Re: Nick Viall - Bachelor 21 - FAN Forum - Discussion #25

[Guest]

Aww thanks, everyone! You are all so sweet. I really appreciate the warm welcome and generous comments.

[ukglasgowkiiss]

“@notarose
As to changing the format of the show, I think viewers like the predictability of it all. I do think having 2 Bach break up in succession may result in a switcharoo where the next season may be Bette. There are a few things in Bach that aren't in Bette like having to ask all HTD parents for possible permission to get engaged which puts families in a very awkward position. Also after that the lead is picking out a ring with viewers guessing who the ring is for which makes the ring a symbol of controversy. Taking away the possibility of an engagement does make it easier for a final couple but if there was no engagement it becomes another dating show and if so a lot would have to change. JMO“
Yes I think a switcheroo may be likely, we shall see. It seems they like the formula of the proposal, I was thinking of ways it cd change without really believing they wd ever change the process too much. Imo just thinking out loud~It depends how much the audience want the couples to succeed, will people stop watching if they know the couple never lasts post show on tb. I think the main audience, myself included, like the hea proposal element, to suspend belief that the whole thing can work.
So I think they should keep the proposal there in some way but make the process longer & more realistic, more time together, more time itrw then the proposal. Just an idea, after the f1 is chosen & as it airs the happy couple go away together for weeks not a weekend. Then they could do the rest as usual, then if it works out they would propose during ATFR. Would still be an element of suspense, people betting on who will last.
I like the current formula but dont like that tb couples fail so much. Still feeling so sad about Nick & Vanessa today. I am surprised how sad I feel about it, but suppose that is how it goes if you invest into a love story & care about Nick.
I have been wondering if they knew for a while but waited for their appearance on Carly & Evans wedding to air first. We barely got any shots of Nicks face so am thinking the show knew by way it was edited.
All imo.

[Skates]

Hi everyone!

I'm a new poster here but I've been following this forum for the last few months and have really enjoyed reading everyone's comments about Nick and Vanessa's relationship. As a Nick fan, it's always been nice to come on this forum and read the opinions of people who genuinely seem to care about him and understand him--something that is unfortunately very rare to come across in the social media world. In a way, this forum has been a nice escape for me; a chance to get away from the negativity that surrounds Nick (and Vanessa) and not have to worry about hateful trolls bashing Nick for ignorant and/or unfounded reasons...so I just want to thank everyone for that.

Now,  I know that my timing of joining the conversation might be a little strange but like many people here, I'm also fairly heartbroken at the news that Nick and Vanessa broke up and I feel like this is a safe place for me to vent and share my thoughts. First I want to start by saying that I still believe that the love between Nick and Vanessa was always 100% real and I will never think or say otherwise. What I saw on the show were two passionate, realistic and pragmatic people who saw all of the qualities that they were looking for in each other and therefore wanted to take the leap of faith of getting engaged and trying to see if they could defy the odds and build a life with each other in the outside world. That being said, it was also clear on the show that they knew exactly what their barriers and points of conflict would be in the relationship; they knew that the living situation would be a point of contention and Nick even expressed that he foresaw that there would be some problems and conflict in the relationship simply because he recognized that they are both stubborn, passionate people who want what they want and would therefore have troubles truly compromising as a result. In addition, Nick and Vanessa clearly talked about their plans for the future while on the show which meant that that they obviously had an inkling of how things would be if they continued to pursue a relationship; Nick said at the No Better You foundation that Vanessa even mentioned the idea for her charity while they were in the fantasy suite and I'm sure that Nick, in return, was very open and honest with Vanessa about his L.A. business ventures and his ambitions of making it in the entertainment world. Even their proposal, as romantic as it was, demonstrated that they were aware of the potential red flags and struggles that would arise from being together in the real world; in their speeches, Vanessa flat-out said that she knew that "things were not going to be easy" and when Nick said that he was fighting his feelings for Vanessa, I don't believe that he was only referring to the fact that he had 29 other women to manage-- I think that he was also fighting his sense of logic in choosing her given that he was very aware of how difficult their relationship was going to be on the outside world. And yet, despite everything, they still chose each other--they chose to follow their hearts and at least give their love a fair shot. I think that's why I fell in love with their love story; when I watched them together I saw two people who were open and honest and who chose each other with eyes wide open to the fact that the odds were stacked against them. They knew going into it that their love was never going to be a fairytale which is why I know that it was real. They didn't fall for the fairytale, they fell for each other...but unfortunately, as I know they realized, love isn't enough--especially when you're a couple in the public eye.

