Nick Viall - Bachelorette 11 - *Spoilers - Sleuthing* - Discussion #3

emusha wrote:

ironcat wrote:

sdmom wrote:Here's what the man said himself :
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/seanlowe/2014/08/nick-why-i-brought-up-the-fantasy-suite/

"To me what’s most important is that the two people involved have a clear understanding of what sex means to the other person. If the emotional attachment to sex isn’t equal, sex can be hurtful."
"Sex, when enjoyed in the right context, is a wonderful way to solidify a relationship. But when expectations aren’t the same for both partners, it can be devastating."

IMO, Nick doesn't regard sex can only happen between fiances. What happened between him and Andi was they didn't have the same understanding of what sex meant in that particular situation ("In my mind, I went back to that night in the fantasy suite. Though she couldn’t tell me that she loved me, I’d told her in no uncertain terms how I felt. I loved her. This was no fling for me. As far as I was concerned, we’d be engaged in a few days.

To me, sex between us was a big deal, and she knew it.

That’s why I feel Andi’s decision to have sex with me was not appropriate")

Maybe this time between him and Kaitlyn was different? We just have to wait and see!

Sorry Mods for bringing this up. If you think it not appropriate, please delete it. I apologize for any troubles this may bring.

To me, the problem with what Nick said (which he may truly believe in theory, but I wonder whether he has always adhered to it IN PRACTICE), is that open communication and total honesty are not really possible within the confines of this show, where the lead is in the power position, and doing the choosing, and he should have known that.

eta, Yes, as I said in my earlier post, ANYONE (not just Nick) who is put on a pedestal by their fans is going to be fair game to get knocked off.  That's the way it goes.

Sex is not a prerequisite of this show -- it's also not something that is captured on film and where producers convince the people involved to do sex a certain way or another etc.
Sex even on this show happens between two people in the private space with no external influence. Nick revealed his feelings and Andi was aware of the fact that he was "making love" with her cos he loved her...he said that on film and I assume he said he off camera. Andi could have chosen to go forward with sex OR NOT given that knowledge she has of nick and his feelings. she chose to have sex with him and while she was NOT on camera she could also share with him what her thoughts were on sex without any producer pressure. She did not. Then the AFTR came and she told him she had NO falling in love feelings for him, none. so then he asked her why she made love with him with the understanding that he had those deep feelings and without clarifying that she was coming at sex from a very different angle.

IMHO the fact that the cameras are there and the producers deceive people does not give full license  for everyone even in private settings to continue the farce. there have even been leads who chose to ON CAMERA to tell the F2 the truth and chose not to have sex with him openly (Ali and CL) 

Sorry but this does not sound like any pedestal to me  it sounds like two people who did not communicate openly about their expectations of sex - particularly Andi could have been more forthcoming than she was.

First off, the "pedestal" reference was regarding an earlier post; it had nothing to do with the sex talk.

Yes, Andi could have clarified what her feelings were regarding sex with Nick while they were in the FS; she could have respected his feelings more on that topic, but she didn't.  IMO, she acted kind of crappy in taking advantage of "trying him out" just to be sure she was correct in choosing Josh (which is what I suspect she was doing); however, because she was the lead, she was within her rights to do just that, as that's the way the show is set up.  If she had leveled with Nick about how she was operating, she risked him walking out then and there, and since she was a good little soldier, she used that excuse to be crappy towards him for her own benefit rather than look out for his best interests.  JMO.  What I'm saying is that how Andi behaved is immaterial to the fact that Nick's proposed bylaws about sex and communication, while admirable in the real world, don't apply in the Bachelor world, where there is no level playing field and the lead is encouraged by production to do whatever necessary to follow his/her own heart and desires, while leading on the contestants as much as possible.

I just love Kaitlyn honesty it is refreshing. Hope it is with Nick though selfish reasons.

luvlady345 wrote:

mprssdbyu wrote:Just out of curiosity, since Andi conveniently found herself laughing and talking, laying her head on Nick's shoulder  with her friend Christy in Chicago, has she included any instagrams of her and Christy together again outside of Chicago esp since it became public knowledge Nick was all about Kaitlyn instead?

What, huh?  What are you trying to say?

There was no proof that Andi was laughing, and had her head on Nick's shoulder. The picture I saw was with her back to Nick. If Andi did what was said I am sure there would be pictures all over SM.

reason wrote:   I just love Kaitlyn honesty it is refreshing.  Hope it is with Nick though selfish reasons.

