Re: The Bachelorette 8 - Emily Maynard - Edit Thread - Discussion

[Shelby]

I noticed the 2 clocks... anyone noticed the time? before 12 o'clock (Cinderella)

I have to rewatch the London dates... what time was it for Sean and Jef (Big Ben) and Arie (clock at top of stairs)?

Ugh! I never understood the point of Brad and his therapist...

yeah me either. it was creepy.

i think I saw around midnight with jef. could not read the time with sean

the fairy tale saying ends jef intro, continue in prague, a magazine mentioned it 2 times in an interview with her

at first I thought about Cindirella but they also mixed the hare and the turtle in it somehow, although the 2 stepsisters could have been ryan and kylon. jef mentioned it another time in a PI I think

And FRC is rumoured to be after midnight!

yes because the FRC is done at night. so there is indeed a pattern

[KK4]

Forgive me if this has been discussed (so many threads, so little time); but isn't it the usual story "arc" to have the F1 "overcome" a hurdle of some sort?

yes. perfect example is JP overcoming his fear to love again and not be hurt again. Jef is overcoming to kiss her.

On the other hand, it could be about Arie, and Emily getting over the Cassie situation.

[ILoveCase]

The F1 and F3 usually both have a "story arc" in the Risk/Reward vs. Safety pattern, which I am pretty sure is the pattern we are in this year. F3's risk is either too risky, or the reward isn't worth the trouble which is why they are the F3. The person without any "story arc" is usually the "safe" F2. We already know that Sean is all in and not questioning anything with Emily at this point which is the classic F2 "All In" edit for the risk/reward vs safety F2.

[Tiggerlgh]

The F1 and F3 usually both have a "story arc" in the Risk/Reward vs. Safety pattern, which I am pretty sure is the pattern we are in this year. F3's risk is either too risky, or the reward isn't worth the trouble which is why they are the F3. The person without any "story arc" is usually the "safe" F2. We already know that Sean is all in and not questioning anything with Emily at this point which is the classic F2 "All In" edit for the risk/reward vs safety F2.

I think this will describe the rest of the season perfectly.

[Shelby]

A question for all of you that watch every season of the bach/bachette as I have only watched maybe 5 seasons in all. Is having 3 one on one dates and a group date at this point (meaning right before hometown dates) normal? It just strikes me as odd that she would have a date the day of the RC. I can't remember if it happened in the seasons I've seen. Was wondering if Emily requested it specially, or if I am just wishful thinking. I would post a photo of myself but am on my phone right now so that will have wait until tomorrow.

the lead hardly get a say in the dates. The only time the lead is consulted is at the M&G ceremony when she/he is asked to point the top 4-5. When the top 1 is obvious, they would try to delay a quick connection in order to avoid a done deal too quick. Half of the contestants are picked for their extravagant personality so they can fit a specific role in the season: you will always find the villains, the jealous, the insecure, the non sportif, the weird or the fetish.

Nobody wish to see normal day-to-day people for 8 weeks.

They also have a budget. So the response is no. emily had no choice in the timing and anything after the M&G. Unless the lead has a big issue but then he/she will be asked to deal with. do you really think that she liked kalon from the start and kept him 5 weeks to know him better? He was there for the ride and it was a matter of time that we got the worse of him and the drama. Same with Ryan. There is however the predictable factor to know WHEN they will blow up.

the only difference with a normal movie is the false idea that it is not scripted from the start. People think that it is all natural and there is nobody behind the cameras where in reality the scene is shot again and again until they can play with the sound and images to edit and cut the story they already selected before the show.

many leads after the end of their contract engagement (1 year of silence after the end of the show) explained how they were manipulated, how they were asked to say the same thing again and again so the producers could have the right materials. On top of this Fleiss (main producer) explained many times the behind the scenes, how they cast the contestants etc... RS (who at the beginning of the bach seasons used to be THE king of the spoilers) spoiled us also (a lot assume that old contestants contacted him to share their experience). Although I do not like RS and his ego but I assimilate him as one of the character of this show, definitely not cast but still a character... like a bad cartoon kind of character, not at all mandatory but part of the scenario.

