The Bachelorette - Season 12 - JoJo Fletcher - General Discussion - *Sleuthing - Spoilers* - #3

Later in the week, when I am less occupied with Life, I will re-watch much of last night's episode.

One pattern that stood out to me was the frequency Jo-Jo says "it scares me". At first I thought she was one genuinely frightened little girl, but let's be realistic here. She got rid of the previous Bad Boy in her life and my "vibe" is that he was more verbally abusive of her than physically abusive, later creating havoc with IN TOUCH. I don't think she is scared of that many people, boogey monsters, airplanes or comets crashing on her.

I think she just says "it scares me" to any guy she sees dumping later on. She needs an *excuse* so that HE thinks it is more HIS fault than HERS that it doesn't work out.

Jordan is getting a lot of this kind of talk. I know this forum really takes sleuthing and spoilers with deadly seriousness, but the only scenario I am seeing of Jordan as F1 at this stage is that he temporarily becomes so by default (i.e. something goes wrong with everybody else) and they break up by After the Final Rose. The editors are showing way too much suspicion and disharmony in their relationship regardless of last week's line of hers that this is "the PERFECT love story". She was rather affectionate with him during cocktail hour towards the end, since he opened up more emotionally than usual, so the promos suggesting he might not get the rose and get eliminated were silly. She called his name after Robby's with no hesitation. Yet I get the sense she may be taking him for a ride here.

When he was angry at James, he was obviously NOT thinking of HER. It was all about ego. Loved how he reacted the word "entitlement" and proceeded to say that he would not sabotage any other guy's attempts at "winning" Jo-Jo. I disagree with many of Chad's earlier attacks on Jordan for being here just for the fame, but I do agree that both he and Robby are getting caught up in the competition. Perhaps they can't help it on account of being in very competitive athletic careers and a little of this psychology spilled over in their love lives. They may genuinely have feelings for Jo-Jo and will potentially be heartbroken like Derek clearly was. Yet they may be operating more in their heads, if you know what I mean. Sort of like Nick in Andi's season, who was chewed out by Brian and Farmer Chris for "strategizing", but genuinely saw himself and Andi on a mountain top getting married.

Derek's sob scene in the limo was very emotional, but one key line of his reminded me of Jordan a lot. "I am not perfect enough." Jordan is trying awfully hard to be P-E-R-F-E-C-T. Even his lectures about "trust" and "integrity as taught by my family" (paraphrasing by my lousy memory here) are all about convincing himself that he is doing everything right. I have to go back to the earlier episode, but I think there was a key clue indicating that he, like Derek, will have an emotional melt-down later in the season. He was predicting that he will take a risk and potentially get heartbroken, but saying so in an overly analytic manner without realizing how emotional it really will be when it happens. Even Derek was saying "I shouldn't be crying" and was trying to fight it and couldn't.

Robby, of course, is going to have most of his troubles next week. Somebody is spilling the beans on his ex-girlfriend or whatever. I wonder if he will react like Jordan did to James accusing him of "entitlement". Ha ha!

Don't get me wrong with my analysis here. I like both Jordan and Robby. I think Jordan, if he is not F1, would make an interesting lead.

Chase is growing on me as a most interesting contestant. He seemed genuinely happy that she kept him over Derek. I am not sure he should be THAT relieved since she clearly has the hots for other guys over him. He is another one whose exit won't be pretty... like Derek before him.

James and Alex... poor guys. She just couldn't handle dumping them right after Derek and Wells. Too emotionally drained this week. Yet they are on Borrowed Time.

Alas... this still looks like a Luke finish to me. Again, I  can see things going wrong on his hometown and that is why he doesn't become F1. Yet I wonder if they would be showing all of her "crazy" talk regarding their physical chemistry if he was just another dumpee. I don't know why the Spoilers are not matching in his favor, but I am at a point with this silly show that Fleiss & Co. is capable of anything these days, fooling all of us snoopers trying To Figure It Out. In any case, Luke is definitely the oldest and most "war weary" of the bunch. Although I thought Robby was touching discussing his lost buddy in last week's episode, I couldn't help but think of how many of Luke's "buddies" perished under worse circumstances.

