Rachel Lindsay - Bachelor 21 - *Sleuthing Spoilers*

It's all interpretation and of course those conversations were all edited so it's hard to really say but yes, we can only go by what was shown (case in point, in his People blog the day after his date with Vanessa, Nick said they spoke about their families, hopes for the futures, relationships, etc. We didn't see that).

And we know there was stuff edited out when Vanessa said to him, when confronting him about his behavior with Corinne that he had said to her how he knew being the Bachelor he would be judged for the things he said and did. Again, didn't see that.

But all that aside, regarding the chasing/not chasing, for me what most stands out is that Vanessa was the only woman who had a date every single week. She was on a group date, then her 1 on 1, then on every group date until her second 1 on 1 and then of course HTD and everything else. And as we know, when she was on a losing team on a group date, Nick changed the rules.

In other words, there wasn't one point where Nick didn't see and spend some time with Vanessa as opposed to Rachel's not being on any dates the week right after she received the FIR. Now I can buy holding off on a 1 on 1 but I can't buy the Nick that I saw on two seasons of the Bachelorette, who's pretty unapologetic when pursuing someone, if he was really chasing Rachel so much, would just not bother even seeing her for a whole week until the cocktail party.

IMO, there is no question that Nick liked Rachel. That he respected her, was physically attracted to her and just all around thought she was an amazing woman. That in my opinion, goes without saying. And I absolutely believe he enjoyed his time with her. However, what he seemed to have with Vanessa was an immediate emotional connection - it wasn't physical or just passion which is why I disagree that it was lust or there was no fun or friendship.

The fact is we all see things differently and different relationships appeal to different people. There are many today who think Andi and Nick might have been married by now if she'd picked him. Now I don't necessarily agree with that but I know while watching her season I saw huge glaring red signals with in her relationship with Josh. And of course some loved them and thought they were amazing. So it's all subjective really.

As I've said, I like Rachel and I did enjoy her and Nick's interaction but just like Sharleen, as great as they were were, I did still see the difference between their interactions and Nick's with Vanessa and why he (if we believe spoilers) ultimately chose Vanessa.

IMO, Nick isn't short on questions with any of the women on his radar. It's interesting what they have chosen to show from each individual date. I'm really looking forward to tonight's date with Kristina.

GuardianAngel wrote:I wouldn't say Nick was chasing Rachel. IMO while watching, I felt he was trying to start a conversation because she really wasn't talking. At the same time, he was making her feel comfortable. For me, that wasn't a chase at all. IMO It was Nick that was trying to get more out of her.

I would point out the difference between Danielle M who is very quiet and Nick is working drawing her out in conversation but without much of an interest/passion/emotion and his interaction with Rachel where it's not just with his conversation but with much more. IMHO the difference between "drawing her out" vs. "chasing/pursuing someone he's very interested in"

With Rachel he leans in and initiates physical contact - like putting his arms around her when walking or leaning in and stroking her arm when they are chatting during group dates, he's also much more animated, with emotions on his face and he's nervous in some moments with Rachel, e.g. when he is giving her the FIR, when he accidentally talks about meeting her dad, when he's waiting for her to arrive in their 1:1.

He is also very specific and very consistently complimentary with Rachel e.g. from the first moment I was just taken by your aura and your presence, you're very easy to talk to, you strike me as incredibly mature, you own a room when you walk in which I find beautiful/sexy, you are smart, you're obviously beautiful, you seem to be very much yourself etc. etc. etc. there's no other woman we've seen him be so profusely complimenting in such specific ways...and as they say specific vs. general compliments are really heartfelt (reminds me also of Ashley I's comment in one of her interviews /she's one of his closest friends in LA/ that when Nick compliments you you feel like a queen cos he doesn't do it a lot but when he does it he reallyyy means it and it's hard-earned)

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] Interesting points -- here's some food for thought from my perspective on those points...I do totally agree that ITM and edits can totally mess with what we see so we're piecing it together from what there is and what seems to be may not actually be...
1. I do think later on in the season the more intimate dates are for F1's but there are also exceptions like Josh and Andi's baseball date vs. Nick and Andi's secluded beach date.
2. Might be the case that he's impatient but he was very openly reassuring Rachel by giving her many compliments or commending her for coming to him when she was struggling with the process so he can "help her through it" by "being very patient with it" he's putting in effort and vocalizes that to her "I am putting a lot of effort into this relationship because it matters a lot to me"
3. I don't think he was surprised it was that effortless and comfortable between them because he said it during the FIR convo "when we talked a bit more...it was so easy to talk to you, I had so much fun talking to you" he also reiterated that point again in the athletics date "you're very easy to talk to" he knew it was effortless between them from the first M&G

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] agreed on all the points that perspective is everything and edits show different things and to be honest I like the combination of perspectives on this forum because I know there are blindspots that I would have watching this show based on how someone's behavior/reactions etc. come across to ME.

