Andi Dorfman & Josh Murray - Bachelorette 10 - General Discussion #3

Sprite wrote:

StacyNor wrote:

Jolena wrote:


I disagree with the bold part. I think Josh was looking for love and I do think he fell in love with her., If he was there to win a competition he was the chosen F1 but he didn't have to propose. IMO he would have been the one in the relationship to put up with more and try harder to make things work. My take is that Andi probably didn't try hard enough on the relationship,, and was trying more to keep up the bachelorette persona. Looking back at some of the interviews and from what I saw in person I would have to lean more towards it being her that was more capable of putting on the happy front for as long as she did as opposed to Josh. I agree that she probably was a bit harder to handle then what he thought.

Josh reminds me of this bad habit I also have. When I usually want something I am quite desperate to have It but when get it I lose interest in it. I later realize I just like the chase. It's really a terrible habit I have been trying to control these past few years.

Anyway, about Josh. I think if Josh and Andi met a different time, like a blind date or a club they wouldn't even have a second date.  They are just too similar for each other taste. I think Josh might have fallen in love with an idea of love instead of falling in love with Andi. He seems to have an ideal picture of a woman he wants as a wife. Maybe someone similar like his mom. I remember in his season reading this board his friends were always talking smack at Nick and laughing at him when he says he sees a future with Andi. They looked at it as if it was a competition instead of their friend that wanted to get married to Andi. I also felt that way when I saw him in the show. He seemed competitive even his proposal seemed just there.

They were together for only 8 months Nikki and JPG lasted longer than these two. Who knows who was acting with these two? Josh was there in the red carpet talking about a wedding he knew it wasn't gonna happen.

10 seasons of The bacherlotte all the men have proposed. It seems its a given that you have to propose in that show unlike The Bachelor since you are competing for the lady.


@chasingpavements Nick only spoke the truth. He saw through him the same way Eric saw through Andi. I never blamed Nick about that video. He was talking to a friend about a private situation that was recorded by someone without his knowledge.

I always love it when the things we speculate about during the season prove to be correct. Many of us saw the truth in the things that both Eric and Nick said...even if it was not always the most popular opinion. We also saw issues with both Andi and Josh which have since been shown to be spot on.

Andi is a hard woman to deal with. JPab and Eric both had a hard exit with her, but the clincher for me was her behaviour in the interview with CH after Eric's death...that I believe was supposed to make her appear more sympathetic. It didn't. If she couldn't muster up sympathy for a man who died so tragically young, whose only issue with her was to ask her to be herself on a stupid reality show, then I don't know when she would/could ever be a kinder, gentler, forgiving person. He dared question her and she could not forgive that...even under those tragic circumstances. That is harsh. Really harsh.

One thing that I want to bring up about the whole relationship between Josh and Andi is that they both knew of each other before the show even started. We had Josh saying he saw her in some club before her season of the Bette started and he was in the middle of being cast. His mom loved her on the Bachelor and I have to think that that had a big influence on him. No doubt his mom pointed out all the similarities between them that would make them a good match and he likely values her opinion since they appear very close. Same deal with Hy and Andi. From all accounts, he was well aware of the Murray clan and likely encouraged Andi in that direction even before the show...not to mention he was there for the meet and greet the first night and during the MTF date. So likely, they were primed to be interested in one another by their families and their approval and encouragement. I think that might have made them more blinded to the problems in the relationship since their families thought they were a good match....and they have both shown that they seek that family approval. It might also be what made them stick it out for longer than they originally might have.

So this ^^^^^^

The first bolded--that was as plain as the eyebrows on her face.

The second bolded: I had a brother killed in an accident when he was 18. I was 22 at the time. It's been over 30 yrs and I can still remember the excruciating pain and how his untimely death fractured our family. Eric's death was about Eric and his family. This became a MEandI moment. It was not about her. She had every opportunity to show a soft, empathetic, loving, kind, compassionate side. All I could see was MEandI when this situation had absolutely nothing to do with her. Nothing. She was nothing in the scheme of his life, but a blip. (not said in mean way) It was too bad even then, she could not realize there is more in the universe than her. This was a moment for her to grow and she didn't grasp it.

The third bolded: I guess that's why you need to go with your gut. Family "knowing" you, only goes so far. MEandI knew her gut(at least as the story line went) and kept questioning it. I agree with the blind date analogy, it never would have gone very far.

