Episode 9 (FD's) - 2/25 - Bachelor 17 - Discussion - Spoilers

chicagoowl wrote:

Kashathediva wrote:

NCGalBecca wrote:Looks like AshLee received this season's version of swimming with sharks. I really don't really understand Sean's treatment of her here at the end and admit to being disappointed by it. He knew he was dealing with a fragile soul.

Lindsay gets the bugs but even if she doesn't like it, she's much more likely to roll with something like that and see it as adventure to tell her kids about someday.

Again, I see this as the Machine's doing and their ability to manipulate(even if it's a subtle suggestion). Pushing AshLee to her limits is TPTB's modus operandi and getting Yawn to go along with their plans or think it is ok or his idea is just their way of handling him.
When I hear the key words: "breaking the rules" as it applies to this show(regardless of season), I immediately laugh and say to myself this is the show's way of saying we are allowing you to think we are throwing you a bone when in reality we threw out some old, smelly cheese and you walked right into the mousetrap once again.

I would freak having to swim through a cave, holding my breath while looking around blindly for the entrance of where I was supposed to swim. Are they kidding? And if I really loved someone, I would never want them to do something they were that afraid of --heck, if I only liked them I wouldn't want them that far out of their comfort zone in order to prove something to me. Do it for you, not for me. Respect yourself and your gut feelings first and foremost. JMO.

Ugh...But Sean is her destiny and her life-partner. Not. They're going to make AshLee do this cave thing so she can prove she's letting go of control. And again Ashlee will happily oblige. Again we'll hear the words...abandonment, abandonment, abandonment, control, control, control, adoption, adoption adoption. Ugh... I'll have to fast-forward through this part.

You and me both. AshLee seems like a lovely woman, and I certainly don't relish seeing her get hurt in the next episode, but I really, really wish they'd stop casting these fragile women whose abandonment issues/insecurities make them completely unsuited for this format. (And yes, I know it will never happen. Those people are this show's lifeblood! :Smiley:)

I'll chalk it up primarily to being a heartless bitch, but every time this happens, I can't help but be irritated with the contestants themselves. If you know you have abandonment/trust/security/confidence issues and can't handle rejection, why sign up to go on a show where you have a 96% chance of not being the F1? Obviously the producers screw with their heads, but that's no reason to just throw common sense to the wind and be 100% sure that you're going to be the one. JP was as close to a stone cold lock as this show has ever had, but over and over again, we saw him acknowledging that he could be wrong and might get really hurt in the end. I wish more people would take a page from his book and brace themselves for rejection.

The Bachelor/ettes always take a beating for leading these special snowflakes on, but the only time I've ever thought it was truly warranted was when Andy told Bevin he loved her, only to dump her the next day. Otherwise, IMO, it's not leading someone on to take them far into the process because you genuinely like them, only to let them go near the end because you have deeper feelings for someone else. In fact, it's the entire premise of the show. And just because these contestants end up hurt, doesn't mean the Bachelor/ette did anything "wrong." I'm pretty sure if Sean had cut AshLee in Episode 2, she probably would have had the exact same reaction she has on Monday night's show. This really is not the ideal forum for someone like her to work through their abandonment issues.

In any case, now that she's escaped the bubble, I'm sure she'll be just fine. Hopefully, she's watched the season back and gained some clarity on the non-mutality of her feelings and Sean's. She has a lot to offer a guy and hopefully she'll find him in the right setting. Perhaps a group therapy session?

She is very sensitive but she is also very strong. She was the one who faced up to Tierra. Firm, clear, resolute, and yet respectful. I think she is not as fragile as she appears. She'll be ok.

avoice wrote:She is very sensitive but she is also very strong. She was the one who faced up to Tierra. Firm, clear, resolute, and yet respectful. I think she is not as fragile as she appears. She'll be ok.

Now that you've reminded me of that, I agree that she handled the situation with Tierra really well. That's why I'm even more surprised that she didn't protect herself a little more. It's admirable to open yourself up make the effort to trust someone, but it really has to be tempered with a healthy dose of skepticism as well.

Archer23 wrote:

avoice wrote:She is very sensitive but she is also very strong. She was the one who faced up to Tierra. Firm, clear, resolute, and yet respectful. I think she is not as fragile as she appears. She'll be ok.

Now that you've reminded me of that, I agree that she handled the situation with Tierra really well. That's why I'm even more surprised that she didn't protect herself a little more. It's admirable to open yourself up make the effort to trust someone, but it really has to be tempered with a healthy dose of skepticism as well.

AshLee and girls is not AshLee and Sean. I think that Ash can handle herself easily when with women. She has street instinct that won't fail her, which made her equal to Tierra and able to confront her.

