NO SPOILERS - JORDAN - Bachelorette 12 - *Sleuthing - NO Spoilers*

veg_out wrote:This article was on a website that I read regularly: A Lesson from the Bachelorette on How to Spot a Lie

Do you ladies think that Jordan was lying at dinner?

I thought he was. So I asked my hubby (who hasn't watched the show at all) to watch part of that dinner date to see what he thought. He's done some investigating/interrogating-he said, it didn't 'look' like he was lying, he was probably more uncomfortable with the subject. Then he said he thought Jojo was the one being more deceiving! That surprised me! He looked at her while he was explaining things, and she kept looking off while she was saying her part.

It still looked fishy to me. Yeah, the pastor thing, gulping the water-seems to slick with his words and he doesn't seem genuine with Jojo. I'm not feeling his interest in her, jmo.

veg_out wrote:This article was on a website that I read regularly: A Lesson from the Bachelorette on How to Spot a Lie

Do you ladies think that Jordan was lying at dinner?

Before JoJo went into the whole ex-GF talk, she was opening herself up to him and being vulnerable about her fears getting her heart broken and what a number her ex did on her, Jordan didn't really empathize with her. No reassuring looks, just kind of a blank stare. It made me think he knew some kind of more serious talk was coming about him as if he was already in "defense position." 

He did seem uncomfortable and caught off guard.
I applaud him for his honesty and being forthcoming about his shortcomings in previous relationships. He didn't get rattled which I think is good, but I was expecting more emotion maybe? 
The eye contact could've been better. When JoJo said "I think this where I'm fearful because I find myself liking you a lot...I wouldn't want that to happen to me." He didn't look her in the eye or squeeze her hand to offer reassurance. 

JoJo seemed satisfied with what he told her. But as the author of that article stated, she wasn't just satisfied. She went in for a hug (which he backed away from at first) and said "Please don't be mad at me." Some strange BL.

I don't think this is a mutual relationship so far. And not sure it will be in the future. But I hope I can be proven wrong if he is her F1 (I'm leaning toward that not being the case.)

Lost17 wrote:

veg_out wrote:This article was on a website that I read regularly: A Lesson from the Bachelorette on How to Spot a Lie

Do you ladies think that Jordan was lying at dinner?

I thought he was. So I asked my hubby (who hasn't watched the show at all) to watch part of that dinner date to see what he thought. He's done some investigating/interrogating-he said, it didn't 'look' like he was lying, he was probably more uncomfortable with the subject. Then he said he thought Jojo was the one being more deceiving! That surprised me! He looked at her while he was explaining things, and she kept looking off while she was saying her part.

It still looked fishy to me. Yeah, the pastor thing, gulping the water-seems to slick with his words and he doesn't seem genuine with Jojo. I'm not feeling his interest in her, jmo.

I'm truly surprised at the edit that Jordan has received given that he's likely the biggest "star" that the show has ever had participate as a contestant. Equally, I'm perplexed that given the lead time between his name being in the press--I think it was at least a week or two before the end of Ben's season--and the start of the season, that he didn't negotiate an airtight contract. It makes me wonder about Jordan's behavior on set.

Your hubby's perspective is fascinating to me! Would you say that Jo was prodded to say that? Maybe she never had that conversation so essentially she was lying?!

Either way, at times I see interest in Jordan for JoJo; at other times, I wonder if he did get caught up in the competition, bubble, and went with it. Also, from previous contestants' reflections, these guys (and girls) spend so much of their experience on the show talking about love and former love; for the ones who make it into the top 4, they also must seriously consider--as seriously as you can for the Bachelor--if they're ready for an engagement. I wonder if reflecting on his past relationship and thinking about sharing one with JoJo gets to him. Maybe Katie was correct and this season is a story of redemption for Jordan.

It just doesn't fit with the story that's being told for JoJo.

agentcurls wrote:

I don't think this is a mutual relationship so far. And not sure it will be in the future. But I hope I can be proven wrong if he is her F1 (I'm leaning toward that not being the case.)

This sentence might sum up the way that I'm feeling so far this season and why it feels odd: There's no reciprocal relationship. @AllAboutLove also mentioned it when she was describing the lack of "it" between any of the couples, like we saw with JP and Ash, Lauren and Ben, Shawn and Kait, Des and Chris (later). I distinctly remember watching the Hong Kong date between Ash and JP and being like, "Wow, they are both falling in love with each other." After that, at every date, I could see this deepening of their relationship and care and concern for each other. If the show wanted me to believe that Jordan was in this for JoJo, why would they leave in the edit, "I'm in this for me"?

As we discussed, Jo is chasing Jordan's affection, seeking his validation; she reacted to Chad when she heard that he threatened Jordan; of all the guys in the room during the tabloid mess, we see only her address to Jordan. He's her focus. Is it right now or is she "blinded" by Jordan that she really can't see Luke, Robby, or Chase?