I like to look for things that many people on the forum seem to not be discussing and to bring that up -- from a different perspective, because i do believe that brings a much more nuanced and possibly even a more accurate depiction of the actual events that happened. When I go on these long explanations, this is really my objective - to get a rich conversation going around something we may not be discussing because ultimately I am curious to discover what these relationships really were like and how they work in and beyond this show.

With that said on your point about Rachel's lack of date the first week - that may be a good point but we also have heard from Wells that Nick likes the chase and we've heard him say a couple of times on this show that "absence makes the heart grow fonder" and he's looking to see which girl he misses/thinks about the most during the journey. As his litmus test. He also might want to see how she would handle it and if the connection would fizzle or stay particularly in comparision with other dates he's gone on. even in his own words 'he had very high expectations' going into the date -- will it hold up - esp with him having experienced so many other dates. This is a much better strategy IMHO than doing like Kaitlyn and hitching your wagon on one horse and not having any perspective from which to compare that first connection

We've also heard him at some point mention he'd been thinking of Rachel from the beginning. Nick isn't the most obvious of guys and he thinks unconventionally about things (one of the attributes I really enjoy about him). To use the" keeping Corrine" example/reasoning; he later explained he wanted to use that situation as a litmus test for how the ladies would confront a situation when things aren't going their way. This is a very unconventional approach to this show and he might be prone to using the show in that unconventional way more so than anyone else on this show.

Final point - even with that, I don't see Rachel missing the first date as a huge clue simply because there are a LOT of people on that date and like he said he might have "felt so confident about Rachel" that he saw no reason to see how she'd be in that date. (remember he hates group dates and he might want to isolate her from seeing him with other women) anywayz many possible reasons either way particularly with the limited info that we have

It will be interesting to see tonight because Rachel and Vanessa are on the same date! Let's see how Nick acts around them.

Final point - even with that, I don't see Rachel missing the first date as a huge clue

I didn't say it was a clue to anything. My point was in regard to the whole chasing/not chasing. And in my opinion, I have seen Nick chasing a woman, twice. Yes, the roles are reversed now but he's still himself. And in both cases, he was very determined, some would even say aggressive in that chase.

And I just don't think if Nick was so into a chase with Rachel, that he would have been content to give her a FIR and not see her again at all until the cocktail ceremony. In my opinion of course. And again, just to be clear, I have never had a single doubt or questioning of Nick's being interested in Rachel and there being something special between them.

As I noted above, I thought that was very obvious. I just saw something different between him and Vanessa and I don't think one is necessarily better than the other, for the record. Which is why I stated that it's really whatever appeals to you. At the end of the day, I'm sure Nick made a choice he believed was right for him and as much as I like Rachel, I haven't seen anything to make me question that his choice was the wrong one. And there have been plenty of pairings in the past on this show where I have questioned that.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] fair point -- I do wonder though if he'd handle the show the same way he handled being a contestant...particularly with the fear that this show hasn't worked for him before. He's repeated this same fear a couple of different times as TB so far including to V saying he's terrified that he might have felt so sure but then it was for the best that he didn't end up with either A or K.

I remember him discussing with Jen on BIP that on Bette he jumped really fast and hard to fall for Andi and Kaitlyn and he's learned that he needs to take it much slower and to work on a foundation first (or something along those lines...not sure if anyone recalls the exact language) the dilemma he also was facing with Jen was that not only was he moving too slowly but he seemed to be too scared to jump/ move forward at all.

I think understanding this particular dilemma is important for understanding where Nick's psyche is at particularly on this show. I think he wants to be very careful in his choices and his moves cos he knows that you can get "swept away" and feel like you figured out your future/develop feelings on this show when the choice is ultimately not the right one for you. We heard him recently discuss that this environment is designed to help you develop emotions for someone...

In any case, several things he's done/said as the bach have indicated that he's approaching this a bit more carefully and unconventionally cos he's really kind of scared to be on there a 4th time and to fail again.

