*NO SPOILERS* The Bachelorette 10 - Episode Discussion

I figured you were asleep a long time ago Cari. I forget it's the weekend though for you. Going to grab some java and read it now.

gurlbrit - I replied in the other thread about the time stamps as best I could without the pics. I would still love to see them, but at least you know my initial thoughts.

Cari wrote:yoohoooo! Still awake? ...... *crickets*

Fascinating read Cari; I stayed both awake and alert throughout. It sort of validates to me why I always sort of get this "icky" feeling when I have watched Andi with Nick. I prefer the company of people who are humble and perhaps a bit self deprecating and don't feel a need to perpetually blow their own horn.

There's a secret part of me that wonders ... does an ADA like Andi who deals with the criminal mind and seeks the truth so that justice can be just, fail to see through Nick? Was she really taken in? Or did she pick who she wanted to take to F2 based on the old "formula" that F2 was the easiest to dump?

I suppose we may never know ...

Lucas15 wrote:

Cari wrote:yoohoooo! Still awake? ...... *crickets*

Fascinating read Cari; I stayed both awake and alert throughout. It sort of validates to me why I always sort of get this "icky" feeling when I have watched Andi with Nick. I prefer the company of people who are humble and perhaps a bit self deprecating and don't feel a need to perpetually blow their own horn.

There's a secret part of me that wonders ... does an ADA like Andi who deals with the criminal mind and seeks the truth so that justice can be just, fail to see through Nick? Was she really taken in? Or did she pick who she wanted to take to F2 based on the old "formula" that F2 was the easiest to dump?

I suppose we may never know ...

Exactly!

I've been a fan of the original Masterchef series in Australia. From get go I loved Jamie Fleming who is perceived by others as cocky. He was eliminated at Top 4. Here is an excerpt of his interview by PopSugar.

PopSugar: How did it feel to be sometimes described as cocky by guest judges and chefs?

Jamie: [Laughs] It just doesn't bother me. I don't feel I'm cocky, because being cocky implies that you think you're better than everybody else. I was just always very confident with what I was doing, and most of the time I wasn't even confident in that! A lot of the time I was just trying to convince myself that I did know what I was doing, and trying to get your head in the mindset of, 'Right, I have read this, I have done this before, I can do it.'

Jamie defined what "cocky" is...  (and we all know who that is...)

If we go from this season's edit, we know who is the Confident F2 and the Uncertain f1  :Nod:

This is a repeat of Jash all over again. Confident F2 and Uncertain F1.

Picking out rings......

JP: Today is the day where decisions get made, but I'm still a little guarded.  I don't know everything 100%.

(Poor JP when NL asked him while picking out rings "what if she says no?" So mean of NL and you can see JPs heart break just thinking about it.)

Just after picking out rings and getting ready to head to the FRC....

JP: Ben and I know someone is about to get their heart broken.

Ben: When I look at this ring and I'm about to go see Ashley I feel confident. Feel confident in my decision in the ring.  I feel confident in my decision to propose.  I feel confident in our future.  Confidence!

Later as JP is getting in the plane....

JP:  I have accepted the fact that I could walk out of this with a broken heart.

Ben on his walk to the FRC.....

Ben: Today is the day that I am going to propose to Ashley and she is going to say yes.....I do believe Ashley is in love with me.  I see it in her. Our playful little spirit kind of says it all. This is a hell of a story. You know you read a fairytales, you never think that you're going to be a part of one and that's exactly what this is, it's a fairytale.......I'm going to spend the rest of my life with this woman.

After rejection:

Ben: JP is the safer bet than me and I think Ashley went safe today. There were no hints, absolutely no hints. (Sad exit on a dingy boat)

JP on his walk to the FRC....

JP:  No VO, just says to CH he is nervous when questioned.

Wow GG. I had forgotten exactly what Ben said before the finale. It is easy to see why he was so upset afterward. Even if some of his confidence was fueled by TPTB in his ear. He really must have seen something good. I hope he finds his great love like Ashley did. It will be really interesting to hear what Nick says. I truly think he is F2 and I want to compare what he says to what Ben said. Can't wait!

GrahamGal wrote:This is a repeat of Jash all over again. Confident F2 and Uncertain F1.

Well, the show knows they are dealing with people who are not professional actors, but yet they want viewers to see real emotion. In the case of F2 they want real heartbreak, and in the case of F1 they want real elation and joy with a dash of surprise. So the producers manipulate both F2 and F1. They may tell F2 "You'll make beautiful babies together and we know she's going to pick you" and they may tell F1 "We don't know what she's going to do - she's really likes XXXX".

This backfired on them a bit on Jash's season and resulted in an ... unpleasant ... scene between Ashley and Ben (who thought he was F1) and IMHO this is why ever since then, The Bachelorette has been allowed to send F2 home before the FRC and why I think we'll see the same thing this season. On (I believe it was) AfterBuzz, Jason described the scene as "furious anger" but that's not what I recall seeing from Ben, but then I also believe Jason saw a rough edit given to him about two weeks before the finale and he perhaps saw something we didn't see. It was what happened at the FRC though that was responsible for the preview scene (which never was shown in the final edit) of Ashley, in her FRC dress, crying and saying her special day was ruined. A lot of people thought it was because JP dumped her or didn't propose, but it wasn't that - it was what Ben did after she dumped him.