Like I said, I think that Nick and Vanessa foresaw a lot of the challenges that they would face while they were on the show but I also strongly believe that the pressure that comes from being a Bachelor couple post-show was what ultimately doomed them, both from the start and in the end. Figuring out the living situation was never going to be easy but to try and figure out everything when you're on the receiving end of a tsunami of negativity and backlash from outside forces probably made all of their challenges/issues a million times more stressful for them (especially for Vanessa who had very vocal about the fact that she struggled with dealing with the social media negativity). Also, because of their weird situation, they were never afforded the luxury of a honeymoon phase which meant that they were never able to experience a period pure bliss that really, in my opinion, would have at the very least given them a sense of hope in a borderline hopeless world. Let's remember that the foundation of their relationship was built on Vanessa having to watch Nick make-out with multiple women while he was falling in love with her, some of whom Vanessa didn't get along with in the house. I think that the PTSD that they suffered from the nature of being on the show must have only added another layer of stress and tension in the relationship and I just think that their passionate, realistic personalities prevented them from being able to pretend that the experience didn't leave a bad taste in their mouths (and was also probably one of the main reasons why Nick felt compelled to distance himself from the Bachelor as much as possible). And then there was the pressure and added stress of having to deal with the level of public interest and scrutiny that also must of taken their toll on them, especially on Nick, over time. I agree with everyone who says that Nick is an introvert and a private person at heart and so I definitely think that it was extra difficult for him to be involved a public relationship, particularly one of that magnitude. When I listened to his podcast with Juliet Litman, I was struck by just how anxious and paranoid he seemed to be about accidentally making headlines. He even talked about the experience of having people taking photographs of him and Vanessa together on an airplane in order to make money off their relationship... and I imagine that the thought made him sick to his stomach. I'm sorry to say it but if I'm being totally honest, I just don't think that Nick was ever cut out to have a relationship in the public eye; as someone who seems to put a high moral value on authenticity, honesty and personal privacy, Nick just never had the right personality to be able to "play a role' and embrace the nature of their public situation. In fact, I'm sure that the very notion of having to play a role in general probably turned him off entirely which is possibly a large part of the reason why he barely spoke about his relationship with Vanessa in public and rarely posted about her on social media. He was trying to control the situation as best as he could by not feeding the beast, so to speak...but again, Nick's inability to live in denial probably also hindered his ability to get out of his head and I imagine that the whole situation exhausted him which is probably why he always seemed a little drained whenever him and Vanessa were at public events together (such as the No Better You fundraiser).

But of course, if Nick and Vanessa had a solid foundation then maybe Nick would have seemed happier because he would have been happier in the relationship. However, what I argue is that they never even had a chance of building that foundation in a toxic world with all of the prying eyes and hateful sounds echoing on the internet.