Nothing can remain secret, bits are out in the open and of course 24 seasons is a long time to not be aware of what is going on (24 seasons X 25 contestants + 24 leads = 624 people). not saying that they are all fame whore but in general they all have a great job, nice background, so why a person would take a 5-7 weeks break in their daily life routine to do this show? It is a LONG time break. Their motives must be serious to loose time and money no? Who can afford this period of time without working? They are all extremely good looking, I hardly think that each one of them are that desperate to find a date where they live. So the "coming for the right reasons" does not stand. They ALL come with an agenda: adventure to be part of a TV show, to get the fun of being part of Hollywood (which remains for all of us still a place of excess with glitters/money/beautiful people etc), and some just to promote their company or have the hope to find a way in Hollywood (Jake is the perfect example, Melissa, Ali, Jillian, ChrisL, Ben, Jesse for the leads but we also had some contestants. Do not get me wrong. I am okay that they are all motivated to go on this show with an agenda. I do not see anything wrong with that. In fact I way prefer this versus someone who will truly believe that they will meet the love of their life (I recall one contestant in the prince season at the M&G and I felt so sad for her for selling her car and dismissed her job to be able to buy clothes... but yet again she was cast so we could all relate to her) But to keep it real, to maintain a little bit of the "can be me" factor, they cast normal people. And this is when little miracles happens and this is where personally I get my fun. Those very normal people who still went there with a sense of adventure do really fall in love and we have a trista/ryan, ashley/JP little miracles. The "it could be me" plays a huge part of our fun too. :)

People are tricked because the contestants are not actors and the unpredictability factor makes it fun to the fans to see behind the scripted what is true and what is not, even if it is 10-20%, it is still fun to figure it out.

I would be interested to see a chart of the % of the audience for each season (not per episode). There is a fan base like us but the producer forces are to cast lovable characters and villains characters to keep the audience interested. This is why we will never see ugly people and the more bikinis and muscles, the better. If beautiful body gets to have a nasty mind, the better but not mandatory.

People are not interested in beautiful mind in this show. They want to see sensational and quick short drama stories. I assimilate the villains as the short gossips stories we read in the trash magazines: 1 page and we move on to the next celebrities. Do we know it is true? naaaa. But why people are reading those magazines then? Not to read happy ending stories from rich beautiful people... the life that the large majority will never have. We want them to fail (drugs, gaining weight, loosing their physical appeal, divorce, alcohol, etc) because then we feel way better to think that they may be richer and more beautiful as us, our life is way nicer in the end.

And this is why fans will trash the lead or some contestants. If feels good to do that because at one point they failed from their pedestal of perfect character because they had the very bad taste to not fall for the other character that they decided it was the perfect story in their minds. And that is a total nono. If one of the character decide otherwise, then this character become a villain, a nasty bitch. It does not matter if this person is a very nice person in real life, if feels good to trash this person behind a screen because this person is not real. It is then okay to trash a person that we do not know at all. it is totally secondary that in the end the choice is not ours but the leads. This goes at the end of the equation. How dare did the lead picked another one? The lead must be then ugly, dirty mind, and all the nicest qualities possible.

The bach is only a little window of this world. And this is why we see a lot of fans bashing leads and contestants they never met. It feels good to think that they are miserable because our life is not that bad in comparison.

The fixation to put a contestant on a pedestal is a way to share a bit of adrenaline, a bit of this life that we will never have because we are not rich or enough beautiful (from Hollywood standards) and 99.99% will never have a fairytale. Therefore some fans live within an image of the lead or the contestants. The ideal image of a woman or man that has no fault, is perfect like in the books.

Please note the voluntary use of the term "character" versus person or people. Fleiss is using this term all the time. Wikipedia: A character who stands as a representative of a particular class or group of people is known as a type. Types include both stock characters and those that are more fully individualized. A character who stands as a representative of a particular class or group of people is known as a type. In his book Aspects of the novel, E. M. Forster defined two basic types of characters, their qualities, functions, and importance for the development of the novel: flat characters and round characters.[24] Flat characters are two-dimensional, in that they are relatively uncomplicated and do not change throughout the course of a work. By contrast, round characters are complex and undergo development, sometimes sufficiently to surprise the reader.

The producers are smart people. 24 seasons and still 8 millions of fans hoping that what they see on their TV is real and the love story is real and the camera happens to be there without anybody behind at all, that 1:1 dates are decided on the spot and not decided weeks/months before the casting, that the crew/producers just show up the last minute and say: HAVE FUN GUYS, PRETEND WE ARE NOT THERE!

yeah. right.