Her insecurities rear their head when she's in a male-female relationship, which taps into different parts of our psychology. The bond mimics that of our earliest attachments, induces the same biochemical reactions, and requires trust and mutual regard. That's where AshLee lost her footing: Not only did she have insecure early attachment patterns, but Sean's the type of guy who makes a girl feel safe and secure, and I think his White Knight syndrome did draw him to Ash, wanting to help her (plus the show's own motives). She was a goner from the beginning. No life-preserver of skepticism for her. The show knew it was going to end messy when they cast her.

And let's not forget about the psych testing, so TPTB probably really targeted those abandonment/insecurity issues for their good use.
It would not surprise me at all if the Machine had actually wanted AshLee for their F2 to potentiate more outrage and drama after Yawn rejects her, but Yawn went another route.

veg_out wrote:

Archer23 wrote:

avoice wrote:She is very sensitive but she is also very strong. She was the one who faced up to Tierra. Firm, clear, resolute, and yet respectful. I think she is not as fragile as she appears. She'll be ok.

Now that you've reminded me of that, I agree that she handled the situation with Tierra really well. That's why I'm even more surprised that she didn't protect herself a little more. It's admirable to open yourself up make the effort to trust someone, but it really has to be tempered with a healthy dose of skepticism as well.

AshLee and girls is not AshLee and Sean. I think that Ash can handle herself easily when with women. She has street instinct that won't fail her, which made her equal to Tierra and able to confront her.

Her insecurities rear their head when she's in a male-female relationship, which taps into different parts of our psychology. The bond mimics that of our earliest attachments, induces the same biochemical reactions, and requires trust and mutual regard. That's where AshLee lost her footing: Not only did she have insecure early attachment patterns, but Sean's the type of guy who makes a girl feel safe and secure, and I think his White Knight syndrome did draw him to Ash, wanting to help her (plus the show's own motives). She was a goner from the beginning. No life-preserver of skepticism for her. The show knew it was going to end messy when they cast her.

As much as I hate how the producers manipulate and exploit these women and their issues for our viewing pleasure, I have to agree with Archer. This is not a new show that nobody has ever seen before. There is enough information out there on how the thing is produced, edited and how contestants are manipulated to get the desired results. I don't know if most of them even read their contract which basically says that they can do whatever they want with your edit to make it seem as if you did whatever. Maybe I am a control nut, but, I like to be informed and know what I am getting myself into so that I can prepare myself as much as possible under the circumstances...no matter what they are. By all means go on the show for the adventure, travel, fun, money...whatever reason you want...but, based on past seasons, you would think that they would at least attempt to protect themselves with a health degree of scepticism about the whole process.

I agree with both you and Arch, Sprites, that the error was in the choice. Once it was a done deal, no way was Ash keeping her head on straight enough to not tell him in the 2nd or 3rd episode that she couldn't stop thinking of him.

I like her, but this storyboard was firmly set when she sent in her app!

veg_out wrote:

Archer23 wrote:

avoice wrote:She is very sensitive but she is also very strong. She was the one who faced up to Tierra. Firm, clear, resolute, and yet respectful. I think she is not as fragile as she appears. She'll be ok.

Now that you've reminded me of that, I agree that she handled the situation with Tierra really well. That's why I'm even more surprised that she didn't protect herself a little more. It's admirable to open yourself up make the effort to trust someone, but it really has to be tempered with a healthy dose of skepticism as well.

AshLee and girls is not AshLee and Sean. I think that Ash can handle herself easily when with women. She has street instinct that won't fail her, which made her equal to Tierra and able to confront her.

Her insecurities rear their head when she's in a male-female relationship, which taps into different parts of our psychology. The bond mimics that of our earliest attachments, induces the same biochemical reactions, and requires trust and mutual regard. That's where AshLee lost her footing: Not only did she have insecure early attachment patterns, but Sean's the type of guy who makes a girl feel safe and secure, and I think his White Knight syndrome did draw him to Ash, wanting to help her (plus the show's own motives). She was a goner from the beginning. No life-preserver of skepticism for her. The show knew it was going to end messy when they cast her.

really insightful post, veg. you read the contestants well. i hope ashlee will now have developed a bit of skepticism, but not cynicism, regarding men and dating. i think she's great but too naive for her own good in the dating department. her exit monday night is going to be brutal. it will be interesting to see how she is at the WTA. i hope she's recovered well, and if not, does go for some therapy.

I am totally digressing from the current topic here. The preview of the overnight date between Sean and Catherine suggests that she would not want to do it. I think, though, that Catherine would not wish for physical intimacy during the overnight date but would spend the night with Sean. If that is the case, she must have earned plenty of brownie points from all parties at stake--Sean, her family, and Sean's family too.

Kashathediva wrote:And let's not forget about the psych testing, so TPTB probably really targeted those abandonment/insecurity issues for their good use.
It would not surprise me at all if the Machine had actually wanted AshLee for their F2 to potentiate more outrage and drama after Yawn rejects her, but Yawn went another route.

