Bachelorette 15 - Hannah Brown - General Discussion - *Sleuthing Spoilers* #3

limoncello wrote:Guys I took a few days break from all this drama and now I’m catching up; I am frankly amazed by human nature and its ability to see things completely differently. I am by no means trying to ruffle anybody’s feathers, this is a discussion thread where we are allowed to share our opinions and I really appreciate different POVs on matters. It is nevertheless interesting to see how my views exponentially differ.

IMO, Hannah was undeniably head over heels for Jed and while I’d rather watch the paint dry, I believe there was a lot left out in the editing room, not allowing us to see what was leading to her truly feeling like that. So for me, it really is a moot point to study body language of all 4 HTD pictures of each of them and seeing Tyler’s as super intimate because at the end of the day, she was already zeroed in on Jed (but if I can give my two cents, Tyler’s was speaking more of his feelings than hers. Same in Jed’s pic, she was fully embracing him while he looked kind of meh, more indicating of her fondness for him than vice versa)

Moving on with a genuine question - when was the last time there were so many negative rumors circulating around a contestant, in such intensity like in Jed’s situation, that turned out to be false? I am not asking you to believe all of them, but if you are a decent human being, I don't think people will make an extra effort to go ambush your life - maybe one, but not three. What Haley did, whatever it says about her, provided me enough evidence to at least believe he is not a genuine person and doesn’t have a problem with lying. Even if he didn’t cheat on Hannah (which I don’t believe), the truth is he is a liar. In the best case scenario he lied to either Hannah or Haley, in the worst case he lied to both. And the cherry on top is having the audacity to serenade to Hannah how he would never tell a lie to her at a point where he clearly was aware that he left behind a girl - whether she was his gf or not - to whom he said I love you and promised her to see her on the other side. I don’t know about you, but I don’t take ILYs lightly.

At the same time, I also would disagree with Hannah being robbed of this whole experience because she fell for a guy that was all lies. She claimed at Nick’s podcast that she can read people well, which from my observation, she can’t. She made a mistake of focusing on the wrong people and she picked a guy who sounded like a walking version of country and cheesy pop songs lyrics. This only shows how she needs to mature a bit more to see through the BS and why I don’t see her and Tyler on the same page. But if they are here to prove me wrong, I’m more than happy to watch their journey.

At the end of the day, this discussion will never end because we will always see things differently. In real life, there aren’t sadly always solid proofs to back up cheating allegations, if we talk about the rumors about butt grabbing. For me, Haley was a solid proof enough to perceive him as a person with no integrity. I hope he learns and treats women better. Sorry for the long rant.

Exactly!

That few days' break surely seems to have given you great clarity so wise decision. Though I like all that you've said I would add one observation:

limoncello wrote:snipped
What Haley did, whatever it says about her, provided me enough evidence to at least believe he is not a genuine person and doesn’t have a problem with lying. Even if he didn’t cheat on Hannah (which I don’t believe), the truth is he is a liar. In the best case scenario he lied to either Hannah or Haley, in the worst case he lied to both.
snipped

IMO perhaps the worst case scenario makes sense to me. I've read all of the tabloid stories written based on Haley's interviews and the unedited interviews by Bobby Bones and Reality Steve and it does seem to me that he lied to Haley (in addition to allegedly cheating on her). RS also wrote (in his July 2 column) that he'd been told that Jed did tell Hannah about Haley - AFTER he had proposed to her and she had accepted which means Hannah was deceived into picking him in the first place. It also suggests to me that Jed knew this would be an issue with Hannah so he waited until Hannah couldn't do much about it before he told her. RS went on to say "one specific detail I did hear is that Jed told Hannah they were broken up". Pretty obvious that no one clued Haley in on that detail so - if RS got good information - it suggests that he did indeed lie to Hannah about that also.
JMHO

Dutchy23 wrote:

limoncello wrote:Guys I took a few days break from all this drama and now I’m catching up; I am frankly amazed by human nature and its ability to see things completely differently. I am by no means trying to ruffle anybody’s feathers, this is a discussion thread where we are allowed to share our opinions and I really appreciate different POVs on matters. It is nevertheless interesting to see how my views exponentially differ.