[JBF]

Just adding my addition 2 cents, not that I am always responding to the "content" of your posts, but taking scenic detours here and there. Tee hee hee.

A question for all of you that watch every season of the bach/bachette as I have only watched maybe 5 seasons in all. Is having 3 one on one dates and a group date at this point (meaning right before hometown dates) normal? It just strikes me as odd that she would have a date the day of the RC. I can't remember if it happened in the seasons I've seen. Was wondering if Emily requested it specially, or if I am just wishful thinking. I would post a photo of myself but am on my phone right now so that will have wait until tomorrow.

the lead hardly get a say in the dates. The only time the lead is consulted is at the M&G ceremony when she/he is asked to point the top 4-5. When the top 1 is obvious, they would try to delay a quick connection in order to avoid a done deal too quick. Half of the contestants are picked for their extravagant personality so they can fit a specific role in the season: you will always find the villains, the jealous, the insecure, the non sportif, the weird or the fetish.

I have the suspicion that Sean and Arie were selected pre-show as Emily's "maybe"-husband-but-definite-top-four-contenders because of the race-car and the hunky & faithful backstories. Fleiss & Co. knew, regardless if she "fell for" them or not, they were the two average viewers would think are her best matches, not Jef. The fact that these two are the first out of the limos in the TV Grapevine preview like Ashley's Mickey (Cosmo Bachelor) and Ryan P. (Fleiss' initial choice for lead pre-Ben)... and Kiptyn, Chantal and other frontrunner "dumpees"... is not a coincidence. They are also placed as "bookends" in the back row of the meet & greet photo and are kept far apart in the rose-ceremonies, but often back row instead of front. To date, no final one on The Bachelorette has been among the first five to arrive or in a back row that first rose ceremony. (Courtney was back row in Ben's season, but The Bachelor seasons are a different "species" we have yet to figure out since the male leads are so wishy washy in their decision making. Fleiss admitted that four of them were bombs as leads, requiring his staff to "create an eight week show" from scratch. Ben certainly lacked enthusiasm before Shawntel upset the applecart and Courtney slapped him awake about her opinions of whatsherbutt.)

Now there is still a chance, if all spoilers and other indications are actually false, that either Sean or Arie will be the future Mister Maynard. Nothing wrong with their fans rooting them all the way since... heck... she could even do a Jason Mesnick. If that is the case, however, then the relationship was more gradually developing than a "he had me at hello" situation. I can see Arie being genuine with his gooey declarations of "hope we get married in this cathedral" since his handlers are probably spiking his drinks and she is working overtime to make him forget his competition, including his "hoodie up" brobuddy.

I do suspect, though, that any Arie "boomerang return" will more closely resemble Ryan P. in Fiji rather than Reid in Hawaii, the latter being a lot more shocked and upset. He will cry on camera, but also PI about how much he learned from this journey and will be open and ready for LUV. If his performance wows the viewers, he can replace Roberto this January. C'mon... if he and Jef are talking to each other about their dates, you would think Arie would pick up some "signs" early on, even though they will be seperated with the hometowns.

Nobody wish to see normal day-to-day people for 8 weeks.

They also have a budget. So the response is no. emily had no choice in the timing and anything after the M&G. Unless the lead has a big issue but then he/she will be asked to deal with. do you really think that she liked kalon from the start and kept him 5 weeks to know him better? He was there for the ride and it was a matter of time that we got the worse of him and the drama. Same with Ryan. There is however the predictable factor to know WHEN they will blow up.

Kalon M. = Bentley W. = Justin Rated R = Wesssssley H.

Only I think Bentley did some bad $#@% behind the scenes that made both Ashley and Mike Fleiss furious and he had to act as smokescreen for William's emotional break-down after the comedy roast... that is, by "out-roasting" Ashley in PIs, saying he would rather swim in pee that marry her. Note how his hair is never consistent from PI to PI suggesting that some were shot in April rather than March (while the others were overseas) and at least three PIs of Ashley about him were obviously shot in May, probably the same time as the "want to move to Salt Lake" voice-overs.

