Nick Viall - Bachelorette 11 - *Spoilers - Sleuthing* - Discussion #5

emusha wrote:curious to see how it plays out but shawn visits K TWO times -- not calmly and casually but very passionately asking in a raised voice flabbergasted "don't you know what we have?" demands an answer -- pretty much issuing an ultimatum "are you in love with me?"
He can't take her giving a GDR to someone else
He tells the producer that he doesn't know if he can take it -- was he threatening to leave??
There's very little to suggest that Kaitlyn was DONE with her other relationships. on the contrary she seemed quite giddy with jared during that guiness date and that "moment" they shared...she got "lost in nick" to a point she forgot where she was and what she was doing...

There is very little evidence to suggest otherwise -- Shawn is the reason for the 6-->3 transition.

Kaitlyn made not one, but two, huge errors in judgement in dealing with BOTH Nick and Shawn, so she needed to choose her f1 faster than normal imo, otherwise she really was going to be left alone. Her poor decision-making skills led to this situation, not Shawn. As usual, jmo.

emusha wrote:curious to see how it plays out but shawn visits K TWO times -- not calmly and casually but very passionately asking in a raised voice flabbergasted "don't you know what we have?" demands an answer -- pretty much issuing an ultimatum "are you in love with me?"
He can't take her giving a GDR to someone else
He tells the producer that he doesn't know if he can take it -- was he threatening to leave??
There's very little to suggest that Kaitlyn was DONE with her other relationships. on the contrary she seemed quite giddy with jared during that guiness date and that "moment" they shared...she got "lost in nick" to a point she forgot where she was and what she was doing...

There is very little evidence to suggest otherwise -- Shawn is the reason for the 6-->3 transition.

moved

Alanna wrote:Kaitlyn made not one, but two, huge errors in judgement in dealing with BOTH Nick and Shawn, so she needed to choose her f1 faster than normal imo, otherwise she really was going to be left alone. Her poor decision-making skills led to this situation, not Shawn. As usual, jmo.

IMO after watching the People interview I have to agree with this. Kaitlyn blew up filming just as she blew up the ending with snapchat. She put herself into a corner by setting Shawn's expectations too soon and compounded that by having sex with Nick.

It seems pretty likely to me that there was a compromise - Kaitlyn needed it to get down to the last 1 and all the show could do was accelerate the ending by getting down to the last 3. Latest I've read is that Ben H is the leading candidate for the next Bachelor so that explains why the number was 3  - the last several shows may have gone with F3 for the next lead (Andi, Chris S, Kaitlyn and now possibly Ben H were all F3 on their seasons). F1 was probably a foregone conclusion if Kaitlyn could put the pin back in the hand grenade - and Nick is F2.

It all sort of makes me ponder ... there's a right to withdraw clause in everyone's contract. It does provide for financial penalties if withdrawal is early, and liability for expenses incurred by the show if withdrawal is early. There's all kinds of pressure the show can (and probably would) exert if someone dug their heels in and wanted to withdraw but by the contract the show can't stop them. Is it possible that Kaitlyn could have forced that issue?

IMO...  Based on previews, articles, tweets and snapchatgate.  I think the producers saw the whole season unraveling and decided to force the issue.  Kaitlyn was clearly only interested in Shawn, Nick and Jared.  Early sex with Shawn was no problem but early sex with Nick and GDR roses and favoritism (Blarney Stone) toward Jared was pushing Shawn over the edge.  I'll bet there were real concerns Shawn would bolt so the TBP had to flip the script.  Hence the Chris Harrison meeting next episode and the total revision of the FSD, HTD and locales.  I would guess the producers did not see Jared as a Bachelor contender so that is the only reason that Ben H was kept in the mix.  A Ben H season would allow for a very different type of season than this one.  He strikes me as a good guy who is much more conservative than Kaitlyn.  I still wonder if Nick is in the mix for bachelor because he seems quite chummy withe TBP and clearly would bring drama and ratings.  Ahh but I digress...  Anyway, by mixing the order up Kaitlyn had to figure out if it was absolutely Shawn or if Nick still was an option.  Time will tell if a real relationship for the unemployed pair of Kaitlyn and Shawn can last in the "real world, outside the bubble." It will be interesting to see if they move in together right away in Vancouver, Nashville or Los Angeles.  I think K and S are very similar in there lack of emotional impulse control.  As an aside, I hope for Nicks sake that aggression and a lack of honesty (Andi) is not part of the AFTR and that Kaitlyn does not try to paint herself as a victim and become Andi #2.