IMO, Hannah was undeniably head over heels for Jed and while I’d rather watch the paint dry, I believe there was a lot left out in the editing room, not allowing us to see what was leading to her truly feeling like that. So for me, it really is a moot point to study body language of all 4 HTD pictures of each of them and seeing Tyler’s as super intimate because at the end of the day, she was already zeroed in on Jed (but if I can give my two cents, Tyler’s was speaking more of his feelings than hers. Same in Jed’s pic, she was fully embracing him while he looked kind of meh, more indicating of her fondness for him than vice versa)

Moving on with a genuine question - when was the last time there were so many negative rumors circulating around a contestant, in such intensity like in Jed’s situation, that turned out to be false? I am not asking you to believe all of them, but if you are a decent human being, I don't think people will make an extra effort to go ambush your life - maybe one, but not three. What Haley did, whatever it says about her, provided me enough evidence to at least believe he is not a genuine person and doesn’t have a problem with lying. Even if he didn’t cheat on Hannah (which I don’t believe), the truth is he is a liar. In the best case scenario he lied to either Hannah or Haley, in the worst case he lied to both. And the cherry on top is having the audacity to serenade to Hannah how he would never tell a lie to her at a point where he clearly was aware that he left behind a girl - whether she was his gf or not - to whom he said I love you and promised her to see her on the other side. I don’t know about you, but I don’t take ILYs lightly.

At the same time, I also would disagree with Hannah being robbed of this whole experience because she fell for a guy that was all lies. She claimed at Nick’s podcast that she can read people well, which from my observation, she can’t. She made a mistake of focusing on the wrong people and she picked a guy who sounded like a walking version of country and cheesy pop songs lyrics. This only shows how she needs to mature a bit more to see through the BS and why I don’t see her and Tyler on the same page. But if they are here to prove me wrong, I’m more than happy to watch their journey.

At the end of the day, this discussion will never end because we will always see things differently. In real life, there aren’t sadly always solid proofs to back up cheating allegations, if we talk about the rumors about butt grabbing. For me, Haley was a solid proof enough to perceive him as a person with no integrity. I hope he learns and treats women better. Sorry for the long rant.

Exactly!

Yaassssss!

Lucas15 wrote:That few days' break surely seems to have given you great clarity so wise decision. Though I like all that you've said I would add one observation:

limoncello wrote:snipped
What Haley did, whatever it says about her, provided me enough evidence to at least believe he is not a genuine person and doesn’t have a problem with lying. Even if he didn’t cheat on Hannah (which I don’t believe), the truth is he is a liar. In the best case scenario he lied to either Hannah or Haley, in the worst case he lied to both.
snipped

IMO perhaps the worst case scenario makes sense to me. I've read all of the tabloid stories written based on Haley's interviews and the unedited interviews by Bobby Bones and Reality Steve and it does seem to me that he lied to Haley (in addition to allegedly cheating on her). RS also wrote (in his July 2 column) that he'd been told that Jed did tell Hannah about Haley - AFTER he had proposed to her and she had accepted which means Hannah was deceived into picking him in the first place. It also suggests to me that Jed knew this would be an issue with Hannah so he waited until Hannah couldn't do much about it before he told her. RS went on to say "one specific detail I did hear is that Jed told Hannah they were broken up". Pretty obvious that no one clued Haley in on that detail so - if RS got good information - it suggests that he did indeed lie to Hannah about that also.
JMHO

I completely agree with this. There's two potential outcomes still in my mind: (1) I'm going to give the benefit of the doubt IF in case RS has bad information, that Jed proposed had been truthful to Hannah and that he gave all the information to Hannah before he proposed. In this case, Hannah is another Jillian who accepted their F1 because of love. She just broke up with him because of the pressure of public humiliation.

(2) Jed waited until after the proposal duping Hannah all the way to the end. Then what he told her is a watered less than truthful version that Hannah accepted it. She had a tempered happiness because it wasn't a perfect ending but she was okay with it. Moved forward with Jed then s**t hit the fan and Haley's version come out. Hannah confronted Jed with the two versions she's heard and ultimately made the tough decision to break up with him due to mounting pressure and she can never trust the guy. Jed is basically a POS and SCUM who stole this season from Hannah. Hannah is partly to blame because her picker is not mature enough, she was distracted by Luke and fell for her ideal man and ideal story. Yes, she was chosen. She was chosen to be duped.

I hunk the more likely outcome is he 2nd one but can't wait for the next 3 weeks!