@JBF, what insights ! Bravo ! Ita about the talk Jordan is getting from Jojo about being scared and things. I think her mantra with him is, with great risk comes great rewards. Alas, it also can bring great heartache and like you said, she's verbally preparing for it too. I can see why all the external sources have said he's a charmer and why girls go after him even if they are warned. He reminds me of a chameleon , able to change his colors to blend in. She's only prepping him for the end imo. Jojo comes to him as an open book and he's just using a page out of his Playas Handbook. She's said she believes in fairytale love and that will play into Jordan's favor as regards to manipulation . I just wish that if we're going to be taken for a ride, at least be a good one . This season is so predictable even before it began and was sleuthed who would be on. Zzzzzzzzz

"with great risk comes great rewards"

You know... I am prepared for him to be F1 even though the editing and storyline isn't suggesting it.

Yet if he loses, I do think Jordan would make an interesting Bachelor. Maybe I am in the minority thinking this on account of so many viewing him as a Bad Boy. Yet he is constantly talking and explaining to HIMSELF as well as to viewers about "trust", "integrity", etc.... etc. I can't remember where I heard him say he was prepared for heartbreak or whatever, but it was the first sign to me that he might not have this in-the-bag, so to speak. I could easily imagine, if he does lose Jo-Jo, Mister Harrison asking him all that he learned in his Hot Seat and prepping him for the possibility of doing it all over again.

JBF wrote:"with great risk comes great rewards"

You know... I am prepared for him to be F1 even though the editing and storyline isn't suggesting it.

Yet if he loses, I do think Jordan would make an interesting Bachelor. Maybe I am in the minority thinking this on account of so many viewing him as a Bad Boy. Yet he is constantly talking and explaining to HIMSELF as well as to viewers about "trust", "integrity", etc.... etc. I can't remember where I heard him say he was prepared for heartbreak or whatever, but it was the first sign to me that he might not have this in-the-bag, so to speak. I could easily imagine, if he does lose Jo-Jo, Mister Harrison asking him all that he learned in his Hot Seat and prepping him for the possibility of doing it all over again.

It's funny to me because I might like him as TB too ! Go figure. If it's all about a good show and not about finding love, I think Jordan would be interesting to watch. UnReal is featuring a QB on their season too. Would that be like RL imitating art ? To me when Jordy talks about integrity, his pastor's rendition of a Beyoncé song etc, I see someone doing this.... .

Now that I think about it, a full season of "Teacher" Jordan lecturing us all on screen in between his dates might be a slight overkill.

James got tired of being lectured on How To Play Poker instead of just enjoying poker, so he decided to complain to Jo-Jo about it. !

ForeverLove wrote:@JBF, what insights ! Bravo ! Ita about the talk Jordan is getting from Jojo about being scared and things. I think her mantra with him is, with great risk comes great rewards. Alas, it also can bring great heartache and like you said, she's verbally preparing for it too. I can see why all the external sources have said he's a charmer and why girls go after him even if they are warned. He reminds me of a chameleon , able to change his colors to blend in. She's only prepping him for the end imo. Jojo comes to him as an open book and he's just using a page out of his Playas Handbook. She's said she believes in fairytale love and that will play into Jordan's favor as regards to manipulation . I just wish that if we're going to be taken for a ride, at least be a good one . This season is so predictable even before it began and was sleuthed who would be on. Zzzzzzzzz

are we 100% convinced that Jordan is F1 and not F2?
As far as I know, I saw few words out of jojo's mouth in front of the blue suit but 80% was voice over.
Sometimes I feel as if it is a marketing product: I learned that a person will be interested in the product if this person hear or see this product a minimum of 7 times. The product is that RS said that Jordan is F1, therefore everything turns around this possibility. Substract this possibility and we see jojo acting the same way the previous ettes did with brooks, frank, nick, bentley and so on.

some voice over yesterday made me confirm that jordan will propose. I am not 100% convinced yet that he is F1, he can be F2. But other voice over made me think that Luke is F1, if not then F4.

I will try if it is not done elsewhere on this forum to write down the voice over as i think some are important in the script. It will be nice to get @JBF opinion.

