Re: Nick Viall - Bachelorette 10 - Discussion - Thread #7

[albean99]

also, in one of the scenes where the guys were sitting around talking about nick i believe they said not only that he was always strategizing but also that he was talking about who is going to be the next bachelor. i believe that if nick–who is supposedly forthright–didn't want the bach gig he would come out and say so and not play coy like the others who most definitely want the gig.

Sorry who is playing coy exactly?? IMO Chris and Arie have been very forth right with their desire to be the bachelor. Both have tweeted and RTed as much - nick has never done such things. I have no idea if he does or does not want the gig but we cannot know for sure or make any assumptions. I also remember sean saying he didn't want to and heck look where we are now - a proposal and tv wedding.

i was referring to those former leads who have said this. i can't seem to remember any specifically other than sean who you mentioned, but i know a number of them have said it. i think if nick didn't want it all he has to do is be like chris l. and say directly that he isn't interested. (chris l. is probably the best example of a gracious male F2.) i don't see anything wrong with nick wanting to be the next bach, but no i don't think he'd likely get it. he is too much of a loose canon.

I don't believe Chris L actually said he wasn't interested from the beginning. I found this old article on why he didn't do the show and it said it took him 3 months to give them his final answer. I love Chris and don't blame him at all for considering doing the show but once he met Peyton it was game over. To me it doesn't make sense for anyone to say anything other than they'd be flattered. Why burn a bridge?

http://www.boston.com/ae/tv/articles/2010/12/23/chris_lambton_on_why_he_turned_down_the_bachelor_to_return_to_real_life_in_dennis/?page=1

[Cecilia]

All I am saying is that the lie detector date was planned bc she was an attorney!! Not because of Josh Murray.

Right. We're not trying to say that and neither was Josh. He simply said in the interview today that he felt confused because Andi chose him for that date. Josh never claimed the date was planned specifically for him. He just felt upset that they had worked really hard at building that trust and then he had to go on a date and take a lie detector test. He thought she chose him to go on that date, when obviously production holds that power.

It's something that a lot of the guys clearly didn't fully understand while filming was going on. I can think of examples with this for all F4 guys and since we're on Nick's thread and to try to keep it on topic, I can think of other examples for him too.  

He was salty, just like Nick was. Neither of them wanted to be on group dates. Both had the strongest connections. I don't care whether he lied or not. I will admit that Nick has flaws. Will Josh fans? I don't think so.

[Cecilia]

Why would it be ridiculous, if Josh thought that?  He said that he never really saw the show and thought that Andi had actually had more input for the dates and that he an Andi had finally had a break through on the trust issues then the next date he was on was the lie detector date.... So not knowing how the process works and how manipulative TPTB can be I can see why Josh thought the way he did..

Well, then Josh should have been chatting it up with Tricky Nicky who had watched every season and was strategizing 24/7.      

Love…..

[Lucas15]

Are some of you saying that Andi doesn't really get to choose who she asks out on a one-on-one or group date? Are some of you saying that TPTB actually tell the lead who he or she is asking out with the date cards?
I had never heard of that.

It's long been my understanding that TPTB make all those decisions. The lead can make requests but TPTB may or may not allow those requests.

[Kashathediva]

Are some of you saying that Andi doesn't really get to choose who she asks out on a one-on-one or group date? Are some of you saying that TPTB actually tell the lead who he or she is asking out with the date cards?
I had never heard of that.

It's long been my understanding that TPTB make all those decisions. The lead can make requests but TPTB may or may not allow those requests.

Pretty much true dat.

[Ash2214]

All I am saying is that the lie detector date was planned bc she was an attorney!! Not because of Josh Murray.

Right. We're not trying to say that and neither was Josh. He simply said in the interview today that he felt confused because Andi chose him for that date. Josh never claimed the date was planned specifically for him. He just felt upset that they had worked really hard at building that trust and then he had to go on a date and take a lie detector test. He thought she chose him to go on that date, when obviously production holds that power.

It's something that a lot of the guys clearly didn't fully understand while filming was going on. I can think of examples with this for all F4 guys and since we're on Nick's thread and to try to keep it on topic, I can think of other examples for him too.  

He was salty, just like Nick was.  Neither of them wanted to be on group dates.  Both had the strongest connections.  I don't care whether he lied or not.   I will admit that Nick has flaws.  Will Josh fans?  I don't think so.  

I don't get what your response has to do with my post? Josh said he was upset Andi chose him to go on the lie detector date. I don't remember him acting like that on any other date. It wasn't the fact that it was a group date, it was the premise of the date, which negated everything they had worked on during their first 1-on-1 date.