Good postings, gals!

I noticed Kacie favouriting Andi´s last instagram picture. Seems like there is no hard blood between the families!! Nice to see a break up this clean.

Many of us saw the truth in the things that both Eric and Nick said...even if it was not always the most popular opinion. We also saw issues with both Andi and Josh which have since been shown to be spot on.

I cannot remember a season where there was so much discussion and opinions on why this wasn't going to work out, which appears to all have come to fruition now. Speculation on their personalities and why it wouldn't work was discussed before the events happened. For example, her digs, how long will he take it, his temper, his family, her fakeness, all of which posters knew wouldn't jive for a long term healthy relationship. The only thing I saw on paper that was a match was they were a good looking couple. Other than that IMO there was no match on paper.

He was looking for a beautiful wife who just so happen to be the Bachelorette and wanted to win her over. Maybe to make his family happy that he has finally found the one IDK, but every time he opened his mouth it sounded like he was selling himself. IA with the speculation they knew each other before re the night club, not once but twice. I was always under that impression. I could see them googling each other, they knew a lot about each other prior to the limo exit.

She was messed up since JPG's season thinking she would be famous and thought she could fake her way through it. Like Andrew said, leaving Nick and Josh in her path for fame.

mindless wrote:

chasingpavements wrote:
Yeah, I agree. I honestly think that Nick nailed it in his plane video. He talked about how Josh was super competitive and would do basically whatever Andi wanted; I think that he probably did that to "win" the Bachelorette and early on in their relationship to appease her, and then stopped, which Andi did not expect. Nick also talked about Josh having a bad temper and being very emotional and insecure and I definitely believe that since we saw signs of that on the show. Probably not the best characteristics to have when you're dating someone who is stubborn, very set in her own ways, and also has a bad temper.

Yes indeed. Nick really had these two pegged since day one. No wonder Andi hates him so much.

Nothing surprising about that article. You'd think they wrote it based on our speculations. You could just tell Josh hated her controlling ways. But no, the failure of the relationship isn't all on Andi. You could see during the season what kind of a person she is and Josh claimed he'd love her no matter what. Well obviously that wasn't true. I hope he learns to approach love in a more realistic manner instead of this romance novel stuff he was spouting at Andi. At least he knows what to avoid now.

This is exactly how I feel. She really should have just listened to her heart that told her over and over and over again that Josh wasn't right. Love her or hate her, she was honest with Josh about who she was and he charged full speed ahead no matter what. He's not a bad guy by any means but I just think he had no idea what he was doing or saying and has hopefully learned a good lesson about this in his future relationships.

So many great posts here I can't quote everything I agree with.  It's the psychology of people and how it shows itself in different ways that can be so interesting.

A few of my thoughts that made me never warm up to either Andi or Josh or them together (that echo many above):

- the preordained from preshow feeling about them and their families
- he was giddy and gooey out of the limo - clearly a preconceived idea or her or winning had already taken him over - I never saw his genuine interest grow out of their time together
- she had so many doubts about him throughtout
- they both are confrontational in conflicts - all I could see after the lie detector episode was major head butting battles
- the proposal moved me 0% - no emotion from either to me that day
- I didn't follow their post finale media much but the one interview I saw Andi was sort of snarkily making snide "jokes" that to me were insulting and Josh grinned through them - for a new couple I was astonished at that  - it seemed mean spirited to me


Also his whole persona never rung true to me - his story of leaving baseball to have a family lifestyle then never playing again because it hurt too much and also not having any relationships in 5 years because he was waiting for the one - the whole story is just so off to me and such a turnoff - just man up and say you moved on from baseball after you went as far as you could go, be proud of what you did accomplish, and that you're casually dating until you meet someone to get into a more serious relationship with. Not too hard to say the truth and it sounds true. I do think for a star athlete it's hard to move on from the limelight, attention and how it defines your life. I hope he can find a new passion.

Lastly I usually become a fan of the person I like the lead best with on the show.  And this season I liked Andi with Marcus (she was much softer, gentler and seemed most caring with him) and Nick (loved their conversations, and more lighthearted flirtiness, she seemed most fun and engaged with him).  Even not caring for Andi much those 2 guys brought out something more likable in her to me.