(all above is my speculation only. TYVM)

JBF wrote:"with great risk comes great rewards"

You know... I am prepared for him to be F1 even though the editing and storyline isn't suggesting it.

Yet if he loses, I do think Jordan would make an interesting Bachelor. Maybe I am in the minority thinking this on account of so many viewing him as a Bad Boy. Yet he is constantly talking and explaining to HIMSELF as well as to viewers about "trust", "integrity", etc.... etc. I can't remember where I heard him say he was prepared for heartbreak or whatever, but it was the first sign to me that he might not have this in-the-bag, so to speak. I could easily imagine, if he does lose Jo-Jo, Mister Harrison asking him all that he learned in his Hot Seat and prepping him for the possibility of doing it all over again.

rumors say that he wanted to be the next bachelor. goes as far as top 4 to secure his position and then changed his mind and went for the F1.

HEA wrote:

ForeverLove wrote:@JBF, what insights ! Bravo ! Ita about the talk Jordan is getting from Jojo about being scared and things. I think her mantra with him is, with great risk comes great rewards. Alas, it also can bring great heartache and like you said, she's verbally preparing for it too. I can see why all the external sources have said he's a charmer and why girls go after him even if they are warned. He reminds me of a chameleon , able to change his colors to blend in. She's only prepping him for the end imo. Jojo comes to him as an open book and he's just using a page out of his Playas Handbook. She's said she believes in fairytale love and that will play into Jordan's favor as regards to manipulation . I just wish that if we're going to be taken for a ride, at least be a good one . This season is so predictable even before it began and was sleuthed who would be on. Zzzzzzzzz

are we 100% convinced that Jordan is F1 and not F2?
As far as I know, I saw few words out of jojo's mouth in front of the blue suit but 80% was voice over.
Sometimes I feel as if it is a marketing product: I learned that a person will be interested in the product if this person hear or see this product a minimum of 7 times. The product is that RS said that Jordan is F1, therefore everything turns around this possibility. Substract this possibility and we see jojo acting the same way the previous ettes did with brooks, frank, nick, bentley and so on.

some voice over yesterday made me confirm that jordan will propose. I am not 100% convinced yet that he is F1, he can be F2. But other voice over made me think that Luke is F1, if not then F4.

I will try if it is not done elsewhere on this forum to write down the voice over as i think some are important in the script. It will be nice to get @JBF opinion.

(all above is my speculation only. TYVM)

You sure got me curious.

I am game for Jordan being F1, but I think everybody knows I beat to my own drum. I am quite the nitwit around here. The seasons that I screw up on are the seasons when the lead just chooses a temporary pick he/she can break up with in a few months anyway. This might be the case here too.

The way I see it is, according to the edit/storyline...

Both Jordan and Robby said in the last episode that you must think of your self as F1. You can't have doubts in your standing.
Both were cute and cocky when getting their pedicures in Uraguay, thinking the group date taking place at that time was less important than their solo dates.
Derek seemed more confident than Chase in their 2 on 1. Oops!
Derek cried though... a lot more than the singer's rendition from EVITA. I can only imagine how others who are more confident than they should be may also cry.
Wasn't there a scene with Derek earlier when he was warned about being too confident? I have to find out who was involved there and what the discussion was.
Humorously James accused Jordan of "entitlement". Jo-Jo told him that is a big turn off for her.
When Jo-Jo discussed James to Jordan, she did say he was somebody she trusts.
Jo-Jo also said earlier that she trusts Jordan telling the truth about his ex-girlfriend. We have yet to see if she trusts him in other things.
Jo-Jo also says she put trust in Robby when their did their high dive. We have yet to see if she trusts him in other things... like girlfriends.
Jordan has given us many lectures on screen about "trust being the most important part in a relationship". He is such a good professor.
Robby made Jo-Jo sob a bit discussing his buddy getting killed before he could marry his sweetheart (or something like that... I forgot the full story). Robby says you shouldn't take life for granted.
Well... ain't that something! Luke said the very same thing in his episode 1 intro after discussing the loss of MULTIPLE buddies in conflict. Me thinks Luke has had more life experience than Robby, but Robby still feels he has the edge in the competition.
Unfortunately Jo-Jo is not discussing her crayzee physical activities with Luke with the other guys. They all take Great Pride in their kissing techniques.