Oh I am sure some of the drama we see is real and genuine. Ashley was crying about something when Bentley left and at least telling him and viewers that her heart was broken. Funny how we never SEE her burst in tears like we do after listening to William at the roast and when sister Chrystie dub JP as "demure". There was twice the heat with both Willie and JP than Bentley in all previous scenes. Maybe she was crying about Bentley leaving... or maybe not. (This forum is split 50/50 over Bentley, so... yes... many of you reading will disagree with me. That's OK! I still wike ya all.) Ha ha! I still laugh each time I watch it... when she tells the guys in Hong Kong about his visit, they all look mad about something entirely different. I think Mickey just wanted out because he was getting tired of Mister Sunshine and knew he wasn't "the one" anyway. "Pleeeeeeease send me home". (Rolling the eyes)

The way they got Jef to discuss Kalon with her was soooooo blatant. They positioned his date EXACTLY like JP's in Ashley's episode #3, after Bentley and the comedy roast. I really don't even think Emily was half as mad as she pretended to be since Kalon was sooooo not making it to Fantasy Dates anyway. In fact, Ryan sporting the bracelet looks like another producer set up to drive up drama like Russ back in Trista's season, only a belated decision must have been made not to have him give it to her in front of the guys. They had Kalon after all, which was enough drama for that episode.

It is like the business with Ali chasing Justin Rated R up against restaurant doors in Turkey. I suspect that was all a show for Frank, to keep him there and not jump ship for HIS girlfriend. Angry Ali... hear me roar! Do I scare you Frankie? You are getting the next 1 on 1 date (after Ty) and you had better act like a proper "top 3 dumpee" or else.

the only difference with a normal movie is the false idea that it is not scripted from the start. People think that it is all natural and there is nobody behind the cameras where in reality the scene is shot again and again until they can play with the sound and images to edit and cut the story they already selected before the show.

Are you suggesting people don't naturally hit "Cloud 9" on their own? That their connection really isn't "amazing"?

many leads after the end of their contract engagement (1 year of silence after the end of the show) explained how they were manipulated, how they were asked to say the same thing again and again so the producers could have the right materials. On top of this Fleiss (main producer) explained many times the behind the scenes, how they cast the contestants etc... RS (who at the beginning of the bach seasons used to be THE king of the spoilers) spoiled us also (a lot assume that old contestants contacted him to share their experience). Although I do not like RS and his ego but I assimilate him as one of the character of this show, definitely not cast but still a character... like a bad cartoon kind of character, not at all mandatory but part of the scenario.

Nothing can remain secret, bits are out in the open and of course 24 seasons is a long time to not be aware of what is going on (24 seasons X 25 contestants + 24 leads = 624 people). not saying that they are all fame whore but in general they all have a great job, nice background, so why a person would take a 5-7 weeks break in their daily life routine to do this show? It is a LONG time break. Their motives must be serious to loose time and money no? Who can afford this period of time without working? They are all extremely good looking, I hardly think that each one of them are that desperate to find a date where they live. So the "coming for the right reasons" does not stand. They ALL come with an agenda: adventure to be part of a TV show, to get the fun of being part of Hollywood (which remains for all of us still a place of excess with glitters/money/beautiful people etc), and some just to promote their company or have the hope to find a way in Hollywood (Jake is the perfect example, Melissa, Ali, Jillian, ChrisL, Ben, Jesse for the leads but we also had some contestants. Do not get me wrong. I am okay that they are all motivated to go on this show with an agenda. I do not see anything wrong with that. In fact I way prefer this versus someone who will truly believe that they will meet the love of their life (I recall one contestant in the prince season at the M&G and I felt so sad for her for selling her car and dismissed her job to be able to buy clothes... but yet again she was cast so we could all relate to her) But to keep it real, to maintain a little bit of the "can be me" factor, they cast normal people. And this is when little miracles happens and this is where personally I get my fun. Those very normal people who still went there with a sense of adventure do really fall in love and we have a trista/ryan, ashley/JP little miracles. The "it could be me" plays a huge part of our fun too. :)

JP said the dating situation in NYC was getting stale... LOL!

Another possibility: some conestants are trying to prove something to those they know by going on a dating show. Maybe they want people to think they are ready to settle down. (Not surprisingly, a high ratio of contestants do get married within a few years of the show to somebody.) Some of the ladies in particular got out of a bad relationship prior to the show.

People are tricked because the contestants are not actors and the unpredictability factor makes it fun to the fans to see behind the scripted what is true and what is not, even if it is 10-20%, it is still fun to figure it out.

I would be interested to see a chart of the % of the audience for each season (not per episode). There is a fan base like us but the producer forces are to cast lovable characters and villains characters to keep the audience interested. This is why we will never see ugly people and the more bikinis and muscles, the better. If beautiful body gets to have a nasty mind, the better but not mandatory.