Lucas15 wrote:That few days' break surely seems to have given you great clarity so wise decision. Though I like all that you've said I would add one observation:

limoncello wrote:snipped
What Haley did, whatever it says about her, provided me enough evidence to at least believe he is not a genuine person and doesn’t have a problem with lying. Even if he didn’t cheat on Hannah (which I don’t believe), the truth is he is a liar. In the best case scenario he lied to either Hannah or Haley, in the worst case he lied to both.
snipped

IMO perhaps the worst case scenario makes sense to me. I've read all of the tabloid stories written based on Haley's interviews and the unedited interviews by Bobby Bones and Reality Steve and it does seem to me that he lied to Haley (in addition to allegedly cheating on her). RS also wrote (in his July 2 column) that he'd been told that Jed did tell Hannah about Haley - AFTER he had proposed to her and she had accepted which means Hannah was deceived into picking him in the first place. It also suggests to me that Jed knew this would be an issue with Hannah so he waited until Hannah couldn't do much about it before he told her. RS went on to say "one specific detail I did hear is that Jed told Hannah they were broken up". Pretty obvious that no one clued Haley in on that detail so - if RS got good information - it suggests that he did indeed lie to Hannah about that also.
JMHO

i think it is double ways.

Haley said she was afraid of how mags would tell her story and she wanted to control the media by telling her story in interviews. She waited mid-season to do her media tour and did not come out before the premiere like she should have done. if she was serious about him, she should have refuse to remain his GF and break with him before the premiere. she is 50/50 responsible of the mess as a compliant complice in this by letting him go in this franchise with a risk. This IS a dating show, not a fishing party. She accepted to continue dating him when he gave her a way out.

Jed (maybe) thought that the night they finally were alone was not appropriate to talk about Haley and he waited to tell her when he was sure hannah understood that he proposed and loved HER, not haley who was not the one he proposed, was (maybe) not serious with Haley (serious enough to propose).

Jed and hannah did not have much time in Greece to speak alone. I am sure he was hoping for an explanation with Haley at his return, a mature conversation between 2 adults that unfortunately never happened because haley refused to answer the phone..... I am sure it was not planned that jed fell in love and I am positive that he fell in love because if it was play he would not have proposed. He would have find a way to escape a la Cassie.

For me it was a big spider web between hannah he loved and Haley he did not anymore (IMO if he did, he would never have fall in love with hannah, so for me it was not serious for him with Haley). So he had a recent fragile 2-3 months relationship with Hannah and a 4 months girlfriend he needed to break up..... but poop came out in medias (halley/RS/people mag). My take is that Hannah went pissed off and hell broke down with this Nashville breakup we will see a la arie/becca (even if situation different, the taping will be the same IMO). IMO it was a tricky situation to fall in love with Hannah and probably (assumption here) not knowing how to handle the situation with cameras around, falling in love and yet still have baggage at home to handle.

I am a bit tired to justify myself again and again but to avoid confusion I will say it again: I am in the sleuthing mode. I do not approve Jed in a way that even if he did not believe in the process before the premiere (like the majority of the contestants), he made promises to Haley and did not cut the ties.

As I said already, we cannot control love and when we fall in love. It happens. Generally (not always) people are single and not committed. But it happens in real life that because the relationship is not strong enough (jed and halley did not live together and it was a 4 months recent relationship), then one of the partner fall in love with another person. This is not a unique situation. Here, no marriage, no kids, no house, they were together less than 4 months and did not live together. Sad for Halley if she was in love with jed and this was not reciprocated. But in my opinion this media tour looks way too nicely orchestrated and I think Halley is far from being an angel in this mess. JMO

All in all, the only thing that jed did not do correctly is to cut the tie way before going to the show with Haley and let her think that he would come back to her. Everything looks like he was a player with Haley and maybe with Hannah... but then we have to wait a bit more to know his version but also all the sordid details that inevitably will come out at the FRC by RS and rag mags.

Still a couple of weeks of media poop. I do not envy anyone involved.  

ALL my opinion

SarahD wrote:
snipped
(2) Jed waited until after the proposal duping Hannah all the way to the end. Then what he told her is a watered less than truthful version that Hannah accepted it. She had a tempered happiness because it wasn't a perfect ending but she was okay with it. Moved forward with Jed then s**t hit the fan and Haley's version come out. Hannah confronted Jed with the two versions she's heard and ultimately made the tough decision to break up with him due to mounting pressure and she can never trust the guy. Jed  is basically a POS and SCUM who stole this season from Hannah. Hannah is partly to blame because her picker is not mature enough, she was distracted by Luke and fell for her ideal man and ideal story.  Yes, she was chosen. She was chosen to be duped.  

I [think] the more likely outcome is he 2nd one but can't wait for the next 3 weeks!