And then there is the guilt factor which I do believe is a huge potential factor as to why Nick never seemed to be totally comfortable in the relationship (at least in the public eye). Nick sort of acknowledged it in the podcast with Juilet Litman when he recognized how difficult the situation is for Vanessa--how she had to go from seeing him as the Bachelor to her seeing him as an equal while making sacrifices and all sorts of crazy decisions...and then he trailed off before he could delve into his feelings on the matter. Knowing Nick, I genuinely believe that he felt the burden and the weight of Vanessa's sacrifices; and knowing Nick, I'm sure that he carried that burden with him everyday and tried to combat it by being caring, affectionate and patient with her (all adjectives that Vanessa had used multiple times to describe Nick). Knowing Nick, I'm sure that he did feel somewhat responsible for the media backlash that was hurting her; and knowing Nick, I have no doubt that he felt a sense of internal guilt over the idea of taking her away from her family and country in order for her to be with him. And not only that, but I'm sure that the guilt also spilled into his professional life as well; I can easily see him thinking "crap, I have a fiance who has left her entire life behind in order to be with me and here I am focusing on building my career/ following my dreams" and then inevitably feeling upset in general at the idea that the existence of that burden was messing with ability to be fully happy with the opportunities presented to him. I'm sure it didn't make him happy that Vanessa had to make business calls in the late/wee hours of the morning due to the 3 hour time zone difference between L.A. and Montreal. As a proud Canadian myself, I love the fact that Vanessa is also proud of her native country...but I can't say that a part of me didn't die a little bit inside every time that Vanessa talked about Montreal/Canada being her home, and I wouldn't be surprised if Nick felt the same way as I did. Contrary to popular belief (at least on social media), I don't think that Nick is a heartless, famewhoring jerk which is I'm 100% confident that Vanessa's struggles only made him feel more helpless in the relationship and was probably a huge deciding factor on why they ultimately decided to break up. In the end, I do think that they wanted different things; I do believe that Vanessa's heart was in Montreal and that Nick's life is in L.A.--and I think that deep down they knew that they were travelling in different directions in terms of what they are currently looking for in life. Vanessa is clearly passionate about building her charity and continuing to work with the special needs community in Montreal...whereas  Nick is clearly passionate about pursing his entrepreneurial pursuits and making a name for himself in the entertainment world in L.A.

Today, I randomly came across the epilogue of LaLa Land on Youtube and I decided to watch it again (and if you haven't seen the movie then I suggest that you stop reading now as I'm about to spoil the ending). Basically, the premise of the movie is about a jazz-enthusiast (who wants to start his own jazz club) and a frustrated, aspiring actress who fall in love and help each other follow their dreams, only to realize that their relationship was also keeping them from being fully committed to finding success in their respective endeavours. In the end, they decide to go their separate ways in order to focus on their careers even though they clearly still love each other. Fast forward five years later, we see that the jazz-enthusiast has realized his dream of opening his own jazz club while the aspiring actress is now a famous actress and is married with kids. The last sequence of the movie shows the jazz-enthusiast and the actress looking at each other from across the crowded room...and them giving each other a warm nod and an encouraging smile. It was heartbreaking but it also reminded me of Nick and Vanessa in a way; in their post-Bachelor world, Nick and Vanessa are blessed with so many opportunities to follow their dreams and, like the jazz-enthusiast and the actress, I'm sure that they both encouraged each other to do so. I'm sure that in the fantasy suite Nick told Vanessa that she would be more than capable of being able to start her charity and going off of what Vanessa said in an interview, it seems that Nick actively helped her along the way. Likewise, I'm sure that Vanessa was deeply supportive of Nick with the Polished Gent and all of his other endeavours in the same way that she was supportive of him when he was on DWTS. I'm sure that both of them understood that they could not have been able to realize their dreams without each other's support. But now that Vanessa's charity is up and running and now that Nick is in the thick of his own career pursuits (ie. he recently booked a movie) I can see them wanting to focus on following their dreams without worrying about potentially holding each other back.

I guess what I'm saying is that five years from now, I can see them smiling and nodding encouragingly at each other from across a crowded room as if to say "we did it". Who knows what the future holds for them but I do believe that their joint statement was spoken from the heart--that they are parting ways with love and admiration for each other and that they will always be there for each other no matter what. From beginning to end, Nick and Vanessa have been nothing but genuine and real and I don't see that changing any time soon. Sometimes the best love stories don't end with happily ever after but they do end in a gesture of love. Love may not have been enough for them to make the relationship last but it's nice to think that their love for each other has still managed to endure even through all of the craziness and impossible pressure that was thrown their way while they were still together. Sometimes when you love someone the best way to show your love is to set them free.  
I wish them nothing but the best.