So - I hope we don't get that kind of a repeat this season. But that little bit of history aside, we do have an overconfident F2 and a worried F1 - just what they want for a dramatic ending.

Andi for her part has done her job as lead well; she has kept those that she hasn't selected "involved" which is exactly what her job is. Fans of F2 will blame her (as always happens) for "leading him on" but I have to tell you that compared to real life, what the lead on this show does to lead F2 on is kindergarten play (and MOST of what is responsible for an overconfident F2 comes from the producers, not the lead anyway). How many of us knows someone who was told by a BF or GF "I love you" only to find out they were being cheated on at the very same time? Or fell in love with a charming guy only to find out he was already married and has no intention of leaving his wife? I bet most of us here have either had something like that happen to us personally, or at least know someone personally who has been led on in real life, and what happens on this show is way tamer than what happens in real life. I'm not saying it's right, but everyone who goes on the show knows this is what they signed up for and they signed a contract saying they know this. Everyone.

Lucas15 wrote:

GrahamGal wrote:This is a repeat of Jash all over again. Confident F2 and Uncertain F1.

Well, the show knows they are dealing with people who are not professional actors, but yet they want viewers to see real emotion. In the case of F2 they want real heartbreak, and in the case of F1 they want real elation and joy with a dash of surprise. So the producers manipulate both F2 and F1. They may tell F2 "You'll make beautiful babies together and we know she's going to pick you" and they may tell F1 "We don't know what she's going to do - she's really likes XXXX".

This backfired on them a bit on Jash's season and resulted in an ... unpleasant ... scene between Ashley and Ben (who thought he was F1) and IMHO this is why ever since then, The Bachelorette has been allowed to send F2 home before the FRC and why I think we'll see the same thing this season. On (I believe it was) AfterBuzz, Jason described the scene as "furious anger" but that's not what I recall seeing from Ben, but then I also believe Jason saw a rough edit given to him about two weeks before the finale and he perhaps saw something we didn't see. It was what happened at the FRC though that was responsible for the preview scene (which never was shown in the final edit) of Ashley, in her FRC dress, crying and saying her special day was ruined. A lot of people thought it was because JP dumped her or didn't propose, but it wasn't that - it was what Ben did after she dumped him.

So - I hope we don't get that kind of a repeat this season. But that little bit of history aside, we do have an overconfident F2 and a worried F1 - just what they want for a dramatic ending.

Andi for her part has done her job as lead well; she has kept those that she hasn't selected "involved" which is exactly what her job is. Fans of F2 will blame her (as always happens) for "leading him on" but I have to tell you that compared to real life, what the lead on this show does to lead F2 on is kindergarten play (and MOST of what is responsible for an overconfident F2 comes from the producers, not the lead anyway). How many of us knows someone who was told by a BF or GF "I love you" only to find out they were being cheated on at the very same time? Or fell in love with a charming guy only to find out he was already married and has no intention of leaving his wife? I bet most of us here have either had something like that happen to us personally, or at least know someone personally who has been led on in real life, and what happens on this show is way tamer than what happens in real life. I'm not saying it's right, but everyone who goes on the show knows this is what they signed up for and they signed a contract saying they know this. Everyone.

Great post Lucas and I agree. Nick is absolutely being manipulated by TPTB whether he knew it or not. They know they want drama and they identify a guy early on they knew they can manipulate. That was Nick and I believe it started week two when he had the mini date with her at the cocktail party.

I hope we don't get a repeat either. I can always do without the drama, especially at the finale and the ATFR. As for Andi she is my favorite Bachelorette ever, no matter who she picks.

GrahamGal wrote:Nick is absolutely being manipulated by TPTB whether he knew it or not.  They know they want drama and they identify a guy early on they knew they can manipulate.  That was Nick and I believe it started week two when he had the mini date with her at the cocktail party.

I hope we don't get a repeat either.  I can always do without the drama, especially at the finale and the ATFR.  As for Andi she is my favorite Bachelorette ever, no matter who she picks.

I loved Ashley's season and her pick and she was my favorite lead for the longest time. Andi is AT LEAST a very close second and may end up edging Ashley out in my "overall ratings". So far we lack the after-the-finale piece of Andi (which factors into my overall perception of the season) and Ashley & JP are a tough act to follow but I'd love to see Andi shine there too.

Agree - the producers did their job well this season and identified someone who could be most easily manipulated into being overly confident (Nick) and then went to town doing what they know so well how to do; you can sort of see the producer's fingerprints all over this season and Nick's performance from beginning to end. In one of the deleted scenes Andi made what is probably a freudian slip when she stumbled over saying why she gave Nick the FI rose but I think she gave it to Nick because the producers suggested that she do that and that was the real beginning of their manipulation, and it just continued from then on. Just the fact that Nick has alluded to getting the FI rose during the season and in PIs suggests the producers haven't let him forget it.