THE BACHELORETTE - SEASON 12 - JOJO FLETCHER - **NO SPOILERS** - Episode Discussion - *SLEUTHING* DISCUSSION #2

Litta123 wrote:Studying the FRC caps that we have, I don't think any of them are Chase, which would put him at F3. That leaves Robby and Jordan...again, based on caps. I'd like to see JoJo's time with Robby before ruling him out out or in.

That said, based on what we've seen to date, Jordan seems like a shoe in. I probably shouldn't feel sad or bad about that because it likely is TPTB's editing, but right now it makes me feel meh. I hope I like him at the end of all this...because I'd like JoJo to get her HEA. I'm not sure at this point it will happen.

Looking at the edit, it gives me the feeling that she doesnt walk away alone, but they dont see it lasting. He had to have done something to be edited that way as F1. I wish for the best for her but I dont think her picker is fixed yet.

I also think she will not walk away alone. I think she really wants to find a man with whom she can make a life with. The previews look daunting, but I think she has given too much time, effort, and tears (and tears and more tears) to this process to not at least give one relationship a chance IRL.

I find Jojo to be a very caring person with a high degree of emotional intelligence. She understands people and how to approach them. Several examples come to mind.

Night one, the drunk guys - Daniel into pool and Nick S and Vinny barging into her taping. She was put into an awkward position but she handled it well, telling Daniel to put his clothes back on and not engaging with him, and by placating the drunk guys just enough to gt them to move along. Nobody wants to be put into awkward positions like that, but she handled them with poise and grace.

Chad Bear - when he insulted Evan- she told him straight out that she didn't like it and that he was being disrespectful. When Chad tried to grandstand during the GD and kiss her on stage, she didn't just go along with it. She stood her ground.

I look at her and see a girl with a very big and very soft heart. She cares about people. She doesn't want to hurt the guys any more than they need to be hurt when she eliminates them. I can think of at least one recent lead who, IMO, kind of enjoyed the power trip she got from being in the driver's seat. I don't think Jojo sees herself as the one with the power around whom the entire experience evolves. I have seen her go out of her way to give certain contestants more time, encouraging words, and even roses.

I think Jojo is very aware of how life changing Ben's season was for her. She wasn't Ben's F1, but she evolved as a person to be at a better place because of the lessons she learned. I see her trying to help some of her men learn some lessons for themselves. JT, Wells, Derek, and others.

Even though I see Jojo as an emotional person, I also see her as an intelligent young woman. I do not think that being kind and being wise are mutually exclusive. I think Jojo has put a great deal of thought into the realization that she deserves a man who is going to love and cherish her. She wants a "marriage material guy".

I think in the end she will pick the man who she sees as most likely to make a commitment to her and keep that commitment to her.

^ Nice post Mia. I really do hope for the best for her - she deserves it. But if she chooses Jordan, well, I won't give them more than a year starting from the FRC. JoJo was able to stand up to Chad, tell him what she didn't like and eventually send him home. Can she do the same with Jordan? Will she at the FRC have absolutely zero doubt about him? For a season that spent so much time on her struggling with her doubt etc. it'll almost be a miracle if the doubt is suddenly erased at the end. I think she's gonna go with who makes her feel the most lovy dovy and not necessarily who is the best for her - who is in it for HER, and who will be committed to her only.

The only time Jordan says lovey-dovey things to JoJo is when he's trying to convince her he's not a bad guy. While on the steps in episode 6 he tells her, "I see the person that I want to fall in love with" then he quickly said "that I am falling in love with". To me, that's two different things. But the reason why I think JoJo keeps him around as well is because at some level, I believe she thinks she can change him or mold him into someone "better".  She's a nurturer and so she doesn't mind going along the journey for Jordan's self-betterment.

Ultimately though, if she chooses him, I don't think it'll last. Her initial gut feeling was something was "off" with Jordan, something made her nervous about him - beyond the butterflies. Since that first or second episode where she expressed these reservations, we have seen her turn a blind-eye to those things. I just don't see him as attentive to JoJo as some of the other guys. What gestures indicate his intentions or his feelings toward her apart from his words? Nothing as far as my eye can see. But heck, JoJo is a words of affirmation girl so what do I know?

I agree with your assessment of Jordan. He tries to say all the right things at the right time. (That's usually right after Jojo questions him about some flaw of his) Do you remember the Charlie Brown cartoon specials and how the teacher's voice sounded like "mech, mech,mech, mech". Well, that's just about what I hear when Jordan speaks. What does he ever say? Just a bunch of round about excuses for his mistakes and other general BS about how he's trying to do better or how he wants to fall in love with someone like her. It is all just a bunch of nothing. I, too,believe that if she chooses Jordan that it won't last.

Your point about Jojo being a nurturer is very interesting. I see her the same way. A lot of her treatment of the men has demonstrated that she wants to help them, and I agree that she does go along on their journies for their benefit. I do, however, have faith (not 100% certainty though) that when it comes down to the end, especially when she meets up with her parents that she will focus on what is best for her.

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I dont see it as Jordan trying to say the right things at theright time ... i see it as Jordan always having to defend himself because jealous guys are running to Jojo to complain about stupid petty things and he has to reassure her that hes developing feelings for her. Once i find out spoilers, I may change my opinion of him, but i find myself being defensive of him as he seems to be getting unjustified attacks from the guys because of who his brother is.