I think so too with one slight tweak. IMO Hannah accepted the story that Jed told her about Haley but with certain reservations (because he wasn't forthcoming earlier); this is why she seemed a bit out of sorts in the early days of interviews. Then the People Magazine article came out and she realized the extent that Jed had misrepresented the relationship and broke the engagement but kept a door open to continuing the relationship. Then RS published his interview with Haley and it surfaced that Jed had actually cheated on Haley with "Barbie" and that was the last straw for Hannah who broke all ties to Jed as a result.

HEA wrote:Haley said she was afraid of how mags would tell her story and she wanted to control the media by telling her story in interviews. She waited mid-season to do her media tour and did not come out before the premiere like she should have done. if she was serious about him, she should have refuse to remain his GF and break with him before the premiere. she is 50/50 responsible of the mess as a compliant complice in this by letting him go in this franchise with a risk. This IS a dating show, not a fishing party. She accepted to continue dating him when he gave her a way out.

Jed and hannah did not have much time in Greece to speak alone. I am sure he was hoping for an explanation with Haley at his return, a mature conversation between 2 adults that unfortunately never happened because haley refused to answer the phone..... I am sure it was not planned that jed fell in love and I am positive that he fell in love because if it was play he would not have proposed. He would have find a way to escape a la Cassie.

IMO, it was not up to Haley to contact Jed when he got home. It was all on him. She may have agreed with him going on the show but he told her he would come back to her. If in fact, he and Hannah did have a SHV in LA the end of May, there weren't a whole lot of days that he was even in Nashville.

For the first bolded above, Haley could not have broken off with Jed before the premiere. He wasn't home yet. I think that was a travel day. Hannah did not do the normal premiere day after press until later in the week (GMA on May 16th). The FRC was only 2 or 3 days before the premiere.

As for the 2nd bolded. From what I read about the RS interview, they first saw each other at a bar and he tried calling her the next day but she was on the phone with her mother. Evidently her friends interrupted their meeting at the bar and got her out of there. IMO, I am guessing that she figured if he really wanted to talk to her, he would call again which he never did. Then they next saw each other at CMA Fest which was the weekened of June 6 - 10. The episode premiere was May 13th so they would have arrived back in the USA sometime before the 16th as that was Hannah's first appearance on GMA. Jed had a good 2 weeks to actually call Haley to have that mature conversation. He only called her because he saw her in a bar. IMO he was trying to smooth things over with her to keep her quiet.

I totally do not think he fell in love with Hannah. I just don't see it. And, it isn't because I'm hoping for Tyler. I actually would prefer she end up with no one and do some self reflection before getting into another relationship.

HavaDrPepper wrote:

HEA wrote:Haley said she was afraid of how mags would tell her story and she wanted to control the media by telling her story in interviews. She waited mid-season to do her media tour and did not come out before the premiere like she should have done. if she was serious about him, she should have refuse to remain his GF and break with him before the premiere. she is 50/50 responsible of the mess as a compliant complice in this by letting him go in this franchise with a risk. This IS a dating show, not a fishing party. She accepted to continue dating him when he gave her a way out.

Jed and hannah did not have much time in Greece to speak alone. I am sure he was hoping for an explanation with Haley at his return, a mature conversation between 2 adults that unfortunately never happened because haley refused to answer the phone..... I am sure it was not planned that jed fell in love and I am positive that he fell in love because if it was play he would not have proposed. He would have find a way to escape a la Cassie.

IMO, it was not up to Haley to contact Jed when he got home.  It was all on him. She may have agreed with him going on the show but he told her he would come back to her.  If in fact, he and Hannah did have a SHV in LA the end of May, there weren't a whole lot of days that he was even in Nashville.

For the first bolded above, Haley could not have broken off with Jed before the premiere. He wasn't home yet.  I think that was a travel day.  Hannah did not do the normal premiere day after press until later in the week (GMA on May 16th).  The FRC was only 2  or 3 days before the premiere.

As for the 2nd bolded.  From what I read about the RS interview, they first saw each other at a bar and he tried calling her the next day but she was on the phone with her mother.  Evidently her friends interrupted their meeting at the bar and got her out of there.  IMO, I am guessing that she figured if he really wanted to talk to her, he would call again which he never did.  Then they next saw each other at CMA Fest which was the weekened of June 6 - 10.  The episode premiere was May 13th so they would have arrived back in the USA sometime before the 16th as that was Hannah's first appearance on GMA.  Jed had a good 2 weeks to actually call Haley to have that mature conversation.  He only called her because he saw her in a bar.  IMO he was trying to smooth things over with her to keep her quiet.