Alanna wrote:

mindless wrote:

chasingpavements wrote:
Yeah, I agree. I honestly think that Nick nailed it in his plane video. He talked about how Josh was super competitive and would do basically whatever Andi wanted; I think that he probably did that to "win" the Bachelorette and early on in their relationship to appease her, and then stopped, which Andi did not expect. Nick also talked about Josh having a bad temper and being very emotional and insecure and I definitely believe that since we saw signs of that on the show. Probably not the best characteristics to have when you're dating someone who is stubborn, very set in her own ways, and also has a bad temper.

Yes indeed. Nick really had these two pegged since day one. No wonder Andi hates him so much.

Nothing surprising about that article. You'd think they wrote it based on our speculations. You could just tell Josh hated her controlling ways. But no, the failure of the relationship isn't all on Andi. You could see during the season what kind of a person she is and Josh claimed he'd love her no matter what. Well obviously that wasn't true. I hope he learns to approach love in a more realistic manner instead of this romance novel stuff he was spouting at Andi. At least he knows what to avoid now.

This is exactly how I feel. She really should have just listened to her heart that told her over and over and over again that Josh wasn't right. Love her or hate her, she was honest with Josh about who she was and he charged full speed ahead no matter what. He's not a bad guy by any means but I just think he had no idea what he was doing or saying and has hopefully learned a good lesson about this in his future relationships.

I think they were both dishonest. Josh rushed to have her and she lied and said she wanted to marry and have babies. I am willing to give Josh blame. But Andi, I am a lawyer and want to be married and have popped out at least two babies in five years, was also a big fat lie. These two never took the time to be really honest with each other or themselves.

^ This. The most recent successful Bach couples played their roles as lead on the show but were also honest about their real life aspirations.  That's why Ash & JP could move on from the Bentley nonsense.  That's why Des & Chris could move on from the Brooks debacle.  Each of these four made their partner the priority without losing themselves in the process.  

A friendly observation:   a strong, confident woman knows it's not necessary to emasculate a man.  Stand beside him as his equal.

FLChica wrote:^ This. The most recent successful Bach couples played their roles as lead on the show but were also honest about their real life aspirations.  That's why Ash & JP could move on from the Bentley nonsense.  That's why Des & Chris could move on from the Brooks debacle.  Each of these four made their partner the priority without losing themselves in the process.  

A friendly observation:   a strong, confident woman knows it's not necessary to emasculate a man.  Stand beside him as his equal.

Totally agree! So I am outing myself here, but I love Hallmark movies and a line from one that I love is a woman talking about her parents marriage. They love each other so much and both have the strength to both lead and follow. I think in any good marriage each person has moments of leading and following.

Bet2Win wrote:

GuardianAngel wrote:

Bet2Win wrote:The article left out the elephant in the room.

I can't wait for your response?

Josh's and MM's jaws hitting the floor at Nick's announcement on the ATFR.  It felt like an earthquake here that night.  

Interesting, for I only remember that as punctuation to the already revelation of Nick being such classless loser. But I get it!

So many great posts upthread   What a smart group of thinkers!  The best thing to come from this show is reading all your thought-provoking posts. 


About "alpha", I don't think Josh was the only Alpha male in the house however he best fit the "alpha" stereotype or maybe he was more alpha more often.
I'm thinking of his confrontation with Andrew compared to Marquel's confrontation with Andrew. In Marquel's case, his measured calm alpha move ended with Andrew clearly "whipped" and abashed whereas in Josh's scenerio Josh is left outside a closed door complaining to a female production person while Andrew remains Andrew. Alpha looks different on different people.

  Andi and Josh seemed to have the same way of expressing their Alpha side and that makes a big difference. That likely initially gave them a quick understanding of each other but overtime would just be a power struggle.  
There may have been 1 or more guys on the season that would have been suited for Andi but I don't really think she would have been a good match for any of them in the long run. 

FLChica, so true.  I think women (and men as well) with quiet strength are the best role models... a rope made of silk is just as strong as a rope of twine.

Amberish wrote:

Bet2Win wrote:

GuardianAngel wrote:

I can't wait for your response?

Josh's and MM's jaws hitting the floor at Nick's announcement on the ATFR.  It felt like an earthquake here that night.  

Interesting, for I only remember that as punctuation to the already revelation of Nick being such classless loser. But I get it!

Yeah, same here Amberish.....

Andi finally posted on her IG

http://instagram.com/p/x77DQGTdtp/

It says
It's family and friends that pick us up when we fall down and if they can't pick us up they just lay beside us and listen and love