It's quite easy to see flaws in Nick. He was arrogant and egotistical throughout the whole process during which many of the guys disliked him. He then went on to tell millions of people on live television that he had sex with Andi just so he could get back at her for "acting cold towards him." Not once did Josh ever state he was going to be the guy at the end. He would often say he didn't know what her relationships were like with other guys and what their conversations were like with her. He was well liked by the guys too. With everything Nick gave us to work with, it's much more easy to find flaws with the way he acted. Josh? Not as easy.

[Guest]

@lucas - Doesn't it seem odd that Josh broke up with a gf for kissing another, but would have been ok with Andi having sex with Nick? He was already shown clearly annoyed that she wasn't trusting him with the lie detector test. Having sex with Nick because she STILL didn't trust in Josh is a way bigger slap in the face.

Hmm - maybe yes maybe no. I don't think a guy is going to break up with a girl he is in love with for kissing another guy; it's not that cut and dried. If he wanted to break up with her anyway that might be a good excuse though. But the process of this show is so weird I don't know how to precisely translate real life to show process.

There was an interview earlier this morning (literally being commented on while I was writing this post and I didn't know what was said until after I posted) in which Josh addressed this somewhat. Josh knew that he had not yet told Andi he was in love with her until the FD and therefore he knew she was going to have to go through the entire process. I think Josh ultimately accepted the process of the show and therefore what he might have done IRL wouldn't necessarily have been the same thing he would do on a show where he accepts the "process" - especially because he knowingly created part of the process by holding back as long as he did.

As to the lie detector, Josh also explained that. He and Andi had just had a lengthy conversation about trust the week before (which was quite early in the "process") and it had taken Andi a long time to get to where she trusted Josh and then Josh went on the lie detector date and began to question all they had discussed about trust. What Josh didn't know then about the process is that the lead doesn't pick all the "date stuff" so he blamed Andi for the lie detector on the date. Personally I think this is a good example of how TPTB mess with everyone. They knew about the trust discussions and came up with the lie detector precisely because they knew it would create drama - which it did. As of right now? Josh's comment was they both lied two times and are perfect for each other.

Maybe he didn't tell her that he loved her, but he gave her 10 roses and said he was going to propose! I mean really... I would have been thrilled with that if I was in love with him. It just doesn't make sense to me. She didn't need to have sex with Nick if he was plan B and in doing so she put Plan A at risk. If this was Elise... Ok.. write it off, but she's too calculated and smart to make such an obvious misstep. It still feels like a part of the story is missing imo.

I listened to the radio interview just now and it made me sad that Andi is crying over what people are writing about her. No matter where the truth lies in all of this, she didn't deserve that.

[stuckinsc]

To me if you want to blame TPTB and their games for Josh and what happened on the lie detector date, then Nick should be given some of the same consideration.  It doesn't seem fair to excuse Josh and then make Nick a complete villian.  If TPTB manipulated then I am sure that it happened to more than just Josh.

As for Nick getting back at Andi with the question, if you read his interviews and the guest blog for Sean, it was a reaction to the moment that she never loved him.  

I know when I have been crushed I have probably said things I wish I hadn't.  

I like Josh a lot, but the double standard is hard to take.  I think they both got pulled around by TPTB and I think TPTB would have been thrilled with Josh as the next bachelor.

As for the other guys being friends with Josh and not Nick.  Post show the only guys friends with Josh and not Nick are Cody and Marcus.  JJ and Marquel see to be more fond of Nick.  Brian and Chris are friends with both.  Dylan has had good things to say about both.  So really isn't that a toss up?

[stuckinsc]

@lucas - Doesn't it seem odd that Josh broke up with a gf for kissing another, but would have been ok with Andi having sex with Nick? He was already shown clearly annoyed that she wasn't trusting him with the lie detector test. Having sex with Nick because she STILL didn't trust in Josh is a way bigger slap in the face.

Hmm - maybe yes maybe no. I don't think a guy is going to break up with a girl he is in love with for kissing another guy; it's not that cut and dried. If he wanted to break up with her anyway that might be a good excuse though. But the process of this show is so weird I don't know how to precisely translate real life to show process.

There was an interview earlier this morning (literally being commented on while I was writing this post and I didn't know what was said until after I posted) in which Josh addressed this somewhat. Josh knew that he had not yet told Andi he was in love with her until the FD and therefore he knew she was going to have to go through the entire process. I think Josh ultimately accepted the process of the show and therefore what he might have done IRL wouldn't necessarily have been the same thing he would do on a show where he accepts the "process" - especially because he knowingly created part of the process by holding back as long as he did.

As to the lie detector, Josh also explained that. He and Andi had just had a lengthy conversation about trust the week before (which was quite early in the "process") and it had taken Andi a long time to get to where she trusted Josh and then Josh went on the lie detector date and began to question all they had discussed about trust. What Josh didn't know then about the process is that the lead doesn't pick all the "date stuff" so he blamed Andi for the lie detector on the date. Personally I think this is a good example of how TPTB mess with everyone. They knew about the trust discussions and came up with the lie detector precisely because they knew it would create drama - which it did. As of right now? Josh's comment was they both lied two times and are perfect for each other.