Seabear wrote:IMO...  Based on previews, articles, tweets and snapchatgate.  I think the producers saw the whole season unraveling and decided to force the issue.  Kaitlyn was clearly only interested in Shawn, Nick and Jared.  Early sex with Shawn was no problem but early sex with Nick and GDR roses and favoritism (Blarney Stone) toward Jared was pushing Shawn over the edge.  I'll bet there were real concerns Shawn would bolt so the TBP had to flip the script.  Hence the Chris Harrison meeting next episode and the total revision of the FSD, HTD and locales.  I would guess the producers did not see Jared as a Bachelor contender so that is the only reason that Ben H was kept in the mix.  A Ben H season would allow for a very different type of season than this one.  He strikes me as a good guy who is much more conservative than Kaitlyn.  I still wonder if Nick is in the mix for bachelor because he seems quite chummy withe TBP and clearly would bring drama and ratings.  Ahh but I digress...  Anyway, by mixing the order up Kaitlyn had to figure out if it was absolutely Shawn or if Nick still was an option.  Time will tell if a real relationship for the unemployed pair of Kaitlyn and Shawn can last in the "real world, outside the bubble." It will be interesting to see if they move in together right away in Vancouver, Nashville or Los Angeles.  I think K and S are very similar in there lack of emotional impulse control.  As an aside, I hope for Nicks sake that aggression and a lack of honesty (Andi) is not part of the AFTR and that Kaitlyn does not try to paint herself as a victim and become Andi #2.

great post!

Seabear wrote:IMO...  Based on previews, articles, tweets and snapchatgate.  I think the producers saw the whole season unraveling and decided to force the issue.  Kaitlyn was clearly only interested in Shawn, Nick and Jared.  Early sex with Shawn was no problem but early sex with Nick and GDR roses and favoritism (Blarney Stone) toward Jared was pushing Shawn over the edge.  I'll bet there were real concerns Shawn would bolt so the TBP had to flip the script.  Hence the Chris Harrison meeting next episode and the total revision of the FSD, HTD and locales.  I would guess the producers did not see Jared as a Bachelor contender so that is the only reason that Ben H was kept in the mix.  A Ben H season would allow for a very different type of season than this one.  He strikes me as a good guy who is much more conservative than Kaitlyn.  I still wonder if Nick is in the mix for bachelor because he seems quite chummy withe TBP and clearly would bring drama and ratings.  Ahh but I digress...  Anyway, by mixing the order up Kaitlyn had to figure out if it was absolutely Shawn or if Nick still was an option.  Time will tell if a real relationship for the unemployed pair of Kaitlyn and Shawn can last in the "real world, outside the bubble." It will be interesting to see if they move in together right away in Vancouver, Nashville or Los Angeles.  I think K and S are very similar in there lack of emotional impulse control.  As an aside, I hope for Nicks sake that aggression and a lack of honesty (Andi) is not part of the AFTR and that Kaitlyn does not try to paint herself as a victim and become Andi #2.

I guess I'm in the minority, because I never felt like she had real feelings for Jared. I feel like she thinks he's hot and sweet and he probably strokes her ego a bit since he seems to really be into her (especially according to RS's BIP tease about him), but that's about it. I don't think she ever looks at him and goes "I might end up with this guy" and I don't think she has that raw, sexual chemistry that she does with both Shawn and Nick. When the Nick sex happened, it seemed obvious to me that she was really only worried about Shawn's reaction. He seems to be the Chris Lambton of the season to me. I felt like him getting the group rose and the 1-on-1 in Ireland next week was just the producers trying to make it seem like there are other contenders in the game. I am a bit surprised that he didn't make it to F3, but I'm thinking that either he finds out about Nick and Shawn off-camera time and leaves after a fight with Kaitlyn or the producers interfered, and told her to bring Ben because he's more Bachelor material.

As far as Kaitlyn/Shawn go, I don't know. I actually do think that their chances are higher than Kaitlyn/Nick would be, because I think K/N they are such opposites, it allows for amazing chemistry immediately but not a lot of common interests to last in the long-term. Shawn/Kaitlyn actually remind me a bit of Ali/Roberto (opposite energies, but seem to balance each other out). However, I feel like Shawn and Kaitlyn are both very passionate and impulsive, and I don't know if that will work for the long-term.

IA ^^

Jared is the guy from the original group that trusts her and that's why she likes him. I don't see any amazing chemistry between the two.

And K & N would not work out, I think K is more about the simpler things and N is more thought out and deeper. I think K & S are a better match.
I think K & S can make it, but imagine if K went on dancing with the stars?!? She'd really be testing Shawn ...

Alanna wrote:

emusha wrote:curious to see how it plays out but shawn visits K TWO times -- not calmly and casually but very passionately asking in a raised voice flabbergasted "don't you know what we have?" demands an answer -- pretty much issuing an ultimatum "are you in love with me?"
He can't take her giving a GDR to someone else
He tells the producer that he doesn't know if he can take it -- was he threatening to leave??
There's very little to suggest that Kaitlyn was DONE with her other relationships. on the contrary she seemed quite giddy with jared during that guiness date and that "moment" they shared...she got "lost in nick" to a point she forgot where she was and what she was doing...

There is very little evidence to suggest otherwise -- Shawn is the reason for the 6-->3 transition.

Kaitlyn made not one, but two, huge errors in judgement in dealing with BOTH Nick and Shawn, so she needed to choose her f1 faster than normal imo, otherwise she really was going to be left alone. Her poor decision-making skills led to this situation, not Shawn. As usual, jmo.

