Last Chance Dates - Screencaps - Discussion

JP must have told Ashley what her sister said because in the extended "Mean Sister" preview Ashley tells her how JP felt. Even that her isster told him there was nothing he could do to change her mind. Chrystie (sp) admits she did say that to him. I think I'm remembering that correctly. So their conversation would have been after he talks to her sister. My guess is after the entire date they debried (as you stated) and Ashley brings it up to her sis the next day.

Samantharose wrote:

ironcat wrote:

GrahamGal wrote:

Samantharose wrote:

noobsleuth wrote:

JBF wrote:

With the other family, that heartbreak business really gave them a work-out and they fear seeing JP go through another disturbing "dark phase". I don't see any problem with family approval here, however, which will make the Chrystie situation a major shock to him. Certainly Ashley was accepted for who she was. He told both Ilene and Roy he will handle the chance of heartbreak better this time. One of my favorite lines all season was said directly to Ashley: "At the end of all this, someone… someone’s heart is going to be broken, but unless I completely… completely put myself out there and expose my vulnerability and allow myself to get hurt, there is no way that we could ever work…" It took me by surprise because most of the fodder we hear on these episodes are about "the journey" or "I have an amazing family".

When I read this it made me remember Ashley's blog about how she was nervous to meet JP's family because she wasn't sure they would accept her because she wasn't Jewish and of course they did. I bet this was the convo that she had with Peter that we never got to see. They accepted her as she was... Ilene just wants her boy to be happy. Peter says she would be a welcome addition. JP not being accepted by Chrystie is going to shock him. The idea of such a harsh snap judgment is probably extremely foreign to him. You know the people that are always extremely polite, articulate, intelligent, etc. find it hard to accept when someone doesn't like them and there is really nothing they can do about it. It's frustrating and defeating. And regardless of what Chrystie is saying now I will always feel bad for him and think she handled her opinions terribly. It's called tact.

Yes, it sounds like Chrystie doesn't handle this conversation tactfully with JP but, on the flip side I think its good Ashley has someone standing up for her or atleast speaking up and saying "have you really thought this thru?" We know the Bachelor Bubble is crazy. From Ashley being on before, Chrystie must be aware of some of the manipulations the contestants are put thru. Maybe she just wanted Ashley to take a step back and really think before making this big decision? JP is a big boy. He can handle it! LOL I don't see him letting Ashley walk away from him. Besides, its good to keep the man on his toes! :giggle: IMHO, JP has found quite a treasure in Ashley.

That is the problem that I have with what Chrystie said. You just met the guy and their is NOTHING he can do to change you mind? (even though he finally did) Talk about being close minded. I don't have a problem with challenging her sister, but what she did to JP is unacceptable and in poor taste IMO. Oh well, it's all water under the bring since JP was able to change her mind after all. Go JP!!

ICAM. I don't care if JP told Chrystie he planned for him and Ashley to live in a cardboard box on the George Washington Bridge, a gracious and tactful person, would say, "oh, really?", and then when she got her sister alone would lower the boom on her. Instead, she made a snap judgment of him based on a superficial and highly orchestrated meeting, immediately put him on the defensive as if he had just been arrested for a crime, and then told him that no matter what he said to defend himself, her mind was made up against him. If that's not a biotch, I don't know what is. I hope she feels her 15 minutes of fame was worth it, and she's damn lucky that her future brother-in-law is, unlike her it seems, a forgiving and empathetic person.

Whoa! I take it you feel pretty strongly about this?! LOL My point wasn't to get you all riled up. I was just pointing out another perspective and keeping in mind what we see has been highly edited and tweeked for optimum ratings via Fleiss and his magic editing wand.

How many of us board members made snap judgements based off his promo pic?

Sorry, I'm not riled up (was trying to be funny actually, guess it fell flat ), but I was just trying to separate Chrystie having every right to look out for her sister's best interests, as you say, from not having the right to be blatantly rude to somebody (who did nothing to deserve it) in order to do so. Unless she was directed by the producers to be confrontational with JP, in which case, assuming he wasn't in on it as well, she decided that her 15 minutes were worth more to her than respecting another human being, and not risking screwing up her sister's relationship with a man she might have been in love with. Then I'll change my opinion of her from tactless biotch to selfish fameho.

And just to reiterate, I have absolutely no problem with her voicing any and all concerns about JP to Ashley in private, after she has conducted her conversation with JP in a gracious and non-hostile manner.

ironcat wrote:

Samantharose wrote:

ironcat wrote:

GrahamGal wrote:

Samantharose wrote:

noobsleuth wrote:

JBF wrote:

With the other family, that heartbreak business really gave them a work-out and they fear seeing JP go through another disturbing "dark phase". I don't see any problem with family approval here, however, which will make the Chrystie situation a major shock to him. Certainly Ashley was accepted for who she was. He told both Ilene and Roy he will handle the chance of heartbreak better this time. One of my favorite lines all season was said directly to Ashley: "At the end of all this, someone… someone’s heart is going to be broken, but unless I completely… completely put myself out there and expose my vulnerability and allow myself to get hurt, there is no way that we could ever work…" It took me by surprise because most of the fodder we hear on these episodes are about "the journey" or "I have an amazing family".