People are not interested in beautiful mind in this show. They want to see sensational and quick short drama stories. I assimilate the villains as the short gossips stories we read in the trash magazines: 1 page and we move on to the next celebrities. Do we know it is true? naaaa. But why people are reading those magazines then? Not to read happy ending stories from rich beautiful people... the life that the large majority will never have. We want them to fail (drugs, gaining weight, loosing their physical appeal, divorce, alcohol, etc) because then we feel way better to think that they may be richer and more beautiful as us, our life is way nicer in the end.

"Average Joe" was a good show. It sucked that the lead picked a hunk one season over the nice dumpy guy... and split when he wasn't the studmuffin she thought he was. She was soooo shallow. Yet the concept of that show (NBC?) was fun initially. I also liked "For Love Or Money" (can't remember the exact title). They edited one guy to be slightly seedy wooing the girl, but when she rejected him for money in the finale, he was a blubbering up a storm. He had "fallen" for her after all! Talk about "gotchas"...

I am surprised that after CBS' disgust over ABC's "Glass House" maybe or maybe not ripping off "Big Brother", Fleiss has not once complained about everybody ripping off of him.

And this is why fans will trash the lead or some contestants. If feels good to do that because at one point they failed from their pedestal of perfect character because they had the very bad taste to not fall for the other character that they decided it was the perfect story in their minds. And that is a total nono. If one of the character decide otherwise, then this character become a villain, a nasty bitch. It does not matter if this person is a very nice person in real life, if feels good to trash this person behind a screen because this person is not real. It is then okay to trash a person that we do not know at all. it is totally secondary that in the end the choice is not ours but the leads. This goes at the end of the equation. How dare did the lead picked another one? The lead must be then ugly, dirty mind, and all the nicest qualities possible.

The bach is only a little window of this world. And this is why we see a lot of fans bashing leads and contestants they never met. It feels good to think that they are miserable because our life is not that bad in comparison.

... if not reality stars, we bash politicians. Hey! We gotta have some fun around here!

The fixation to put a contestant on a pedestal is a way to share a bit of adrenaline, a bit of this life that we will never have because we are not rich or enough beautiful (from Hollywood standards) and 99.99% will never have a fairytale. Therefore some fans live within an image of the lead or the contestants. The ideal image of a woman or man that has no fault, is perfect like in the books.

Now don't you start picking on my Trista. Squeely babytalk or not, she looked mighty cute judging the contestants on Bachelor Pad 2.

Please note the voluntary use of the term "character" versus person or people. Fleiss is using this term all the time. Wikipedia: A character who stands as a representative of a particular class or group of people is known as a type. Types include both stock characters and those that are more fully individualized. A character who stands as a representative of a particular class or group of people is known as a type. In his book Aspects of the novel, E. M. Forster defined two basic types of characters, their qualities, functions, and importance for the development of the novel: flat characters and round characters.[24] Flat characters are two-dimensional, in that they are relatively uncomplicated and do not change throughout the course of a work. By contrast, round characters are complex and undergo development, sometimes sufficiently to surprise the reader.

The producers are smart people. 24 seasons and still 8 millions of fans hoping that what they see on their TV is real and the love story is real and the camera happens to be there without anybody behind at all, that 1:1 dates are decided on the spot and not decided weeks/months before the casting, that the crew/producers just show up the last minute and say: HAVE FUN GUYS, PRETEND WE ARE NOT THERE!

yeah. right.

E. M. Forster: "Flat characters are two-dimensional, in that they are relatively uncomplicated and do not change throughout the course of a work."

Unfortunately the editors often make the final two dumpee "flat" regardless how multi-dimensional they are in real life. Poor Sean being judged by his abs alone...

Oh... I guess I'll just threw in the towel this season. Jefie says he believes in the fairy tale, so maybe I will too... just this once. Then after many months of watching him change diapers in Chris Harrison specials like Ryan Sutter, I will say... "OK... on to the next couple. Get these people off my TV screen. They are outstaying their welcome."

[Shelby]

E. M. Forster: "Flat characters are two-dimensional, in that they are relatively uncomplicated and do not change throughout the course of a work."

Unfortunately the editors often make the final two dumpee "flat" regardless how multi-dimensional they are in real life. Poor Sean being judged by his abs alone...