This is just my opinion, but I don't think that Kaitlyn acted too differently than most Bachelorettes, but the only difference was that Shawn was a lot more impulsive and jealous than past frontrunners. I've only heard about, for example, Ali telling Roberto on their first 1-on-1 that he was the one, Ashley writing journal entries to JP at week 3 because he was the one, Andi telling Josh what type of ring to pick at the FS because he was the one, but I'm sure that's much more common than we think. And most of these Bachelorettes still got physical with other guys and gave other guys group roses and all that. And, it never caused any real problems because none of these F1 guys got as paranoid and crazy as Shawn did.

CP I agree with you -- I don't know if K's "THE one" was in this group of guys...

chasingpavements wrote:I guess I'm in the minority, because I never felt like she had real feelings for Jared. I feel like she thinks he's hot and sweet and he probably strokes her ego a bit since he seems to really be into her (especially according to RS's BIP tease about him), but that's about it. I don't think she ever looks at him and goes "I might end up with this guy" and I don't think she has that raw, sexual chemistry that she does with both Shawn and Nick. When the Nick sex happened, it seemed obvious to me that she was really only worried about Shawn's reaction. He seems to be the Chris Lambton of the season to me. I felt like him getting the group rose and the 1-on-1 in Ireland next week was just the producers trying to make it seem like there are other contenders in the game. I am a bit surprised that he didn't make it to F3, but I'm thinking that either he finds out about Nick and Shawn off-camera time and leaves after a fight with Kaitlyn or the producers interfered, and told her to bring Ben because he's more Bachelor material.

As far as Kaitlyn/Shawn go, I don't know. I actually do think that their chances are higher than Kaitlyn/Nick would be, because I think K/N they are such opposites, it allows for amazing chemistry immediately but not a lot of common interests to last in the long-term. Shawn/Kaitlyn actually remind me a bit of Ali/Roberto (opposite energies, but seem to balance each other out). However, I feel like Shawn and Kaitlyn are both very passionate and impulsive, and I don't know if that will work for the long-term.

^^^ This. AT LEAST 99% of it - especially what I highlighted.

IMO the thing that dooms any chances with Kaitlyn for Nick - or anybody else not named Shawn Booth - is that Kaitlyn set her sights on Shawn the first time she met him. Kaitlyn has been as singularly focused on Shawn as Des was on Brooks (or perhaps Ashley was on JP) and IMO if she can't have Shawn she will walk away single - there's no backup option she is remotely interested in. For Kaitlyn IMHO it was Shawn or nobody. The only thing that may work out for her is that Shawn just may feel as strongly about her as she does about him. I don't know that this is necessarily a bad thing.
IMHO

I just can't seem to wrap my head around the fact that K had a date with Shawn, told him he was the one, next week had a date with N, had sex with him, cries and whines that she's remorseful about it but yet still keeps N only to have sex with him again in the FS, takes him to f2 only to let him propose to then be rejected, and then gets engaged to Shawn. And Nick was her friend prior to filming? Great way to treat your friends.

If K felt so horrible about having sex with N and that it was a mistake, why keep him? Quite honestly, how could Shawn really trust Kaitlyn after all that. I know she doesn't owe him anything, but getting wrapped up in the moment and having sex once, understandable given the circumstances, but to continue with it..that would be a tough one for anyone to choke down.

chasingpavements wrote:This is just my opinion, but I don't think that Kaitlyn acted too differently than most Bachelorettes, but the only difference was that Shawn was a lot more impulsive and jealous than past frontrunners. I've only heard about, for example, Ali telling Roberto on their first 1-on-1 that he was the one, Ashley writing journal entries to JP at week 3 because he was the one, Andi telling Josh what type of ring to pick at the FS because he was the one, but I'm sure that's much more common than we think. And most of these Bachelorettes still got physical with other guys and gave other guys group roses and all that. And, it never caused any real problems because none of these F1 guys got as paranoid and crazy as Shawn did.

Actually in the case of JP about as many posters wrote posts about how jealous JP was as now are writing posts about how Jealous Shawn is and there was a situation very much like this season with Shawn which occurred on the wedding picture GD.

Ashley previously spent a lot of time in private (or at least not aired) conversations explaining to him just what her "job" was and how the show worked, but in Hong Kong JP got warped out of shape. They discussed, Ashley wondered why he wasn't OK with it when he said he would be, he said he knew what he said but seeing it was a lot tougher than he thought. Ashley gave him the date rose which gave him the HTD.

IMO this is an example of where Kaitlyn missed the boat - she could have and should have done things more like Ashley did. I truly don't know if the producers wanted Ashley to give the date rose to someone else and she ignored that and did what she wanted, or if they just let her choose. I do think they wanted Kaitlyn to give the GD rose to Jared and she did what they wanted. Kaitlyn seems to be "proud" about breaking the rules but some of the rules she should have broken - she didn't. She should have given the GD rose to Shawn regardless of what they wanted her to do. That might have been a short-term fix because the Nick sex thing still had to be dealt with, but she would have been on much more solid footing with Shawn had she given him the GD rose.