When I read this it made me remember Ashley's blog about how she was nervous to meet JP's family because she wasn't sure they would accept her because she wasn't Jewish and of course they did. I bet this was the convo that she had with Peter that we never got to see. They accepted her as she was... Ilene just wants her boy to be happy. Peter says she would be a welcome addition. JP not being accepted by Chrystie is going to shock him. The idea of such a harsh snap judgment is probably extremely foreign to him. You know the people that are always extremely polite, articulate, intelligent, etc. find it hard to accept when someone doesn't like them and there is really nothing they can do about it. It's frustrating and defeating. And regardless of what Chrystie is saying now I will always feel bad for him and think she handled her opinions terribly. It's called tact.

Yes, it sounds like Chrystie doesn't handle this conversation tactfully with JP but, on the flip side I think its good Ashley has someone standing up for her or atleast speaking up and saying "have you really thought this thru?" We know the Bachelor Bubble is crazy. From Ashley being on before, Chrystie must be aware of some of the manipulations the contestants are put thru. Maybe she just wanted Ashley to take a step back and really think before making this big decision? JP is a big boy. He can handle it! LOL I don't see him letting Ashley walk away from him. Besides, its good to keep the man on his toes! :giggle: IMHO, JP has found quite a treasure in Ashley.

That is the problem that I have with what Chrystie said. You just met the guy and their is NOTHING he can do to change you mind? (even though he finally did) Talk about being close minded. I don't have a problem with challenging her sister, but what she did to JP is unacceptable and in poor taste IMO. Oh well, it's all water under the bring since JP was able to change her mind after all. Go JP!!

ICAM. I don't care if JP told Chrystie he planned for him and Ashley to live in a cardboard box on the George Washington Bridge, a gracious and tactful person, would say, "oh, really?", and then when she got her sister alone would lower the boom on her. Instead, she made a snap judgment of him based on a superficial and highly orchestrated meeting, immediately put him on the defensive as if he had just been arrested for a crime, and then told him that no matter what he said to defend himself, her mind was made up against him. If that's not a biotch, I don't know what is. I hope she feels her 15 minutes of fame was worth it, and she's damn lucky that her future brother-in-law is, unlike her it seems, a forgiving and empathetic person.

Whoa! I take it you feel pretty strongly about this?! LOL My point wasn't to get you all riled up. I was just pointing out another perspective and keeping in mind what we see has been highly edited and tweeked for optimum ratings via Fleiss and his magic editing wand.

How many of us board members made snap judgements based off his promo pic?

Sorry, I'm not riled up (was trying to be funny actually, guess it fell flat ), but I was just trying to separate Chrystie having every right to look out for her sister's best interests, as you say, from not having the right to be blatantly rude to somebody (who did nothing to deserve it) in order to do so. Unless she was directed by the producers to be confrontational with JP, in which case, assuming he wasn't in on it as well, she decided that her 15 minutes were worth more to her than respecting another human being, and not risking screwing up her sister's relationship with a man she might have been in love with. Then I'll change my opinion of her from tactless biotch to selfish fameho.

And just to reiterate, I have absolutely no problem with her voicing any and all concerns about JP to Ashley in private, after she has conducted her conversation with JP in a gracious and non-hostile manner.

That was good!! Thanks for the laugh, I needed that!! :laughingoutlou :laughingoutlou

logomaniac wrote:JP must have told Ashley what her sister said because in the extended "Mean Sister" preview Ashley tells her how JP felt. Even that her isster told him there was nothing he could do to change her mind. Chrystie (sp) admits she did say that to him. I think I'm remembering that correctly. So their conversation would have been after he talks to her sister. My guess is after the entire date they debried (as you stated) and Ashley brings it up to her sis the next day.

The funny thing is that I haven't seen the extended preview. I was mostly basing my opinion that Ashley and JP would talk this out from some meager information when the conflict first surfaced and the past history of this couple. What's truly remarkable to me is less the physical attraction between them which jumps at me every time I have seen them share the screen, but the emotional connection and an uncanny ability to take an issue one of them has, discuss it openly and honestly, and take that issue from an "I / me" basis to an "us / we" basis and work together to resolve it.