         -  IMO  -        Although Nick and Vanessa have released a joined statement...I don't believe that they have actually emphasized much on the real reasons behind their breakup...the media have added the extra info to come up with a storyline...I don't believe compatibility is an issue...I believe the biggest factors affecting the decisions are constant public scrutiny, the constant mocking on their relationships and change course of plans in their lives...Vanessa has decided to focus on her foundation in Canada and Nick wants to focus his career on working as an actor...maybe Vanessa is not feeling the intensity of the love from Nick at the moment...I saw her tweet on T and D from BIP, she is loving the union between the two... - IMO -

       https://twitter.com/VanessaGrimaldi/status/897635218517102592

        - IMO - It could also be possible that they want to focus on their careers now and thus set aside engagement plans...with the long distance relationships being further strained creating more impact on their SM, they have both decided to make the announcement right now... and, let nature takes its course...I have strong feelings that they may get back together later...I don't believe that their love for each other have suddenly disappeared overnight...both of them are deep thinkers--their chances in case they want to continue with their long distance relationship is to stay off the media...and, making an announcement on breaking the engagement right now is their first step to keeping everything private...until then we won't really know the actual reasons behind everything...    -  IMO -

       - IMO. - The reactions from SM and the press have been horrible (very negative)... it has mostly re-affirmed majority of their conclusions that it is doomed to fail from the start...it is really hard for Nissa to survive through with that kind of environment...I empathise them...but, I wish they could have fought harder... but, I still believe they have both found their soul mates married or not...their connections I am hoping will stay permanently if ever as bff if not lovers...   -  JMO -

[notarose]

@Skates I do think their joint statement was intended to publically finalize a breakup. Like you, I want them to be free of all the negativity, to be regifted their privacy. As a supporter I sometimes found it hard to breath so imagine how much more difficult it has been for them. Whether scrutiny comes from the public or from a partner it has the same effect on a relationship IMO - never good.
I agree with you that love doesn't just disappear. It finds its shape over time.
As to the future, anyone's future, it is always unknown and unpredictable.

[Guest]

 IMO. -    The reactions from SM and the press have been horrible (very negative)... it has mostly re-affirmed majority of their conclusions that it is doomed to fail from the start...it is really hard for Nissa to survive through with that kind of environment...I empathise them...but, I wish they could have fought harder... but, I still believe they have both found their soul mates married or not...their connections I am hoping will stay permanently if ever as bff if not lovers...   -  JMO -

Personally, I just think that some personalities are just not equipped to handle certain situations while other personalities are able to thrive while being thrown in the same situation. I just think that Nick's personality in particular--someone who is a deep-thinker, values authenticity/privacy and who is prone to getting in his own head during stressful situations--was always going to struggle at maintaining the level of positivity and optimism that was required to survive in the face of all of the public scrutiny and adversity. And I wouldn't be surprised if Nick's inner monologue about the entire situation included him wondering if finding love on the Bachelor almost cheapened the relationship in a way; for instance, when talking about his proposal to Vanessa in a podcast interview, I remember Nick mentioning how he didn't think that the proposal was ideal considering that he had just sent Raven home minutes before and was still recovering from that experience. I would imagine that little crazy/unrealistic details like that would only cause some anxiety to a mind like Nick's. For better or worse, Nick is an over-thinker and coupled with his realistic nature, I just feel like it was always going to be hard for him to accept certain aspects of finding love on The Bachelor. Hell, even Vanessa had the same struggle on the show; she also proved herself to be an over-thinker like Nick when she made no secret about the fact that she was concerned that Nick was having feelings for other women despite the fact that that is the core concept of the show. Though I understand what people are saying when they believe that Nick and Vanessa were simply incompatible personality-wise (with Nick being an introvert and Vanessa being an extreme extrovert), I personally feel like they actually were fairly compatible in the sense that they seemingly had a deep understanding and comfort level with each other that came from the similarities that stemmed from other aspects of their characters. I always felt like they were well-matched in the sense that they are both very intelligent, passionate, affectionate, realistic, deep-thinking people who are able to communicate their feelings in an open and frank matter while valuing and equating that openness to a level of comfort with each other. When Vanessa's family kept talking about her past heart-break on the hometown date and stressed how difficult that was for her to overcome, I knew that Vanessa was a woman who loves with her entire heart and would be able to match Nick in that regard. And there were other similarities that struck me too; I went back and watched Nick's hometown date on Andi's season and I swear that his introduction to his incredibly large family was so similar to Vanessa's introduction to her family that I had to do a double take and wondered if the editors did that on purpose as a little easter egg for the Bachelor nation historians. Even the fact that their birthdays are only two days apart felt like a weird cosmic sign that implied that they were meant to be and that pointed to their similarities in the process.

