Re: Rachel Lindsay - Bachelor 21 - *Sleuthing Spoilers*

by coolangel Mon Feb 06, 2017 1:34 pm

crunchycheeto wrote:[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] I agree. I think he's been most vulnerable and open with both Rachel and Vanessa. And I actually see that amazement/infatuation with both women -- I get the impression from Nick's facial expressions that he's kind of taken aback by how great these two women are. And I think he's also surprised by how into them he is, especially given this short timeframe.

The only difference I see in terms of Nick's vulnerability is that with Rachel, it seems like there's a lot of excitement and hope for this new relationship. Like, he's eager to discover more things about her and her life. With Vanessa, there's this sense of comfort and desire to be protective. Personally, I'm a fan of seeing these two "love stories" play out because they both seem genuine yet different in their own ways. Plus they bring out the sides of Nick that made me appreciate him in the first place -- the genuine curiosity, the little bits of dorkiness when he's smitten, and the way he gets really invested in someone when he's falling for them.

Well said [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]! ITA! :yes:

I feel he has been vulnerable with both women. Vanessa also mentioned him talking about being judged as a lead during the Corinne conversation. Even though we never saw that during their date, that IMO must have been a very vulnerable moment for Nick after the kind of hate he has received being a contestant.

Personally, I wouldn't use the term 'infatuation' while describing his connection with both Vanessa and Rachel. Infatuation for me is what he has with Danielle L IMO. IMO Nick's connection with both Vanessa and Rachel has the potential of going the distance - There is trust, understanding, friendship, chemistry and mutual respect along with the potential of love. The only difference IMO is that with Vanessa, something just clicked on that first date and that relationship raced ahead to a different plane which makes all other relationships look average in comparison IMO even though they would have been amazing in their own right.

All JMO. Smiley

by Naijabach Mon Feb 06, 2017 1:37 pm

I agree with all the points stated about the difference between Nick with Vanessa and Nick with Rachel. I went back and watched and realized the same point that [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] had made in that Rachel bottles up her emotion while Vanessa is more open. Through out Vanessa's date she would state things like "you're so cute", and I like being in your arms. As its been said before, Nick mirrors the women he's with and he was therefore allowed to be in a more intimate space with vanessa. Also keep in mind that Vanessa wanted nick to be the bachelor so there's been a foundation of interest and desire to know him.

On the other hand, as Astrid mentioned in that podcast, Rachel didn't know much about the bachelor process and I don't think she knew much about nick IMO. Thinking back to night one, she was surprised with how big his immediate family was. And as she has claimed to not being vulnerable and believing in love at first sight, she was probably hesitant that anything would come out of this experience. So their first date was truly how you would feel getting to know someone on the first date. While with Vanessa you could say there was already anticipation on her part and they had skipped the first step of getting to know someone.

So when we get to their date, especially the dinner portion with Nick and Rachel talking about how fun the date was, it reflected, IMO surprise that they actually connected. Also if we notice, Nick said I'm super into you after Rachel stated that she didn't know she would feel how she felt so quickly. so maybe by opening up, that allowed Nick to vocalize how he felt about her and you could tell by their next kiss how much closer they had been compared to earlier on in the day. Even in her PI during the date she was like "I really like him, its true" almost as if she couldn't believe.

All this was just to say that Rachel and Vanessa are two different women in how they express their interest in Nick, and likewise their relationships will be different.

by Catdwoman50 Mon Feb 06, 2017 1:54 pm

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] I think you pegged my thoughts re: Nick relationship with Vanessa and Rachel.

Vanessa = effortless ("slotting into each other"), Rachel = refreshing (novelty almost)

by sdmom Mon Feb 06, 2017 2:33 pm

Rachel and Vanessa are great women and Nick was so lucky to have both of them on this show!
We already saw Vanessa called him out, and I wonder if Rachel would do the same to him?
One thing I am hesitant to point out: Rachel seems coming from a family where faith is important. Didn't she attend a faith-based high school? She attends church and took him (according to RS, if he's right) there on HTD. I don't get the feeling Nick practices his belief, so I don' know how her family will view him?
This is not to be a discussion on religion and I am not saying who's too good for whom based on faith, but I do wonder how important this is to her? to him?
All JMO.

by crunchycheeto Mon Feb 06, 2017 4:12 pm

Sharleen's episode 5 recap is up [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] and she had some nice things to say about Rachel.

One of the joys of having a Chinese mother is that she has an incredibly astute Chinese proverb for just about every situation. (I swear I'm coming to a point here.) Over the holidays my mom introduced a new one to us and we were all struck by a) the fact that we’d never before heard this particular one, and b) how damn TRUE it is.

The proverb goes: A full bottle makes no sound, a half bottle sloshes around.