I'm a bit astounded that the show has been able to capture this and show it to us. The format of this show makes it very difficult to get there and I strongly suspect the reason that many show couples don't make it out of the bubble is that they never learn to do this. The ones that learn how to are probably the ones that actually make in in real life.

albean99 wrote:

Love_Me wrote:Sometimes I feel the F2's know they are not going to end up with the lead so their final dates and Vo's seem forced and scripted.

Ben must have felt confident enough that if he did purpose Ashley would say yes. I see no other reason why he would go through that if he felt he was not the F1. JMHO

ITA, LoveMe.

Considering we've seen approximately 10 mins of the hours from each date it's probably safe to assume that there are reasons Ben is so confident and I doubt it's because he's in total denial. He may not know the degree of Ashley's feelings for JP but he does know what she's like with him. I think part of it is not knowing that you can't take what the lead says at face value in this crazy show. I also wish we had seen Ashley reminding Ben that she has decisions to make instead of going along with some of his comments like her mom coming to visit on the holidays. Even I was surprised to hear Ashley say that she was most nervous at meeting Ben's mom which I'm sure he took as more confirmation. Unfortunately Ben doesn't appear to have watched the show and his sister may be more of a casual viewer than we are so unfortunately wasn't wise to the ways of the evil Fleiss. :Nod:

ITA!

You know what, hypothetically ,had Chrystie been in JP's shoes and about to meet my mom as the future fiancee of let us say my brother, she would have been met with politeness and good manners.Privately, my mom who is conservative would have been a little shocked by all her tattoos and may ask my brother about her and if he really loved her before talking to her,but she will never even think of showing any sign of displeasure without even knowing her that well. My mom always abided by the saying "don't judge a book by its cover".
Simply put, what Chrystie did to JP was lack of manners and showed a controlling side of her personality. She did not ask Ashley how she felt about JP before she judged and verbally manhandled him.She thought her opinion was important and that it did not matter how Ashley felt about JP. Very inconsiderate of her. I hope this incident will not leave a bad taste with JP's family when they finally see it.

Lucas15 wrote:

JBF wrote:Ashley considers family approval so important and this will create MASSIVE drama involving her family on Monday.

As soon as I saw the previews where it first appeared that Ashley's family didn't approve of her F1 choice, I went on a search for a clip of her HTD on Brad's season. Brad's season was important to me because it was filmed and edited and shown before her show started filming, and I figured would not have been edited knowing what would happen at the end of her own show. Ashley specifically said this on her HTD:

I'm feeling the closest I've ever felt to being in love with Brad but if my parents were to be, you know, hesitant about, it I would definitely take a step back and kind of re-evaluate the situation.

What's interesting to me about this is that she doesn't say she wouldn't make a choice that went against her parents, only that she would re-evaluate. I suspect as the finale plays out that's exactly what we're going to see her do.

It will be interesting to see just how long it takes her to get Jordan involved in this re-evaluation.

I'm pretty sure that her mother and step-father do not have any issues with JP and her mom said she didn't see whatever it was that Chrystie saw (or didn't see) in Ashley's demeanor/face. We'll see how it plays out tomorrow evening, but I think we'll see that Ashley's parents don't drive her to re-evaluate her decision regarding her JP relationship. Who knows what baggage older tattooed sis has with her younger Ivy League sister?

BTW, thanks for going back to watch the hometown with Brad and taking the time to transcribe some key VO and dialogue.

bing2262 wrote:You know what, hypothetically ,had Chrystie been in JP's shoes and about to meet my mom as the future fiancee of let us say my brother, she would have been met with politeness and good manners.Privately, my mom who is conservative would have been a little shocked by all her tattoos and may ask my brother about her and if he really loved her before talking to her,but she will never even think of showing any sign of displeasure without even knowing her that well. My mom always abided by the saying "don't judge a book by its cover".
Simply put, what Chrystie did to JP was lack of manners and showed a controlling side of her personality. She did not ask Ashley how she felt about JP before she judged and verbally manhandled him.She thought her opinion was important and that it did not matter how Ashley felt about JP. Very inconsiderate of her. I hope this incident will not leave a bad taste with JP's family when they finally see it.

I'm still leaning towards the whole manufactured obstacle here. It makes NO sense that her argument had something to do with his age (in addition to her so called litany of complaints) and then in the next breath she mentions Brad who is older than JP. Smells like a page from the MF scripted drama book...

Lucas15 wrote:

JBF wrote:Ashley considers family approval so important and this will create MASSIVE drama involving her family on Monday.

As soon as I saw the previews where it first appeared that Ashley's family didn't approve of her F1 choice, I went on a search for a clip of her HTD on Brad's season. Brad's season was important to me because it was filmed and edited and shown before her show started filming, and I figured would not have been edited knowing what would happen at the end of her own show. Ashley specifically said this on her HTD:

I'm feeling the closest I've ever felt to being in love with Brad but if my parents were to be, you know, hesitant about, it I would definitely take a step back and kind of re-evaluate the situation.