I totally do not think he fell in love with Hannah.  I just don't see it.  And, it isn't because I'm hoping for Tyler.  I actually would prefer she end up with no one and do some self reflection before getting into another relationship.

Haley said in an interview that Jed tried to phone her but she did not answer. that is one of her version anyway. if she saw jed on her phone, that means he tried to reach her. if she did not call back, that was her choice but jed cannot be blamed for not trying.
Jed told Haley he was going to the show before the premiere, she did not find out at the premiere. Yes Jed played with her feelings but she is also an adult and she had the full authority to make a stop or tell him that she did not want him to go. she didn't. she is an adult, not a puppet. she could have put an ultimatum. she didn't.

JMO

@HEA Have you actually listened to Haley’s interviews? Specifically RS?

Two things come to mind:
First, this is no longer a dating show. IMOAA.  Maybe in its inception, it had more depth and substance to lead an audience to believe that, but even its creators admit it was a sociological experiment to see the entire process of how ________ numbers of individuals would react going through an elimination process. ( can’t even believe I am attaching the words depth and substance to this food fight of a show)
It appears to me, the main motivating factor of coming on the show is too increase name brand and marketing value.
Second, IMO, no matter who believes whom or what side of the blanket you’re on, this is an old and repetitive theme.  It’s not even the first time a cast person has made it to the finals and had a relationship at home.
 I can actually think of one incident where a cast person made it to F1 with a long standing relationship waiting at home and several other seasons where the main fell into a relationship pre ATFR with someone not even related to this show!!
It’s hard to climb into someone’s shoes and predict how they should react.  IMO that’s speculation based on our own personality. Speculation is fun and great, but it might not have much substance as to how someone else did, should, would or could act. Jmoaa

Lucas15 wrote:

SarahD wrote:
snipped
(2) Jed waited until after the proposal duping Hannah all the way to the end. Then what he told her is a watered less than truthful version that Hannah accepted it. She had a tempered happiness because it wasn't a perfect ending but she was okay with it. Moved forward with Jed then s**t hit the fan and Haley's version come out. Hannah confronted Jed with the two versions she's heard and ultimately made the tough decision to break up with him due to mounting pressure and she can never trust the guy. Jed  is basically a POS and SCUM who stole this season from Hannah. Hannah is partly to blame because her picker is not mature enough, she was distracted by Luke and fell for her ideal man and ideal story.  Yes, she was chosen. She was chosen to be duped.  

I [think] the more likely outcome is he 2nd one but can't wait for the next 3 weeks!

I think so too with one slight tweak. IMO Hannah accepted the story that Jed told her about Hannah but with certain reservations (because he wasn't forthcoming earlier); this is why she seemed a bit out of sorts in the early days of interviews. Then the People Magazine article came out and she realized the extent that Jed had misrepresented the relationship and broke the engagement but kept a door open to continuing the relationship. Then RS published his interview with Haley and it surfaced that Jed had actually cheated on Haley with "Barbie" and that was the last straw for Hannah who broke all ties to Jed as a result.

I agree with your version. I also did not feel Hannah was extremely happy when she came back from the finale and started doing interviews.. She says she's happy with the outcome but it's "tempered." It was particularly noticeable in the Build Series and Viall Files interviews that I definitely noticed Hannah's "tempered" happiness. Very different from Rachel, from Becca from Jojo's reactions when asked if they're happy. I agree with you that the RS interview is probably what tipped her over. When she posted the "snitches" comment, I felt she was going to standby him. But then the RS interview with another cheating story came out, thereafter she posted the "preaching" post, where you can really tell the stress and anger getting to her. It was after the breakup rumors that I kind of felt there was a load off her shoulders.

HEA wrote:

*snipped*

Jed and hannah did not have much time in Greece to speak alone. I am sure he was hoping for an explanation with Haley at his return, a mature conversation between 2 adults that unfortunately never happened because haley refused to answer the phone..... I am sure it was not planned that jed fell in love and I am positive that he fell in love because if it was play he would not have proposed. He would have find a way to escape a la Cassie.

I know you've been trying to defend Jed and I respect your opinions, but if you're saying you are only sleuthing and not on anyone's side, then IMO it would be really fair if you treated all the information that was put out there in equal fashion.

Jed called Haley after they ran into each other at CMA, after two weeks of radio silence from Jed's side. When he finally had to face her, he said he didn't contact her because he didn't know what to say. Seeing such cowardice, I am not really surprised she didn't want to pick up his call anymore. It makes a vast difference between calling her after being caught versus saying he tried to call her once he got home to explain but she didn't pick up, which was in my humble opinion, not the case.