This video amuses me: I think the ending typically is two people coming to the end (typically, but not always as in the case of Jillian's season) and you either say goodbye to one or you say goodbye to two (Jillian saying goodbye to Kippy and Boomerang Reid and choosing Ed, also Brad in his first season saying goodbye to two and choosing nobody)



I know she said in the above interview that it is possible to fall in love with more than one contestant and there is no doubt she did. Yeah, she probably fell for either Jordan or Robby or Chase or any combination.

With that said, it is visually apparent that she started to "fall for" Luke on their first solo date, probably earlier than she did with the other guys. (Whether she "falls out of love" with him is something the pro-Jordan or pro-Robby team can debate.)

The sequence of importance is at the late night table, when he discussed being a football player who was inexperienced but gained experience when entrusted the lives of others in combat. You can see it in their facial expressions. At one point, tears start to well in his eyes and she is transfixed on him. There is also an interesting moment mid-way when she is fondling his hand during his "what gives me chills speech" and you sense... well, I sensed... she completely lost it with him. Fortunately the editors did a great job with their scissors, so the average viewer microwaving their dinner while half-watching the screen won't think this scene is any big deal.

The editors also insert two familiar musical themes in the background. The first was the Ryan/Trista Proposal Guitar Rift heard over her "There is so much about Luke that I like. I think he is rugged and he's sexy and that mysterious thing, there's something sexy about that. So... going into tonight, I want to know why and how Luke is the way he is today and how he has gotten to this point." The second, a popular one at Final Rose Ceremonies, was played when she gave him the rose, "after tonight, our relationship is so much deeper than that".

^^ funny @JBF ... this is the same LIVE with Kelly video I was talking about yesterday when I said I based my -she picks noone- theory based on this ***typical saying goodbye to one OR TWO**** and once the guy told her: 'I knew it! you picked nobody', she has this OMG what did I say look to her handler.

i put aside this theory based on the the popular pressure that jordan is F1, his hands in the limo looks like jordan's and if jordan is in the limo, chances are that he must be F1 .... or F2.

But so far, still not solid proof that 1/ he was in thailand 2/it is truly his hands. It is not like robby and chase that we know with the background that it IS thailand without a single doubt. For Jordan it is still speculations and sleuthing. strong ones, mind you but still not as clear as robby and chase.

So I have this option on my Tv to get the substitles.... and thought it was fun to retranscript some for analyze. The interesting part is not only the words because I am sure they spent hours to say many thing different ways but mostly WHY the prods decided to keep those words in their scripted scenario and figure it out some understanding or logic or whatever theories.


Jojo + Chris Harrison

Jojo: I am so excited to be in Buenos Aires, argentina (...). I feel the romance in the air and I know these guys are gonna love it. (...) And being here, I just feel like this could be the perfect setting to fall in love

jojo: Last week especially, having Robby, the first guy to tell me he was in love with me, that was a great moment for me, but I think it also, I don't know sometimes it makes me worry a little bit. I mean the last two guys that have told me that they loved me, it has not worked out.

Jojo: I Know that there's a few guys where I feel really strongly for. But those feelings are very similar. Chris, what if I fall in love with two people, just like Ben? I can see it. I mean, I can see how it happened.

Chris Harrison: The irony would be pretty thick.

(Jojo repeated 2 times that this week was going to be huge)

-

ITM in order:

Luke: I couln't think of a better place to fall in love in the entire world than Buenos Aires, Argentina.

Robby: you know it's kind of like a city of love. There's beautiful building, beautiful people.

(CH drop the 2:1 bomb)

Luke: to realize that there's gonna be a two-on-one where somebody goes home that day from that date, there's of lot of guys that their heads are spinning right now.

(why does Luke does not include himself here)

Jordan: I think everybody's heart sunk just a little bit. But we're taking in the Buenos Aires sights, were loving what the energy of the city have and hoping to get another one-on-one.

(date card)

Luke: I thik this is gonna drive the mood of the whole week right here

Robby: I cannot believe he hasn't kissed her yet. I haven't been able to keep my hands off her

Robby: If I was in well's shoes, I would walk out the door to the hotel room and do it right there. Get it out of the way. Let her know I mean business and set the tone for the rest of the day. I'm not sure if that's how he'll do it.