Rachel is a full bottle. Despite having one of the most impressive careers out of any of the women, she brings it up only when specifically asked about it, and even then, she ties it to the relevancy of this situation (eg. mentioning how, because she cannot be vulnerable in her day-to-day work life, she struggles with allowing herself to be vulnerable in her personal life). Rachel doesn’t need to be a braggart because her badassery inevitably and effortlessly reveals itself.

by emusha Mon Feb 06, 2017 4:52 pm

Naijabach wrote:I agree with all the points stated about the difference between Nick with Vanessa and Nick with Rachel. I went back and watched and realized the same point that [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] had made in that Rachel bottles up her emotion while Vanessa is more open. Through out Vanessa's date she would state things like "you're so cute", and I like being in your arms. As its been said before, Nick mirrors the women he's with and he was therefore allowed to be in a more intimate space with vanessa. Also keep in mind that Vanessa wanted nick to be the bachelor so there's been a foundation of interest and desire to know him.

On the other hand, as Astrid mentioned in that podcast, Rachel didn't know much about the bachelor process and I don't think she knew much about nick IMO. Thinking back to night one, she was surprised with how big his immediate family was. And as she has claimed to not being vulnerable and believing in love at first sight, she was probably hesitant that anything would come out of this experience. So their first date was truly how you would feel getting to know someone on the first date. While with Vanessa you could say there was already anticipation on her part and they had skipped the first step of getting to know someone.

So when we get to their date, especially the dinner portion with Nick and Rachel talking about how fun the date was, it reflected, IMO surprise that they actually connected. Also if we notice, Nick said I'm super into you after Rachel stated that she didn't know she would feel how she felt so quickly. so maybe by opening up, that allowed Nick to vocalize how he felt about her and you could tell by their next kiss how much closer they had been compared to earlier on in the day. Even in her PI during the date she was like "I really like him, its true" almost as if she couldn't believe.

All this was just to say that Rachel and Vanessa are two different women in how they express their interest in Nick, and likewise their relationships will be different.

Yes... Agreed with the bolded! Thanks for stating this so articulately.
I would suggest to anyone interested to rewatch the beginning of the dinner portions of both these dates. It's shocking but almost the same exact exchange happens between V&N and R&N except in the reverse!! In the V&N date - Vanessa is very obviously leading the conversation and very openly expressing her interest. I can't remember what exactly the words are but Vanessa told Nick "I want to say thank you for being you...for staying by my side and how sick I got." Then nick says that she's stated that she doesn't know too much about him...and she agrees...and then she went on to explain the various attributes that she finds appealing about him from the previous shows, how he is with his mom etc. then she discusses how her family was encouraging her to go on the show --she was being vulnerable. then she goes on to lead the conversation about previous relationships Nick has been in... she was steering the conversation for the most part and expressing her interest/pursuing nick. for the most part nick gets a lot of airtime to tell her about him while being prompted by her.

With Rachel on the other hand, it's Nick who's expressing his interest -- in their time before this 1:1 he'd list out the attributes he likes about her frequently, then during the beginning of the dinner he opens a toast saying that he had very high expectations of the day ... "you surpassed all of my expectations and thanks for being you" then he goes on to ask her about her family saying he doesn't know much about her family...she agrees. she starts talking about her dad then Nick goes on to ask what he can call him - if he's intimidating - what her dad would say if he meets him... he then reveals that he's starting to think about that (she smiles cheekily cos he's suggesting he will take her to HTD) but then he quickly pivots generalizing to all the HTD -- states he's feeling very insecure about meeting families. she then shares she's feeling more than she thought she would by this time...and he says he's "super into her" and that when he's with her he doesn't think about anything else.

With Rachel - Nick is very attentive and in listening mode, for the most part the conversation steers around him learning about her -- pay close attention to his face - her sharing then him interlacing his thoughts/ feelings and experience (this is exactly what Vanessa did with him on their date -- Vanessa was learning about him then she was interlacing her thougths/feelings and experiences in the conversation)

With these two interactions side by side it's very clear that Vanessa was the one expressing interest and "pursuing" Nick in their date while Nick was the one doing the same with Rachel. Telling her how he feels and getting her to open up.

At this point - Nick of all the women is chasing Rachel IMO. As per his ET interview, she was his main front runner from the very beginning (notice HOW he mentioned Vanessa -- after he mentioned Danielle and with a "and also...Vanessa"...) and Vanessa is starting to catch up. I don't think, however, that Rachel is opening up fast enough and I really don't think she's aggressive enough - especially with their date coming so late in the game. Vanessa's expressiveness and IMHO pursuit of Nick gives her an edge particularly because of who Nick is and the type of girl he professes to like. Rachel and Nick are very much on a pragmatic though passionate "getting to know you" rhythm with a friendship foundation while Vanessa and Nick are in an immediate "coupledom" and "hopeless romantic" journey...I'm not convinced they are getting to know each other as separate individuals very well ...though very curious to see if there is indeed evidence for that.