However, though I have no doubt that these similarities are what caused them to fall in love with each other, I also think that in a way they also might have driven them apart when faced with the craziness and pressure that stems from being a Bachelor couple in the real world. Because they are both stubborn, deep-thinking, realistic and emotional people, I wouldn't be surprised if many of their normal couple conversations consisted of them overanalyzing the strangeness of their situation and dwelling on the pitfalls of being in a public relationship. I wouldn't be surprised if the intense, emotional, heavy conversations that they had in the last few episodes of the season became a reoccurring theme in their relationship on the outside world and made everything feel more exhausting and tiresome as a result. I don't believe that Nick being an introvert and Vanessa being an extrovert is the core reason why they broke up. I just think that both Nick and Vanessa were always too real for reality TV which is why they had troubles reconciling the strange artificiality of being associated with the Bachelor world while trying to build a life with each other in the midst of all that insanity.

I think that Nick said it best in the podcast that he did with Juliet Litman back in July; he said that the love that you experience on the show is real but that afterwards you are forced to deal with stuff that no couple would have ever thought that they would ever have to deal with. I think that Nick was trying to explain that his love for Vanessa is/was always real but that the external factors that were out of his control were hindering their ability to be truly happy in the relationship. It was never going to be easy for them but I do wonder if things would have been different had they met and fell in love under different circumstances. I'm sure they would still have some of the same issues to overcome but I wonder if they would have been less stressed and more optimistic of their chances were they afforded the luxury of being a normal couple. I know it's all speculation at this point but I just think that it's an interesting thought...

[notarose]

@bluejay271
I saw phemnominal conflict resolution skills in their relationship during the show. I absolutely agree with your writing of their similiarities - intelligent, passionate, affectionate, realistic, deep-thinking.
As to differences, it's my belief that differences are required in a relationship. We have no need to marry ourselves  
As to scrutiny, Nick has his history and it is unchangable.  We all have histories but fortunately most of us are seen as products of our experiences instead of, as in Nick's case, branded. If they had meet elsewhere....would they have? I remember being struck by the fact that Vanessa was there. In today's dating culture people meet anywhere so a prospective match for Nick being on tv was almost "full circle".
I do think everything you have said about Nick bears truth. His nonTV dating life, his work life, his nonfranchise friend circle, have been a vault. I do think he has exceptional fortitude however I also think it unrealistic that anyone have the capacity to maintain well being of self in addition to attempting to protect the well being of another under the conditions Nick has been subject to. Just human in an inhumane environment.
Nick said it best when he said "All I see is the future". That is deep profound love, the want to accept a person as is in that moment and design daily life always looking forward. It is a choice. I so look forward to seeing who will live that priority with him.