Jojo with the guys

Luke: are you guys gonna kiss today?

jojo: mmm that's funny, isn't it? (side look at Luke)

==

then we see wells and jojo wandering in street and it ends with..... a pigeon cooing...

this is not the first time that the edits show us pigeons... pigeons are called the city rats in here, is it the same in US? If so interesting the association of pigeons = rats = a$$ ... I am always interested to see what kind of animals the edits shows us.

==

Jojo: we finally did it (kissing wells first time)

==

Chase: up to this point, I was feeling incredibly confident with jojo.(...) If derek got the rose I would feel almost like betrayed. There's nothing that derek has over me.

Jojo: I hate nights like this. I think this is the first time that I realize how hard this could be. I can't imagine what the next few weeks are gonna be like, you know? That guys, that I really really like and care about, have strong feelings for. But if... this is one of my greatest fears.. I feel like at the end of all this, every goodbye I've ever had to make, every tough decision that I.. I've ever been forced to face has led me to the point that I.. I am so in love with somebody ... Like, what if it does not work out... it has not worked out any other time.... (crying). I don't want that.

(during this ITM, we see jojo in the place where people have fun and laugh... right after the 'I don,t want that' we see and hear people shouting, laughing and applauding when water goes down and jojo receiving the same treatment and we see her laughing and crying maybe)

==

end of wells. we can conclude that no romance here........

HEA wrote:i put aside this theory based on the the popular pressure that jordan is F1, his hands in the limo looks like jordan's and if jordan is in the limo, chances are that he must be F1 .... or F2.

Just curious. Are the ONLY hands being compared to Limo Guy and Holding Hands Guy in the episode 6/finale promo Jordan's and Robby's? Not Luke or Chase?

Don't use these images I was looking at earlier. They are lousy. Somebody needs to do hi definition images rather than YouTube blow-ups in the screencap discussion.

JBF wrote:

HEA wrote:i put aside this theory based on the the popular pressure that jordan is F1, his hands in the limo looks like jordan's and if jordan is in the limo, chances are that he must be F1 .... or F2.

Just curious. Are the ONLY hands being compared to Limo Guy and Holding Hands Guy in the episode 6/finale promo Jordan's and Robby's? Not Luke or Chase?

It seems that Luke has big long fingers, chase a bit fatter, robby has hairs on top side and spatula thumb and it looks like the best match is jordan.

and yes this is the only visible clue that says that jordan is F1.

The second clue is that a very close up, we can see hairs on the side. but it could be shadows. It is not a very clear close up at all. I had to enlarged at least 250% to see the dark shadows possibly hairs.

But for Jordan. Yes. the only clue that we have right now is anonymous hands holding a ring box in a car and a voice over from him in this episode (or previous) that he is ready to knee and propose (not the exact words). those words are not associated with the limo. The only words we hear are jojo saying that she cannot accept the love because the guy did something to her and it is hard for her to not accept..... as I said 80% voice over.

Then it seems that we can see 2 distinct different blue suit. A smart lady here found a slim on the sleeve which looks like a conclusive 2 distinct blue suit.

Has it been discussed yet that JoJo tweeted a hand drawn colored picture of a Unicorn with Diamonds and a rainbow today? Sure does point to Luke!!! But then she also liked a tweet pic of her with Robby kissing at the top of the cliff last week so....... Are they trying to hide the obvious with no pics of Jordan in Thailand? There is still the voice saying "Maybe I should just leave" from the previews, who is it? And the theory of both final 2 guys wearing the same color suit, Really? Her crying saying "I can't accept this love" could be to Robby her supposed Final 2 but may be an edit cut from a continuing sentence like "without you knowing how in love with you I am". Then again it could be to Jordan her supposed F1 because she realizes she can't really trust him so if her were to propose she could say no. Luke seems like he should be Final Guy from their scenes together but he was home before the final 3, right? Jo crying in her in the moment with the notes dressed in final rose ceremony dress :why: could Luke have written her a letter that makes her realize what she lost so she chooses no one since he is gone. I am so confused!!!!