I can see the physical chemistry with both but I'm still not sure who's more compatible with him in the long-run and that's why watching this will be interesting to watch in the long term even beyond the end of this season Watching the difference in the women, and their approach/personalities -- even if I didn't know the spoilers I'd bet Vanessa would win this show simply due to her expressive/passionate and very proactive/aggressive approach.

by Catdwoman50 Mon Feb 06, 2017 5:07 pm

^^[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] I will disagree re: front runner - I sincerely believe that based on the order of dates, Nick requested for Vanessa's date to be sooner than later, to me that is Nick chasing. Him being very attentive to Vanessa during the 0-G date was him chasing Vanessa. I think the difference is that by the time dinner time came around Vanessa also showed her enthusiasm about whatever Nick had started and began reciprocating. V&N are more reciprocal I believe. Whereas R&N is more of Nick trying to draw Rachel out of her shell. My .02 cents.

by Maddy Mon Feb 06, 2017 5:09 pm

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]
Heading into their own mini-concert, I laughed when Nick prompted Rachel regarding the next activity and she was a bit too honest...
[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]
I love how simply and decisively she says, "Yes." Like, you KNOW she's not exaggerating.
One of the joys of having a Chinese mother is that she has an incredibly astute Chinese proverb for just about every situation. (I swear I'm coming to a point here.) Over the holidays my mom introduced a new one to us and we were all struck by a) the fact that we’d never before heard this particular one, and b) how damn TRUE it is.
The proverb goes: A full bottle makes no sound, a half bottle sloshes around.
Rachel is a full bottle. Despite having one of the most impressive careers out of any of the women, she brings it up only when specifically asked about it, and even then, she ties it to the relevancy of this situation (eg. mentioning how, because she cannot be vulnerable in her day-to-day work life, she struggles with allowing herself to be vulnerable in her personal life). Rachel doesn’t need to be a braggart because her badassery inevitably and effortlessly reveals itself.
Not to prematurely bring up Corinne, and I don’t know the ins and outs of her/her family’s “multi-million dollar business”, but based on how adamantly and often she brings it up (the “sloshing around”), she’s this metaphor's half-full bottle. If she didn’t have something to prove—or didn’t behave in ways which seem to routinely lead to her defending the legitimacy of her claims—she’d likely make a hell of a lot less noise.
Anyway, back to Rachel, she nails the fine balance between being clearly uncomfortable in this situation while somehow NOT being awkward. This is much harder said than done as folks are usually either not awkward at all but a bit too (and in my opinion, unrelatably) comfortable, OR they're endearingly uncomfortable yet a bit painful to watch. Rachel is SO poised. If you can’t tell, I’m a fan.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

by emusha Mon Feb 06, 2017 5:31 pm

Catdwoman50 wrote:^^[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] I will disagree re: front runner - I sincerely believe that based on the order of dates, Nick requested for Vanessa's date to be sooner than later, to me that is Nick chasing. Him being very attentive to Vanessa during the 0-G date was him chasing Vanessa. I think the difference is that by the time dinner time came around Vanessa also showed her enthusiasm about whatever Nick had started and began reciprocating. V&N are more reciprocal I believe. Whereas R&N is more of Nick trying to draw Rachel out of her shell. My .02 cents.

well I don't feel so strongly about the word "frontrunner" cos what does that even mean?? laugh out loud

and this is all based on what we see so I'm not trying to argue that specific point but I do think that Vanessa has been pursuing Nick much more openly over the last few episodes while on the other hand, Nick has been pursuing Rachel openly... my caveat is ultimately its all a moot point and will matter is how they would have built a relationship. In one of his recent interviews Nick was saying "It's good you guys can pick it out when it's all a haze for me" regarding people saying they could tell V was F1 from night one...

their very first interaction Vanessa told Nick that she hoped he was the bachelor and she felt like it was 'meant to be' when he ended up being the bach. She was very complimentary of him at the beginning of their dinner date 'thank you for being you...it was special that you took care of me' etc. we haven't heard Nick discuss her attributes specifically so far but he does discuss their interactions and the gift from her students, how protective he feels about her "i like taking care of you", he discusses how optimistic he feels - how much fun he had and how he cares for her etc.

With Rachel from the first day when he gave her the first rose, he was all compliments, he reaffirms those compliments the next time they talk. Then he states he'll be very patient with helping her "get there" and he's very glad she's opening up to him because that's the best step. When she says she's trying... he tells her he "wants someone who wants to". He again is full of compliments during their date and he flat out states that he's "super into her". he also initiates a lot of physical touch with her.