What's interesting to me about this is that she doesn't say she wouldn't make a choice that went against her parents, only that she would re-evaluate. I suspect as the finale plays out that's exactly what we're going to see her do.

It will be interesting to see just how long it takes her to get Jordan involved in this re-evaluation.

I have to chuckle. That re-evaluate quote is floating around somewhere in the VO & PI thread. That hometown date is chocked full of foreshadow clues for the finale, since we get to see her family there.

Lots of material from Brad's season has been useful.

The carnival date is interesting in relation to both William’s Las Vegas discussion of his alcoholic father and Ben’s “walls” storyline. Brad’s walls came down thanks to Ashley.

The Fantasy Date with Brad has a few “foreshadow hints” directed to JP. With JP, she always remembers to say “we” and “us” since Brad corrected her on her pronoun usage previously. Also, they flew in a small helicopter that date and she was clinging to Brad like she does JP in the seaplane. Her need for "comfort" is also emphasized here. Their joking about Fiji versus New York (and no mention of Maine or Philly) was also foreshadowed with Brad's "Where do we want to live?" and their argument about Austin. In a curious way, every "problem" she had with Brad got resolved rapidly with JP. She is very quick in her decisions.

Lucas15 wrote:

logomaniac wrote:JP must have told Ashley what her sister said because in the extended "Mean Sister" preview Ashley tells her how JP felt. Even that her isster told him there was nothing he could do to change her mind. Chrystie (sp) admits she did say that to him. I think I'm remembering that correctly. So their conversation would have been after he talks to her sister. My guess is after the entire date they debried (as you stated) and Ashley brings it up to her sis the next day.

The funny thing is that I haven't seen the extended preview. I was mostly basing my opinion that Ashley and JP would talk this out from some meager information when the conflict first surfaced and the past history of this couple. What's truly remarkable to me is less the physical attraction between them which jumps at me every time I have seen them share the screen, but the emotional connection and an uncanny ability to take an issue one of them has, discuss it openly and honestly, and take that issue from an "I / me" basis to an "us / we" basis and work together to resolve it.

I'm a bit astounded that the show has been able to capture this and show it to us. The format of this show makes it very difficult to get there and I strongly suspect the reason that many show couples don't make it out of the bubble is that they never learn to do this. The ones that learn how to are probably the ones that actually make in in real life.

Great Post! I feel exactly the same way. Ash and JP have calmly and honestly communicated through every single issue this show has thrown at them. The foundation of trust they built during the show, despite the best efforts of TPTB to create drama around every corner, I believe will get them through. I think it has to do with the maturity level of both of them and knowing what it takes to make a successful relationship work. Communication is key.

Thomigirl wrote:

bing2262 wrote:You know what, hypothetically ,had Chrystie been in JP's shoes and about to meet my mom as the future fiancee of let us say my brother, she would have been met with politeness and good manners.Privately, my mom who is conservative would have been a little shocked by all her tattoos and may ask my brother about her and if he really loved her before talking to her,but she will never even think of showing any sign of displeasure without even knowing her that well. My mom always abided by the saying "don't judge a book by its cover".
Simply put, what Chrystie did to JP was lack of manners and showed a controlling side of her personality. She did not ask Ashley how she felt about JP before she judged and verbally manhandled him.She thought her opinion was important and that it did not matter how Ashley felt about JP. Very inconsiderate of her. I hope this incident will not leave a bad taste with JP's family when they finally see it.

I'm still leaning towards the whole manufactured obstacle here. It makes NO sense that her argument had something to do with his age (in addition to her so called litany of complaints) and then in the next breath she mentions Brad who is older than JP. Smells like a page from the MF scripted drama book...

I'm still on the fence about this being manufactured, but one thing that makes me think it's possible is that I would think Chrystie is used to being judged before people get to really know her. In fact we all seem to be doing it on this board. So I would think she would be the last person to "judge a book by it's cover." It just doesn't add up.

GrahamGal wrote:I'm still on the fence about this being manufactured, but one thing that makes me think it's possible is that I would think Chrystie is used to being judged before people get to really know her. In fact we all seem to be doing it on this board. So I would think she would be the last person to "judge a book by it's cover." It just doesn't add up.

It's hard for me to understand how someone who is unfairly judged could be quick to judge others, but I do see this happening IRL. I think it might be similar to an abused child growing up to be an abusive adult. Here's what I have trouble imagining - that TPTB pushed Chrystie into playing devil's advocate, and she didn't back off immediately when she saw her sister's tearful reaction. However misguided, I think Chrystie thought she was doing the best thing for Ashley.