This is why I love her too!!
But the funny thing is, just like what kait tweeted, people used her honesty against her now.
I think Nick is being real about his feeling too, thats why the plane vid and the atfr fiasco happened, but people used that against him as well.

On one side, viewers want a genuine lead/contestant, on the other side, people want them to fit a certain mold, talk in a certain way. It's always so interesting.

nannymargie wrote:

luvlady345 wrote:

mprssdbyu wrote:Just out of curiosity, since Andi conveniently found herself laughing and talking, laying her head on Nick's shoulder  with her friend Christy in Chicago, has she included any instagrams of her and Christy together again outside of Chicago esp since it became public knowledge Nick was all about Kaitlyn instead?

What, huh?  What are you trying to say?

There was no proof that Andi was laughing, and had her head on Nick's shoulder.  The picture I saw was with her back to Nick.  If Andi did what was said I am sure there would be pictures all over SM.

Oh, that's what this is about, so Andi is suppose to be jealous now ... You know if that had happen those pic would have been everywhere...

KB_Mom wrote:Given how choppy and splice and dice that preview is with Kaitlyn telling someone "we had sex", the S\C of Nick's face when she says it, wanting imo to mislead us to believe Nick was pre FS sex guy, I think it's at least possible Nick is the one she tells she had sex with another guy.

I am starting to believe this scenario more and more and I have a feeling it's not going to be about any of this season's men. In fact, I think when she says "it went too far, too fast", she will be referring to last season with Chris S and not this season.
The previews did above and beyond hooking and titillating the fans. Kudos to TPTB.

nutty1 wrote:I still think Nick doesn't equate sex with marriage.
But I think in the FS, he incorrectly assumed, being it was right before the FRC, that it meant something more, at that time. Maybe he and Kaitlyn discussed all that prior to having sex, if he even is the one she had sex with.

I know we won't all agree on that. But one thing we can agree on is Nick is very polarizing!

I never got the impression that his problem with the sex had to do with only have sex with someone you marry either. It was the timing of it in the FS AFTER he had told her he loved her, etc and from what Nick said the actions/implications in the FS gave him the impression she felt the same way. She delivered her "I never loved you spiel" and how she knew it was Josh all along and that is when he was like why have sex then knowing it was Josh all along? Valid question imo.

^ I do think Kaitlyn was genuinely hurt and surprised getting dumped after FS with CS. Would be sweet irony if after RS so blithely declared as fact that she had sex with all three F3 (Was he in FS?  He barely knows where they were in Ireland or what the dates were but he knows what happened in FS?  ) if the "we had sex" convo was actually Kaitlyn discussing that she was confused\misled\hurt because CS had sex with her in FS then dumped her,and that she doesn't want to do the same.

FLChica wrote:Typical splice-n-dice in the editing room IMHO. Reports of Nick's demise via "sexgate" have been greatly exaggerated.

Exactly. IF Nick is even actually the sex guy, it doesn't seem it led to any immediate demise for him.

GuardianAngel wrote:IMO As far as putting anyone on a pedestal, there is no difference between Nick's Fan threads and any other Fan thread on this forum. One can say, they are all put on a pedestal if that's the description one wants to use.

My thoughts exactly GA.

ironcat wrote:

emusha wrote:

ironcat wrote:

To me, the problem with what Nick said (which he may truly believe in theory, but I wonder whether he has always adhered to it IN PRACTICE), is that open communication and total honesty are not really possible within the confines of this show, where the lead is in the power position, and doing the choosing, and he should have known that.

eta, Yes, as I said in my earlier post, ANYONE (not just Nick) who is put on a pedestal by their fans is going to be fair game to get knocked off.  That's the way it goes.

Sex is not a prerequisite of this show -- it's also not something that is captured on film and where producers convince the people involved to do sex a certain way or another etc.
Sex even on this show happens between two people in the private space with no external influence. Nick revealed his feelings and Andi was aware of the fact that he was "making love" with her cos he loved her...he said that on film and I assume he said he off camera. Andi could have chosen to go forward with sex OR NOT given that knowledge she has of nick and his feelings. she chose to have sex with him and while she was NOT on camera she could also share with him what her thoughts were on sex without any producer pressure. She did not. Then the AFTR came and she told him she had NO falling in love feelings for him, none. so then he asked her why she made love with him with the understanding that he had those deep feelings and without clarifying that she was coming at sex from a very different angle.

IMHO the fact that the cameras are there and the producers deceive people does not give full license  for everyone even in private settings to continue the farce. there have even been leads who chose to ON CAMERA to tell the F2 the truth and chose not to have sex with him openly (Ali and CL) 

Sorry but this does not sound like any pedestal to me  it sounds like two people who did not communicate openly about their expectations of sex - particularly Andi could have been more forthcoming than she was.