Maybe he didn't tell her that he loved her, but he gave her 10 roses and said he was going to propose! I mean really... I would have been thrilled with that if I was in love with him. It just doesn't make sense to me. She didn't need to have sex with Nick if he was plan B and in doing so she put Plan A at risk. If this was Elise... Ok.. write it off, but she's too calculated and smart to make such an obvious misstep. It still feels like a part of the story is missing imo.

I listened to the radio interview just now and it made me sad that Andi is crying over what people are writing about her. No matter where the truth lies in all of this, she didn't deserve that.

I admit that I have purposely avoided the media about Josh and Andi.  But except for the guy from Fox News, who else has written bad things about her.  If there are articles I have missed please let me know.

Crazy idiots on twitter?  Maybe if she is that upset by twitter she should have looked at the person tweeting from right next to her all season.

[Alanna]

To me if you want to blame TPTB and their games for Josh and what happened on the lie detector date, then Nick should be given some of the same consideration.  It doesn't seem fair to excuse Josh and then make Nick a complete villian.  If TPTB manipulated then I am sure that it happened to more than just Josh.

As for Nick getting back at Andi with the question, if you read his interviews and the guest blog for Sean, it was a reaction to the moment that she never loved him.  

I know when I have been crushed I have probably said things I wish I hadn't.  

I like Josh a lot, but the double standard is hard to take.  I think they both got pulled around by TPTB and I think TPTB would have been thrilled with Josh as the next bachelor.

As for the other guys being friends with Josh and not Nick.  Post show the only guys friends with Josh and not Nick are Cody and Marcus.  JJ and Marquel see to be more fond of Nick.  Brian and Chris are friends with both.  Dylan has had good things to say about both.  So really isn't that a toss up?

JMO but I don't think so. Nick is the "loser," it's easier to be nice and gracious to him now that he lost. It would have been interesting to see who would have supported the couple if Nick was f1. That would have been the real story in their friendships, I think.

[stuckinsc]

To me if you want to blame TPTB and their games for Josh and what happened on the lie detector date, then Nick should be given some of the same consideration.  It doesn't seem fair to excuse Josh and then make Nick a complete villian.  If TPTB manipulated then I am sure that it happened to more than just Josh.

As for Nick getting back at Andi with the question, if you read his interviews and the guest blog for Sean, it was a reaction to the moment that she never loved him.  

I know when I have been crushed I have probably said things I wish I hadn't.  

I like Josh a lot, but the double standard is hard to take.  I think they both got pulled around by TPTB and I think TPTB would have been thrilled with Josh as the next bachelor.

As for the other guys being friends with Josh and not Nick.  Post show the only guys friends with Josh and not Nick are Cody and Marcus.  JJ and Marquel see to be more fond of Nick.  Brian and Chris are friends with both.  Dylan has had good things to say about both.  So really isn't that a toss up?

JMO but I don't think so. Nick is the "loser," it's easier to be nice and gracious to him now that he lost. It would have been interesting to see who would have supported the couple if Nick was f1. That would have been the real story in their friendships, I think.

Actually we did see JJ and Marquel as Nick's friends during the season.  Brian and Chris, maybe not.  We also didn't see them all that close to Josh either.  Brian, Chris, Dylan and Marcus were shown hanging out and in pics.  Josh we only got who really liked him after the show, during the show we weren't shown much. 

What about the double standard of TPTB being manipulative to Josh and Andi, but not allowing the same for Nick?

[Guest]

   Color me confused but in Andi 's recent mag interview (Jezebel) she stated "I think if Josh wasn't there I would not be engaged right now—I really, truly believe that."  So if that is the case, why did Andi sleep with Nick?  So, if she really didn't see herself ending up with Nick, why make the situation more complicated by sleeping with him?  I have said it before and I will say it again, Andi wanted to eat her cake and have it without really caring about the consequences of her actions, IMHO.

Maybe she didn't come to that realization until after actually experiencing the fantasy suite date with Nick.  Maybe even if there hadn't been a Josh...she wouldn't have gotten engaged to Nick exactly because of their day/night together.  Maybe the time without cameras and yes, sleeping with him, made her realize that he wasn't what she wanted or needed or hoped he would be for her and that in fact, whatever feelings she was feeling for him were not love.  Maybe what she learned from spending private time with Josh had nothing to do with Nick and everything to do with her relationship with Josh.  

Was she acting with the intense description she gave to her sister at MTP? This is my problem, I can't pinpoint when the acting began. Did it start with the FIR? When TPTB start throwing around "once in a lifetime" VO's what are we ever supposed to believe from them again?

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