Though I think that she likes Luke, Robby, and Chase, I haven't seen enough (sorry, Lost and Mia) to convince me that she's gone for one of them more than Jordan. They are working hard to woo her, though. Two of them have already told her that they are falling for her or are in love with her. Even with Chase, I wonder if she's writing him off as a friend (which could change this week).

There's no JP and Ash yet.

Another note: Men, unlike women, usually back away from a woman when they know that someone in their group wants to pursue her. It seems like Chase is close to Alex, Jordan, and Robby based on Derek's "clique" reference. If one of them indicated that they want her, shouldn't we start to see one or more of them pull back a bit?

P.S. Couldn't help the double post!

Ooooo such great posts up there!!^ More to dream about ...er, mull over. This was my initial take at the time and while I still feel this way to a large extent, and some thoughts overlap with y'alls, I'm fairly sure it's not as black and white as what my initial thoughts were but here they are anyway. 

I watched closely, rewound often, scrutinized as usual and asked my repeated scene by scene, question, "Why are TPTB showing me what they're showing me?" 

In this scene, they showed me that Jordan was lying—plain and simple. And I'm not saying he wasn't, but.....
watching Jordan's face for the exact moment when his expression first changes, is at the VERY mention of his ex-girlfriend. 

My first thought was, he's still in love with her!! Then I put myself in his shoes and thought, he's completely taken off guard! It would definitely be a jolt that's for sure. All of a sudden, out of nowhere, he's thrust back in time forced to think of someone he was very close to. Someone he was thinking of marrying. And all at a time when he'd least expect to. 

What might run through my mind if someone I loved was randomly brought up and when I least expected it? Well if I'm being simple, hurt or sadness if it had been a painful breakup or a warm memory if there was a lot of love there....and a ton of more emotions because we all know that love isn't simple. Either way, she's in his head now and he can't just shut it off like a faucet. So yes Lost, similar to your husband's take. 

I felt sorry for both of them. Him for being forced to feel difficult emotions at the most inopportune time. Her for likely being coerced to bring it up at a time and in a manner she knew wasn't ideal or maybe not even fair. I considered that this is likely why she quickly rushed through an important conversation which isn't like (what we know of) her at all. It could also be why she seemed confused by his expressions and answers where I normally find her to be more in tune with people she's talking with. I don't know, JMOAA.

^If JoJo was coerced into discussing this, do you think she did it because once Jordan said he was falling in love, the first obstacle was over? So now TPTB have her interjecting another obstacle in there so they have a season? She really did seem to brush over it. She was hanging on to his every word and was willing to leave it at " you've blown me away." 

To your point, @veg_out, it does seem like she isn't letting herself fall for others , or letting others fully "in" because she is settled on Jordan. It kind of reeks of Des' season? 

Jordan's edit: It's not great. Is it because:
1) They are trying to cast doubt on F1?
2) Did Jordan do something to hurt JoJo? Did he disrupt the season?
3) Is this a cautionary tale of JoJo staying with her old patterns instead of trying out a different kind of more mutual love?
4) Is this edit a function of where TPTB think this relationship might go post-show? Down a path that might not be promising? 
5) Is Jordan (antagonist) the symbol of the problems JoJo used to have in relationships (unreciprocal love, no trust, cheating) and Luke, Robby, or Chase (protagonist?) are the answer to JoJo's love obstacle?

Personally, I think Jordan wants to "win" more than he wants to be engaged to JoJo.

Agent, I could say yes to all 5 of your reasons!

veg, we all see things differently...some see connections that others don't. Guess it's all in how you look at the editing and body language and who you're interested in. I'm not interested in Jordan, but I do see Jojo pursuing him..before the show I think she built him into something that might not be right for her and who knows maybe he is, but she had preconceived ideas and liked what she saw. Will she open her eyes to who he really is and will she still like it? He's definitely not into her like she is him, so we'll see how that plays out.

I could talk about Luke and the strong connection/attraction she has with him, but most of you won't believe me...btw believe me, she sees Luke!

This next group date should tell us something with Jordan, Luke & Robby all on the same date.

As to your prodding question, I have no idea..hubby said it's possible, but without knowing the whole context of things it's hard to know. She probably was fed a few lines/doubts, she sure wants him to be Mr. Perfect, or more... the ideal of what she thinks she wants.

rhondam wrote:Agent, I could say yes to all 5 of your reasons!

6) will Jordan get redemption?

IMO, Jordan is getting a horrible edit. I even think that tptb used Chad as their attack dog towards Jordan. Maybe they whispered in Chad's ear that they would do him some favors (BIP?) if he went for Jordan's jugular. I do think Chad suffered from 1) probable 'roid rage 2) a need to be the uber-alpha male and 3) may have wanted airtime for his own gains even if that meant he'd be edited as a bully. Jordan was frequently seen insulting Chad to Chad's face. Chad, by no means, was innocent of bad behavior, but Jordan played right into it. So, if tptb wanted to throw some insults at Jordan, they could use Chad to do their dirty deeds, and they'd get their drama because Jordan couldn't help himself but engage in the back and forth. The other men were much better at voicing their opinions or keeping their mouths shut so as not to escalate things. Jordan and Alex were much too alpha to let things slide.