[Guest]

@bluejay271
I saw phemnominal conflict resolution skills in their relationship during the show. I absolutely agree with your writing of their similiarities - intelligent, passionate, affectionate, realistic, deep-thinking.
As to differences, it's my belief that differences are required in a relationship. We have no need to marry ourselves  
As to scrutiny, Nick has his history.  We all have histories but fortunately most of us are seen as products of our experiences instead of, as in Nick's case, branded. If they had meet elsewhere....would they have? I remember being struck by the fact that Vanessa was there. In today's dating culture people meet anywhere so a prospective match for Nick being on tv was almost "full circle".
I do think everything you have said about Nick bears truth. His nonTV dating life, his work life, his nonfranchise friend circle, have been a vault. I do think he has exceptional fortitude however I also think it unrealistic that anyone have the capacity to maintain well being of self in addition to attempting to protect the well being of another under the conditions Nick has been subject to. Just human in an inhumane environment.

I think that Nick and Vanessa had a good mix of similarities and differences. I just think that the combination of those similarities and differences were never going to fuse very well under the conditions of the inhumane environment that you refer to. Clearly there were other couples who were able to navigate the post-Bachelor/ette craziness with success...but I just think that Nick and Vanessa were just a different brand of couple that had their own issues and baggage coming into the relationship and I think that their struggles were only magnified by the situation that they were in. I do believe that Nick is a strong person and I admire him for that. However, I just think that he is also an emotional person (especially when it comes to relationships) so when he feels something then he is not one to pretend that those feelings don't exist...and given that Vanessa is the same way, I'm sure that they had a lot heavy conversations about their feelings that eventually brought them to the conclusion that their best course of action was to let each other go before they started to resent each other.

[notarose]

@bluejay271
I saw phemnominal conflict resolution skills in their relationship during the show. I absolutely agree with your writing of their similiarities - intelligent, passionate, affectionate, realistic, deep-thinking.
As to differences, it's my belief that differences are required in a relationship. We have no need to marry ourselves  
As to scrutiny, Nick has his history.  We all have histories but fortunately most of us are seen as products of our experiences instead of, as in Nick's case, branded. If they had meet elsewhere....would they have? I remember being struck by the fact that Vanessa was there. In today's dating culture people meet anywhere so a prospective match for Nick being on tv was almost "full circle".
I do think everything you have said about Nick bears truth. His nonTV dating life, his work life, his nonfranchise friend circle, have been a vault. I do think he has exceptional fortitude however I also think it unrealistic that anyone have the capacity to maintain well being of self in addition to attempting to protect the well being of another under the conditions Nick has been subject to. Just human in an inhumane environment.

I think that Nick and Vanessa had a good mix of similarities and differences. I just think that the combination of those similarities and differences were never going to fuse very well under the conditions of the inhumane environment that you refer to. Clearly there were other couples who were able to navigate the post-Bachelor/ette craziness with success...but I just think that Nick and Vanessa were just a different brand of couple that had their own issues and baggage coming into the relationship and I think that their struggles were only magnified by the situation that they were in. I do believe that Nick is a strong person and I admire him for that. However, I just think that he is also an emotional person (especially when it comes to relationships) so when he feels something then he is not one to pretend that those feelings don't exist...and given that Vanessa is the same way, I'm sure that they had a lot heavy conversations about their feelings that eventually brought them to the conclusion that their best course of action was to let each other go before they started to resent each other.

timing with integrity

[sdmom]

Vanessa's first IG post since break up    
Still love her.

https://www.instagram.com/p/BYWcor-B9Fl/?taken-by=vanessagrimaldi30

[Julie81]

Such a sad pic. Nick liked it as well.

[Mgrissom]

I was fine with the break-up until I saw Vanessa's IG - I cried. It is obvious that she wanted a lasting relationship and thought she had found it. In her own words, she is very emotional. Nick liked it, he cares for her, it just wasn't working - so sad.

[Billysmom]

It's unfortunate the school year already started...work can be a welcome distraction.... But she has NBY, and maybe she can sub at gac...?

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