What does this mean for Rachel and Vanessa? 1. That a more expressive and aggressive contestant will do better with him at this phase in his romantic journey to make him feel safe and to draw him out 2. Nick just wants love and he's as much the hopeless romantic as he has also become more and more the pragmatic romantic who very much understands the bach world - has analyzed it in and out for years and would want to use it to his best advantage 3. Rachel is at a disadvantage cos she seems pretty risk-prone and reserved

All obviously very much IMHO

lleyki wrote:It's all interpretation and of course those conversations were all edited so it's hard to really say but yes, we can only go by what was shown (case in point, in his People blog the day after his date with Vanessa, Nick said they spoke about their families, hopes for the futures, relationships, etc. We didn't see that).

And we know there was stuff edited out when Vanessa said to him, when confronting him about his behavior with Corinne that he had said to her how he knew being the Bachelor he would be judged for the things he said and did. Again, didn't see that.

But all that aside, regarding the chasing/not chasing, for me what most stands out is that Vanessa was the only woman who had a date every single week. She was on a group date, then her 1 on 1, then on every group date until her second 1 on 1 and then of course HTD and everything else. And as we know, when she was on a losing team on a group date, Nick changed the rules.

In other words, there wasn't one point where Nick didn't see and spend some time with Vanessa as opposed to Rachel's not being on any dates the week right after she received the FIR. Now I can buy holding off on a 1 on 1 but I can't buy the Nick that I saw on two seasons of the Bachelorette, who's pretty unapologetic when pursuing someone, if he was really chasing Rachel so much, would just not bother even seeing her for a whole week until the cocktail party.

IMO, there is no question that Nick liked Rachel. That he respected her, was physically attracted to her and just all around thought she was an amazing woman. That in my opinion, goes without saying. And I absolutely believe he enjoyed his time with her. However, what he seemed to have with Vanessa was an immediate emotional connection - it wasn't physical or just passion which is why I disagree that it was lust or there was no fun or friendship.

The fact is we all see things differently and different relationships appeal to different people. There are many today who think Andi and Nick might have been married by now if she'd picked him. Now I don't necessarily agree with that but I know while watching her season I saw huge glaring red signals with in her relationship with Josh. And of course some loved them and thought they were amazing. So it's all subjective really.

As I've said, I like Rachel and I did enjoy her and Nick's interaction but just like Sharleen, as great as they were were, I did still see the difference between their interactions and Nick's with Vanessa and why he (if we believe spoilers) ultimately chose Vanessa.

Bringing this whole post forward simply because it's a good factual date recap.

ReneeM wrote:I know Chase, and Wells are in the bachnation world but Chase IMO, in the words of Thomas Henderson, couldn't spell cat if you spotted him the C and the A, and Wells' greatest accomplishment is doing drunk snapchat recaps of a show he was on once upon a time IMO. So it might just be me but I'm not checking for either of their opinions on anything, but especially a woman like Rachel.

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I read the article and Wells said he didn't think America would embrace a black bachelorette sadly enough.  It's the "sadly enough" that I am focusing on.  Wells has shown himself to be a kind spirit and I have seen nothing which suggests he harbors any bigotry.  I think he was reflecting on how some folks in America feel, not saying he feels that way. I would say his greatest accomplishment so far, in addition to being a good uncle, is that he has two successful iHeart radio shows in an important music market.   As to his snap chats, he's in his own home, not driving, etc.  He's a young guy and does tend to enjoy the party.  I will still favor him over most of the crowd of wannabees. For the record, I would welcome Rachel as the bachelorette. I think she would be great...if she wants it. TPTB don't deserve her nor many of the terrific people they have put through the wringer.

Their exchange was very interesting in the latest episodes...what I saw was that they both handled the difficult conversation very well and I can imagine communication is one of their strongest elements of their relationship. Both were honest and open, both were extremely receptive of the other's feelings and thoughts. I'm not sure what else was there (I'm pretty sure the conversation must have been much longer than what was shown) but neither of them sugar coated the issue and both addressed it head on. Rachel did not hold back from confronting him on what happen and what she saw. Kudos to them both!

some observations

1. The concern on his face and that he vocalized was very real - based on his facial expressions and body language, Nick really means it when tells Rachel 'I'm super into you'. He vocalized "I would lose my mind if you wigged out and said 'peace' and left", when she said she was 'there' indicating she saw whatever went down in the group date he said "that's why I'm having a bit of anxiety right now" and when she then said I'll definitely tell you even if I'm on my way out he seemed to get panicked again "no, no don't..."

2. based on their conversation, I think something big went down to make Rachel question Nick's feelings for her also he so resolutely called on her as the first person to talk to during the CP and her ITM's -- he must have known something was up. she was saying she wants to feel like her feelings are matched and if not she'd leave...also that she didn't feel like she was one of Nick's top women during that date. Something they edited out went down during the date that was significant to Rachel and Nick's journey likely having to do with the other women and they left it out.

