editors of the show are certainly good at throwing us off course.

The media thread is a good place to catch up with interviews and SM postings. There are a lot of good links on there. Have fun analyzing!

And if the producers pull off two foilers this season and Nick is F1, I will be celebrating with the best of Nick's Chicks!!!

TopShelf wrote:I wish there was a more definitive clue, I think the SC video is suspect b/c who would video themselves in bed and accidentally post it to snapchat?  Seems too suspicious.

TopShelf, welcome here , so to open the "my previous mistakes" debate ... last year I was in your position, the spoiler-video was out, with Nick talking on a plane how he was "let go" and how "she chose the other guy" ... and I was hoping that to be a foiler, I found many reasons to believe so, I read the interviews and still saw the Bette talking about her F1 as it would be Nick and the lack of mentioning him indicated to me that she just wanted to protect the outcome ... well, it turned out Nick wasn't F1, the video was indeed accidental and real no matter the slim chances that such a passenger's luck could happen (to witness and have a phone ready) ... but it also proves that no matter how smart we are as humans, we sometimes do some dumb things (including over-exposing our personal life on SM). Well, when it comes to edit of the show, that season didn't teach me a lesson and I was fooled again last Bachelor. Now, I think I can recognize the mechanisms TPTB uses for diverting us from F1 ... but I also believe that when a person wants for their F1 to "win", we find clues/reasons to sway us in that direction. And maybe I can't go there this season, because I much rather prefer Nick not being with Kaitlyn. It sucks to be put through this game again without a "happy ending" and to be dumped again and to propose only to be declined (since the history of US weekly shows that they get the scoop directly from TPTB) ... but remember that that happened almost 2 months ago and Nick seems fine, he looks good, he has a genuine happy smile on and if he believed that Kaitlyn could be The One for him, I'm sure he has found his reasons by now why she isn't. (JMMO)

happygolucky wrote:

TopShelf wrote:I wish there was a more definitive clue, I think the SC video is suspect b/c who would video themselves in bed and accidentally post it to snapchat?  Seems too suspicious.

TopShelf, welcome here , so to open the "my previous mistakes" debate ... last year I was in your position, the spoiler-video was out, with Nick talking on a plane how he was "let go" and how "she chose the other guy" ... and I was hoping that to be a foiler, I found many reasons to believe so, I read the interviews and still saw the Bette talking about her F1 as it would be Nick and the lack of mentioning him indicated to me that she just wanted to protect the outcome ... well, it turned out Nick wasn't F1, the video was indeed accidental and real no matter the slim chances that such a passenger's luck could happen (to witness and have a phone ready) ... but it also proves that no matter how smart we are as humans, we sometimes do some dumb things (including over-exposing our personal life on SM). Well, when it comes to edit of the show, that season didn't teach me a lesson and I was fooled again last Bachelor. Now, I think I can recognize the mechanisms TPTB uses for diverting us from F1 ... but I also believe that when a person wants for their F1 to "win", we find clues/reasons to sway us in that direction. And maybe I can't go there this season, because I much rather prefer Nick not being with Kaitlyn. It sucks to be put through this game again without a "happy ending" and to be dumped again and to propose only to be declined (since the history of US weekly shows that they get the scoop directly from TPTB) ... but remember that that happened almost 2 months ago and Nick seems fine, he looks good, he has a genuine happy smile on and if he believed that Kaitlyn could be The One for him, I'm sure he has found his reasons by now why she isn't. (JMMO)

What I just realized was that the one that tipped off RS about Kaitlyn's snapchat is a huge Nick fan. It's nothing, I'm sure, but strange nonetheless.
/

RS, in his spreecast tonight, said that Nick wasn't happy about being rejected, but from what he's heard, he's moved on, but nothing he can prove. To me, that seems like Nick has maybe started dating someone? I know that there was speculation about that because of a couple of IG posts. I wonder if that's caused the hypothetical Nick/Kaitlyn recent tension, if she's angry that he was able to move on so quickly after proposing to her.

rosesrREd wrote:

Max64 wrote:I just can't seem to wrap my head around the fact that K had a date with Shawn, told him he was the one, next week had a date with N, had sex with him, cries and whines that she's remorseful about it but yet still keeps N only to have sex with him again in the FS, takes him to f2 only to let him propose to then be rejected, and then gets engaged to Shawn.  And Nick was her friend prior to filming?   Great way to treat your friends.

If K felt so horrible about having sex with N and that it was a mistake, why keep him?  Quite honestly, how could Shawn really trust Kaitlyn after all that.  I know she doesn't owe him anything, but getting wrapped up in the moment and having sex once, understandable given the circumstances, but to continue with it..that would be a tough one for anyone to choke down.

It doesn't make sense to me either. If Kaitlyn was so distraught over having sex with Nick, then why did she do it again? Why keep him around if Shawn was the one? There's gotta be more to the story.

I think at that point, TPTB may have wanted to keep Nick in their back pocket at a potential bachelor, his redemption would be proposing and being turned down.  I don't think he is really in the running anymore.  I think the negative reaction to pre-FS sex is more than they anticipated and so it is squarely between Josh and Ben H.  But at the time of filming, I do think they were still considering Nick and thought rejected proposal F2 might make America ready for Nick to have his chance.