I must have missed the Robby caps at the FRC, where are those?

I just had a thought when thinking about the guys and even Jojo questioning Jordan. Jojo knew ahead of time that Jordan was going to be on the show and she had already met his ex.... Yet she still fell for him the first night AND she still gave him the FIR. So the conclusion i draw from that is that she went into this with a high opinion of him and probably why shes defending him when the guys come to her trying to toss him in under the bus.

Lost17 wrote:I must have missed the Robby caps at the FRC, where are those?

It's more deduction than actual caps. We know Chase and Robby are in the F3. I'm pretty confident the thumb cap puts Jordan also in Thailand...so he rounds out the F3, imo. Unless we have something like an Ed, with a returning bachelor, I feel those three guys make up our F3.

This is my opinion. From looking at shoulders, height and hands, I don't think any of our FRC guys are Chase. Thus if he is eliminated at F3, it would leave Robby and Jordan. None of these are the smoking gun type proof...so my conjecture could be wrong. But, that's how I'm seeing it at the moment.

To clarify, I'm going with the conjecture that the FRC caps are showing two different guys. I know this was discussed heavily the other day. I don't recall the thread. I've accepted this as our working assumption, atm. I haven't really studied the argument closely, tbh. So if those really do represent two different guys, then I don't see any hope for Chase.

If the caps are all different views of the same guy including the ring guy and same rejection, then it's back to an opening for Chase. Lost, at this point, I don't see how Luke gets there...unless JoJo takes four guys to FDs.

Thanks Litta, I remembered after I went back into the SC thread..I'm going to check that out a little more I think. Believe me, I know the odds aren't in my favor, but keeping the hope alive.

I'm someone with absolutely does not follow NFL at all. Like zip, zilch, zero. I have no idea who Jordan's brother even is. Maybe that makes me a dumb-dumb, but my point is that I personally am not judging Jordan at all based on who his brother is. I am judging him solely on:

1) his general demeanor when he is around Jojo - I see him as attempting to charm her (verb) as opposed to just being himself. There is a difference to me between somebody who charms others and someone who is naturally charismatic. I don't see Jordan as naturally charismatic. That's just my opinion. Maybe Jojo does.

2) he seems to be a guy who rubbed a few guys the wrong way. Maybe it's just the editing, but we have had comments aired from JT, Wells, Derek, Chase, Evan, and Chad which directly question Jordan in some way. Other than Chad, no other man these season has had so many doubts cast upon him. Is it pure editing? IDK. Do they have footage of just as many negative comments about a different guy and they are just not airing it? Maybe. Even though I do consider some of the comments to be about small or petty issues, I adhere to the 'where there's smoke there's fire' way of thinking. Something about him must come off as cocky or show-boaty with the guys. I don't care if Jordan was correct about he rules of the poker game. It's like Derek told Chad: perception is reality. If the guys think Jordan is arrogant than he is arrogant to them. And it's the guys' comments that are being aired on the show, so that is all I have to go by. Therefore, I believe he has some sort of flaw in the ability to appear sincere and humble. Could be the guys' own insecurities, so, yes, I take it with a grain of salt, as well

3) I observe him as hot and cold with Jojo. Sometimes he seems very smitten with her, other times not so much. Some times I think she likes him more than he likes her. Which is fine. That's why when he says things like "I want to fall in love with you" (as opposed to 'I love you") I'm ok with that. I just hope that Jojo is really listening to what he is actually saying to her and not hearing only what she wants to hear from him.

4) I judge future actions by past actions. If he wasn't an interested or devoted boyfriend in the past, maybe it's just because it was the wrong girl. I have a difficult time reconciling that he could have actually discussed marriage with a girlfriend with whom he blew off the relationship/didn't make it a priority and then went out and flirted with other women in a bar or whatever. A man who knows he is in love with a woman and wants to marry her, wouldn't and shouldn't have the mindset that flirting with other girls is okay. He says he didn't cheat physically. But he did display behavior that says even though he claimed to love a woman, and even though he claims that he discussed/considered marriage with a woman, that simultaneously he didn't treat her and the relationship very well and even went so far as to seek out attention from other women to suit some need within himself. That doesn't illustrate a man who knows what true love is, knows that relationships are a compromise and sacrifices need to be made, or that it isn't right to treat a girlfriend badly just because you can. JMOAA.

I cannot speak for the guys on the show. Obviously they all know who Jordan's brother is. Did that enter into their minds and color their opinions of Jordan? Maybe it did. IDK. I do thnk that solely by virtue of the fa ct that he received the FIR, he had a target on his back - like happens every season. And as it gets down to smaller and smaller numbers the jealousy factor comes into play with the MOT or those other than the front runner.

MIa, you might not know football, but The guys in the house definitely do!  His brother is a big time quarterback and in the US, thats equlivalent to being a famous movie star.  They wouldnt be questioning him or his motives otherwise.  Theres a jealouy there, plain ans simple.   And is Jojo being pulled by the celebrity status?   You can bet your sweet bibby she is her and her family love the spotlight so Im sure the name Rogers is a big drawing card for them.   Does it mean it cant work out? Absolutely not.... But i think its a huge reason why shes more than likely going to choose him.