First off, the "pedestal" reference was regarding an earlier post; it had nothing to do with the sex talk.

Yes, Andi could have clarified what her feelings were regarding sex with Nick while they were in the FS; she could have respected his feelings more on that topic, but she didn't.  IMO, she acted kind of crappy in taking advantage of "trying him out" just to be sure she was correct in choosing Josh (which is what I suspect she was doing); however, because she was the lead, she was within her rights to do just that, as that's the way the show is set up.  If she had leveled with Nick about how she was operating, she risked him walking out then and there, and since she was a good little soldier, she used that excuse to be crappy towards him for her own benefit rather than look out for his best interests.  JMO.  What I'm saying is that how Andi behaved is immaterial to the fact that Nick's proposed bylaws about sex and communication, while admirable in the real world, don't apply in the Bachelor world, where there is no level playing field and the lead is encouraged by production to do whatever necessary to follow his/her own heart and desires, while leading on the contestants as much as possible.

Well if we were to flip the situation exactly ...it sounds like you are saying there ARE supposed bylaws that remove any and all requirements from the lead make decisions which suspend any "real world requirements" of acting "thoughtful and considerate" for the purpose of trying and picking the one...it sounds like you are saying such assumed bylaws exist by this show and nick should have been aware of them going in. worth noting: these bylaws are diff from real world expectations for empathy and consideration.

I can see why this could be applicable when things are being FILMED and some leads could buy into it and allow themselves to be coerced and persuaded into acting in that selfish manner for the show and some  do it for their own purposes...after all it's all in the spirit of finding "the one" right?

First: Sex is NOT filmed and so we have to go in with the assumption the lead will do sex primarily to test out if the contestant is a good fit --  after all, based on the supposed bylaws the lead's gotta stay selfish to weed out the person they will NOT pick. 

Second: We have to remember 1. Andi said she had ZERO feelings of falling in love with Nick. 2. She also had sex with him. 

So if both are true then the question is: Did she have sex with him without having any feelings and therefore not needing to adhere to the bylaws of selfishness to figure out if Nick is the not one for her? 
OR ---> She lied in one instance -- she's lying and she has feelings for him so wanted to try him out but she told him the opposite during the AFTR to cover her reputation and not have Josh get mad. OR she had no feelings and did the sex purely for her enjoyment without a need to figure out if he's the F1 for her...

So either she's lying or she deliberately had sex with someone she had no feelings for and did not need to consider. 
Even if the bylaws you outlined of 'selfishness in order to identify F1' were applied she still lied and/or had sex without an intention of considering the guy. 

If we come back to the land where the supposed "show-based selfishness bylaws" are not written down on paper and people are not made of aware of them and they do not sign them rather people go in with the intent of believing in the best in other ppl with the potential of falling in love with them 

-- sex is real and has impact and whether or not Andi acted one way or another Nick was not made to read such supposed bylaws of selfishness when he joined this show. If we are to believe the info about his involvement with the show prior to going on (someone else applied for him) 
-- He actually was brand new to how this show functioned before going on it. So if he has feelings and is hurt and is asking for explanations while still apologizing for his part of the faux pas we cannot expect him to NOT have feelings and NOT ask for explanations -- making the questions he's asking reasons for him being someone "victimized" or "morally superior" etc. even if the show asks us to suspend compassion anyone who's had sex with someone they were falling in love with and then got rejected can relate to his very human reactions --- he has every right to those human reactions whatever the conditions of this show dictate he act like. He also does not deserve to be painted in anything other than a "human" light for those hurt feelings or need for explanations.

JMHO

I think Nick reacted the way he did to Andi and sex in the FS because she was so cold and bitchy to him starting from the dumping, post show and then at ATFR. It doesn't make the ATFR convo the best decision he made, and he has said that himself. Like people have said earlier he's human. So we can't compare the two intimate relationships before watching the show (or maybe even after because of editing) and knowing what transpired with Kaitlyn before, during show, etc.

I will say I was quite shocked he was coming back on this show and I am a fan. And I'm really worried about how it will play out. So I don't have blinders on when it comes to the oddity of this decision for him, although I think he was very much encouraged by producers. And it could be very true that he wanted and enjoyed the attention. Doesn't mean that other aspects of his personality don't remain the same. It is a unique situation.

I can't wait to see how it plays out and would especially want RS to be wrong again. He's just become so arrogant and annoying.