So true Kasha. They have a show to put on. I think they will exploit anything they can to get what they think is a compelling storyline. Anyone who signs up, gets whatever TPTB chooses to dish out. Do I feel sorry for them? Not really. My heart feels their obvious pain and embarrassment sometimes but hey, I don't think any of them were forced to do this show. It's all about choices.

Estahafa, I think you are right that Cat will not want the "intimate" overnight according to what we are shown. No doubt in my mind that she ends up saying yes to just talking.

veg_out wrote:

Archer23 wrote:

avoice wrote:She is very sensitive but she is also very strong. She was the one who faced up to Tierra. Firm, clear, resolute, and yet respectful. I think she is not as fragile as she appears. She'll be ok.

Now that you've reminded me of that, I agree that she handled the situation with Tierra really well. That's why I'm even more surprised that she didn't protect herself a little more. It's admirable to open yourself up make the effort to trust someone, but it really has to be tempered with a healthy dose of skepticism as well.

AshLee and girls is not AshLee and Sean. I think that Ash can handle herself easily when with women. She has street instinct that won't fail her, which made her equal to Tierra and able to confront her.

Her insecurities rear their head when she's in a male-female relationship, which taps into different parts of our psychology. The bond mimics that of our earliest attachments, induces the same biochemical reactions, and requires trust and mutual regard. That's where AshLee lost her footing: Not only did she have insecure early attachment patterns, but Sean's the type of guy who makes a girl feel safe and secure, and I think his White Knight syndrome did draw him to Ash, wanting to help her (plus the show's own motives). She was a goner from the beginning. No life-preserver of skepticism for her. The show knew it was going to end messy when they cast her.

Thank YOU, Veg!!! I realize that all of these women signed on for this show, and they "should" have realized that the premise of the show guarantees that you are more than likely to be hit by lightening than to find your soulmate on this show. But, these women all seem to get sucked into the Bachelor bubble - just like all those that came before them did as well. What they all have in common, no matter how smart, discerning or skepical they might have been when they entered this crazy show, this show MESSES with their heads. And if you don't act like you are crazy about the lead, profess your love for him, and otherwise do or say things that you wouldn't normally do and say out in the real world, you are guaranteed to get an early boot.

So, for all of those reasons plus those above that you laid out, Veg, I can easily see how AshLee got sucked into the Bach bubble and threw all reason out the window. I have a soft spot in my heart for her, and I sincerely hope that she has been getting a lot of positive feedback from people watching the show. And I hope that I see a strong and confident woman when AshLee takes her place on the hot seat at the WTA. From the sounds of it, her exit on Monday night is going to be a brutal one.

Longhornfan wrote:

veg_out wrote:

Archer23 wrote:

avoice wrote:She is very sensitive but she is also very strong. She was the one who faced up to Tierra. Firm, clear, resolute, and yet respectful. I think she is not as fragile as she appears. She'll be ok.

Now that you've reminded me of that, I agree that she handled the situation with Tierra really well. That's why I'm even more surprised that she didn't protect herself a little more. It's admirable to open yourself up make the effort to trust someone, but it really has to be tempered with a healthy dose of skepticism as well.

AshLee and girls is not AshLee and Sean. I think that Ash can handle herself easily when with women. She has street instinct that won't fail her, which made her equal to Tierra and able to confront her.

Her insecurities rear their head when she's in a male-female relationship, which taps into different parts of our psychology. The bond mimics that of our earliest attachments, induces the same biochemical reactions, and requires trust and mutual regard. That's where AshLee lost her footing: Not only did she have insecure early attachment patterns, but Sean's the type of guy who makes a girl feel safe and secure, and I think his White Knight syndrome did draw him to Ash, wanting to help her (plus the show's own motives). She was a goner from the beginning. No life-preserver of skepticism for her. The show knew it was going to end messy when they cast her.

Thank YOU, Veg!!! I realize that all of these women signed on for this show, and they "should" have realized that the premise of the show guarantees that you are more than likely to be hit by lightening than to find your soulmate on this show. But, these women all seem to get sucked into the Bachelor bubble - just like all those that came before them did as well. What they all have in common, no matter how smart, discerning or skepical they might have been when they entered this crazy show, this show MESSES with their heads. And if you don't act like you are crazy about the lead, profess your love for him, and otherwise do or say things that you wouldn't normally do and say out in the real world, you are guaranteed to get an early boot.

So, for all of those reasons plus those above that you laid out, Veg, I can easily see how AshLee got sucked into the Bach bubble and threw all reason out the window. I have a soft spot in my heart for her, and I sincerely hope that she has been getting a lot of positive feedback from people watching the show. And I hope that I see a strong and confident woman when AshLee takes her place on the hot seat at the WTA. From the sounds of it, her exit on Monday night is going to be a brutal one.

Love, love, love it. : )