Oh... I guess I'll just threw in the towel this season. Jefie says he believes in the fairy tale, so maybe I will too... just this once. Then after many months of watching him change diapers in Chris Harrison specials like Ryan Sutter, I will say... "OK... on to the next couple. Get these people off my TV screen. They are outstaying their welcome."

oh please don't! unless it is to show your abs! haha

I AM rooting for JEM, but until I see/know they are married, I will cross my fingers and my toes and hope for the best... if not, I will move on to the the next bach in line!

[samcat409]

I AM rooting for JEM, but until I see/know they are married, I will cross my fingers and my toes and hope for the best... if not, I will move on to the the next bach in line!

And thank you for such a thoughtful answer to my question, Shelby.

[Shelby]

I AM rooting for JEM, but until I see/know they are married, I will cross my fingers and my toes and hope for the best... if not, I will move on to the the next bach in line!

And thank you for such a thoughtful answer to my question, Shelby.

you,re welcome

[nd4reality]

The F1 and F3 usually both have a "story arc" in the Risk/Reward vs. Safety pattern, which I am pretty sure is the pattern we are in this year. F3's risk is either too risky, or the reward isn't worth the trouble which is why they are the F3. The person without any "story arc" is usually the "safe" F2. We already know that Sean is all in and not questioning anything with Emily at this point which is the classic F2 "All In" edit for the risk/reward vs safety F2.

Jef has already told Emily both that he has a crush on her and that he is crazy about her. Seems like he is waaay more in than Sean is at this stage. Sean himself has not said anything to Emily herself that indicates that he is all in. Not sure where these are coming from ?
On the contrary Jef is the safe option since he has already declared himself to be very into her. She knows exactly where he stands. No guessing needed.

[mimmi1977]

hey, I am a newbie to this board and have spent days reading everything, but just managed to read this thread, and have to say it's a little gem.

Thanks to all you contributors and especially JBF - your back-catalogue of kowledge is amazing.

Anyway, I want to talk about the kitties in Ep6. Sorry to back track, but I noticed people were amused with how these kept popping up. I have no idea what was in the head of the editing team for that episode but thought I'd share a perspective.

Here's an old Irish saying:p

"Nature breaks out through the eyes of a cat" - we use it to basically say, you cant stop whats part of someones make-up/DNA. Cats kill birds, no amount of domesticity by an owner can stop that.

So I was thinking if some very cute person in the Production team has heard of this before or similar analogies and used cats to foreshadow a few traits in the remaining bachelors that were being uncovered and sealing their rise or fall in the show.

1) Ryan just could not hold back and disguise his ego and the fact he wasn't really there for Emily.
2) Chris really cant measure up to some of the other guys, no matter what his protestations are - the physical challenge of The Games and his desire to be seen as equal to the others - emotionally etc. But in The Games he falls short and he is generally in terms of Emily and what she's looking for, but she's kind and gentle - she gave him the Bravery Cup. She let him down gently and she's going to do this a bit more in the next Epsiode, eventually he is a gonner.

3) Jef - he's a 'good guy' -genuine, caring and getting there with Emily - he's going to get there in the end.

4) Arie out of the blocks fast, taking opportunities to advance things with Emily, very 'full-on' - wall kissing scene. He likes the fast pace, he wants to 'win' her and get back on track after London - late night visit. Maybe there are 'red flags' ahead, who knows.

etc etc, I am sure you can come up with more for the rest.

Anyway, it's just a wee theory..at the end of the day there are lots of cats in Dubrovnic. I just got back from Verona and I didn't see ONE in that city and that's where the Romeo & Juliet balcony is - Bachelorette team, better give that city a miss !

[JBF]

Probably don't have more to add regarding the kitties like I did in previous posts... apart from the bizarre fact that they did show a cat during or before her time with BOTH Ryan (mostly black) and Arie (black & white). During the group date, we saw the tabby twice. Yet the Jef and Chris connections are not as strong as the other two, apart from off-show references linking Jef with cats (and there could be an inside joke here). However, the cats were specifically edited with Ryan and Arie for a reason. What reason is beyond me!! "Nature breaks out..." Ryan's kitty is meowing alone in a dark alley, while Arie's is on a mission, it appears. Hopefully some others can chime in here.

Your other observation... Wow! Fleiss really missed a golden opportunity not shooting in Verona this season, since they made a point of doing R&J this season.

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