My hypothesis is that Rachel saw Nick consoling and spending a lot of time with one of the losing ladies -- maybe Vanessa who maybe was crying etc. cos Rachel said "I was there!" and "I honestly wasn't trying to be here tonight" whatever she saw really made her question that she was up there on his list with whoever Nick was giving attention to during the date

The question is why the heck did they leave it out??

3. Rachel was narrating this episode and she does a really good job of narrating by sharing what she thinks Nick is thinking about. Her narration showed me that she really "gets" Nick based on how she was talking about him. I remember seeing her recent bio posted around here that said she excels at understanding her clients -- I really think she understands Nick on a non-superficial level and that would make her a true prize for anyone to get the privilege to have a relationship with her because she would operate from having a real understanding of the other person.

Based on what we see -- I can see very much that while this episode was extremely dramatic and full of conflict - also based on who I believe Nick is and who we're starting to learn Rachel is -- I think next week if they have some real private time they would be going into it having learned much more about each other.

For the above reason alone i.e. the journey of getting to know each other I'm shocked and truly can't believe they're not giving us the F1 narrative with Vanessa!!! What the heck happened this episode between V&N and why aren't we seeing it??

Lastly, I'm very curious how Rachel would handle the next week with this new realization about how hard things are on Nick and her narrator role this epi - a calm voice in the middle of drama -- definitely positions her as bette and I'm sooo excited if that's going to happen!!

This may be unpopular but I actually was not wowed by what I saw between Nick and Rachel last night. This is what I wrote in the episode thread:

On the flipside, when things with Rachel were tense, there was this massive wall of space between them and something significant stood out to me. As much as Nick was telling Rachel to share her feelings and all that, I didn't feel like he was as reassuring to her as he could have been considering her fear is she's not as important to him. And I found it very interesting when he said to her, "I don't want you to be here if you don't want to be." IMO that is not a guy who really wants this woman to stay. I actually thought about Ben's season when Lauren made some comment about being okay if she left and you could visibly see the panic on Ben's face.

And I stand by that. I know the promo/editing made it seem like Nick was saying he was having super anxiety at the possibility of Rachel leaving but I listened carefully while watching the scene when they were talking and most of Nick's talk about anxiety was his letting Rachel know that he understood her feelings regarding group dates. That he himself had awful anxiety, couldn't sleep at this late stage of the season when he was on other side.

And I don't remember hearing the "I would lose my mind if you wigged out and left" (but I could have missed it and I haven't seen the clip again) but that said, it was difficult to hear everything they said because of another reason I didn't enjoy their conversation. There was a lot of talking over each other and sort of repeating the same thing.

But more importantly, I felt like all Nick had to really say was, "I really want you here and I care about you and I understand your frustration but just try to be patient" and while he did tell Rachel to let him know how she's feeling and that he understood, he also said to her that he didn't want her to stay if she didn't want to be there. To me that comment was not necessary.

I mean yeah it's true. If she's not feeling it with him, why pretend and drag it out but I just feel in a conversation where the woman is looking for validation and reassurance of his feelings and her importance to him, saying that didn't help and wasn't necessary. I also noticed the space between them and their physical body language during the conversation. I do think it's another fail on the editors part that we didn't get to see what truly made Rachel feel the way she did by the end of the date.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] ITA. Astrid's interview of Rachel not being that familiar with the show really clarified a lot to me in the way Rachel behaves, and it speaks to her personality that for the most part she hasn't been really manipulated by the producers yet. Watching Rachel talk last night, I kept saying, she's being TOO real for this show, she didn't come off as whiny IMO, but just straight forward in how she was feeling. Maybe if more people did that on these shows, the success rate would be better. Too often IMO when a 'contestant' feels  negatively about the process, or something the lead does, they either never bring it up to the lead, or they pussyfoot around the issue when they do, and it's never actually resolved. So in that way, I enjoyed their conversation, and I found the honesty refreshing.

Rachel has a talent of being able to really see who people are, and understand them, and I think she really understands Nick. I think that's why she gets along with the other girls so well, and seems to be the overall favourite girl among the girls.When you're in a house with a bunch of other beautiful women, all competing for the same guy, I'm sure it takes a toll, and everyone at one point or another feels overlooked. So having someone like Rachel who will actually listen (notice during jasmine's incessant talking, some girls seemed over it, I definitely was over it, but Rachel was actually listening to her. Reminds me of the situation with Dominique), was probably really nice for them.

All JMO.

I read that article about Wells comment and I totally disagree. Some of the top shows on ABC feature strong Black women. Just because a person wins the White House, doesn't mean everything is based on who is President.