Regarding the examples you listed
1. We know that date orders are generally a negotiation between the lead and production - in bette seasons the F1 and F2 generally get dates later on in the show..
2. I totally think Nick taking care of Vanessa bonded them to have intimacy more than with any other woman but I don't see how that is him "pursuing her". I don't see him fascinated to learn every little thing about her in their conversation as he is with Rachel and he doesn't point out specific attributes of hers during the convos - this might be the edit but if so the edit isnt showing him pursuing V in the way he's pursuing Rachel -- so far! ALL IMHO

My disclaimer - I honestly don't think it matters in the end of this show whehter he was initially interested in Rachel or Vanessa -- over the weeks the relationships change and they get to know each other for real... no idea

I will even go far enough to say that in this show it doesn't even ultimately matter who the lead chose as F1 cos the true test will be wether they have compatibility beyond the romance of this show (note: the speculation in the ben and lauren page to see what I mean)

by **GuardianAngel** Mon Feb 06, 2017 5:47 pm

I wouldn't say Nick was chasing Rachel. IMO while watching, I felt he was trying to start a conversation because she really wasn't talking. At the same time, he was making her feel comfortable. For me, that wasn't a chase at all. IMO It was Nick that was trying to get more out of her.

by Catdwoman50 Mon Feb 06, 2017 5:52 pm

just to continue our discussion (ITA on your disclaimer btw).

I actually did an analysis on date patterns and type of dates and noted that the lead will ask for more intimate dates for those that they really are interested in getting to know more (e.g. less people in date) while will be okay with "day time" activity dates for the ones that they have some sort of connection -IMO. This is usually something we try to sleuth at FDs so we know which ones the lead has real interest in.

I also added Nick's pattern from last seasons, how he hasn't been a very patient man when chasing "the" girl - made me conclude that he would have wanted his "front runner" dates early. It doesn't matter now, as you say, but I believe that his degree of interest night 1 would be evident on order of dates: (Vanessa, DanielleM, and Danielle L) epi 2-4 (even Raven) - some will endure and some will fizzle as we see every season. That doesn't mean that these ladies become F1, some seemingly "friend-zoned" contestants can still become the F1 as you said. But I'm still harping on front runner, I think Nick was surprised (IMO) how Rachel's date was so comfortable and effortless (note date, not connection and IMO) to him. I think that Rachel has always been pegged as "Bachelorette" and the connection was a surprise to both of them.

Anyway, I agree some leads like Sean Lowe literally said about Cat that she wasn't even in his radar in the beginning so again social experiment - anything can happen. I am looking at historical patterns and behaviors as opposed to motivation based on convo. Lots of the convos had been added and removed so "in the moments" are not usually as they appear.

by Dessler Mon Feb 06, 2017 6:06 pm

GuardianAngel wrote:I wouldn't say Nick was chasing Rachel. IMO while watching, I felt he was trying to start a conversation because she really wasn't talking. At the same time, he was making her feel comfortable. For me, that wasn't a chase at all. IMO It was Nick that was trying to get more out of her.

I don't know about who was chasing who, only Nick and the women can know for sure imo. Rachel actually got the conversation going after Nick complemented her by talking about the last time she was in new orleans. Some people on twitter/podcasts even called Nick a bad conversationalist because all he could say was "that's crazy" after Rachel talked about something profound.

by Sponsored content

Rachel Lindsay - Bachelor 21 - Sleuthing Spoilers

Re: Rachel Lindsay - Bachelor 21 - Sleuthing Spoilers

Re: Rachel Lindsay - Bachelor 21 - Sleuthing Spoilers

Re: Rachel Lindsay - Bachelor 21 - Sleuthing Spoilers

Re: Rachel Lindsay - Bachelor 21 - Sleuthing Spoilers

Re: Rachel Lindsay - Bachelor 21 - Sleuthing Spoilers

Re: Rachel Lindsay - Bachelor 21 - Sleuthing Spoilers

Re: Rachel Lindsay - Bachelor 21 - Sleuthing Spoilers

Re: Rachel Lindsay - Bachelor 21 - Sleuthing Spoilers

Re: Rachel Lindsay - Bachelor 21 - Sleuthing Spoilers

Re: Rachel Lindsay - Bachelor 21 - Sleuthing Spoilers

Re: Rachel Lindsay - Bachelor 21 - Sleuthing Spoilers

Re: Rachel Lindsay - Bachelor 21 - Sleuthing Spoilers

Re: Rachel Lindsay - Bachelor 21 - Sleuthing Spoilers