I cannot help but think that tptb hated Jordan for some reason throughout filming or because Jojo's FRC was a total disaster due to his being the only man she fell in love with even though he was a fraud.

Way too many things were left in the edit to ignore. I keep thinking about Chad's comment that the 'good guys' are the ones she needs to worry about- foreshadowing.

As for the dinner talk about ex, if Jordan wasn't lying (which I think he did lie somewhat - saying he didn't cheat but only flirt with girls while dating the ex while not literal cheating was a big red flag. He says he talked marriage and loved theex, yet he was flirting elsewhere?) where is Andi's lie detector test when you need it? Maybe they can swing by Italy? He blinked, licked his lips, took a sip, diverted eyes, etc which made him look deceitful to me. She sounded a bit staged too, but it may have just been her discomfort with the topic. I think Jojo does not like confrontation, and she is way too accepting of crap and gives Jordan the benefit of the doubt too many times. We have heard her voice multiple times that she feels nervous, concerned, worried, etc about Jordan, yet she dismisses her own intuition and gutreaction. That is her downfall with the bad boy.

I think Jordan is subjected to Jojo's speech at the FRC about how she may have fallen in love with him, but she isn't going to settle for him. Whether she developed enough feelings gor one of the others to be able to choose him as a F1 or whether she walks away alone are still 2 very viable options at this point in time to me.

MiaHawk wrote:***snipped***
I think Jordan is subjected to Jojo's speech at the FRC about how she may have fallen in love with him, but she isn't going to settle for him. Whether she developed enough feelings gor one of the others to be able to choose him as a F1 or whether she walks away alone are still 2 very viable options at this point in time to me.

Mia, I loved your whole post. Your conclusion above is basically where I'm leaning. It actually would be refreshing to see JoJo make this growth step. If she ends up alone, I'll be sad; but she'll be in such a better place to be in a loving relationship down the road.
_______________

I had typed the following before Mia posted...so it doesn't really flow. I'm posting it anyway...

What I find so odd is that JoJo addressed rumors in her blog of her knowing Jordan before the season began. She clearly admitted that she knew he would likely be on her season. Now we find out she met and talked to his ex. Something doesn't feel right about this.

I have no idea where Jordan played in the NFL. If it were for the Cowboys or Texans, then maybe I could buy it. But if not, something seems fixed that JoJo should "happen" to run into his ex. First of all, how many people do you run into that you start having a conversation about an ex immediately? Unless, this person recognized JoJo and went up to her because Jordan was being reported, well before Ben's season concluded, to be going on the Bachelorette. Still, this feels a little too convenient to me.

^ Wow! All such great posts. It's great that we can keep this conversation going for the week to fill the void of not seeing a new episode

My gut tells me that Jordan was lying. Whether it was a lying by omission or outright lying, it was still a lie. And it is interesting. Because in the preview where we see her asking Robby if he left his ex to come on the show, her eyes say, IMO that she doesn't believe him. Anyways, I digress. What I have wondered recently is why TPTB decided to cast Jordan so late. They had all the other guys lined up and I'm sure they had extras waiting to come on the list. Did they sign him up because they felt he was the real deal for JoJo?

Well, I happen to think that TPTB are like demi-gods. They see and know EVERYTHING. I won't be surprised at all if TPTB knew about Jordan's "unfaithful" ways or the fact that he likes to flirt around with girls. I am certain that TPTB knew this before. Perhaps he was supposed to be the wrench in her path to find love. I believe that the original storyboard would have casted Chase or Luke as the F1 - not Robby. Robby was no where near their radar which is why in the earlies, we didn't have that much commentary from him.

I think back to Andi's season. I heard somewhere - either from Andi or otherwise that TPTB did a lot of work to steer her away from Josh. Because the show would not have lasted beyond episode 2. So they do a lot of coaxing, setting up mini-dates (e.g Chase) to create an alternative for the lead and to "test" the strength of her relationship with the existing F1.

As mentioned before, I don't Jordan is in it for marriage. Remember how she had to prod him and basically beg Jordan to get engaged when she told him she really wants to be engaged. This relationship is unbalanced. I always say it's better for a man to be more into a woman than the other way around.

I just don't see the level of concern from Jordan when JoJo is crying or upset by something. Like JoJo, I get a nervous feeling with him, something is off. He seems like a player to me. And as the next episode alludes, we see Jordan makes a comment and it surprises JoJo as she doesn't know a side of him.

So, I think this edit is similar to the JPG edit. My goodness, TPTB did not paint him well at all. And why? Because he's a D-bag. I don't see this case being any different. I'm sure JoJo is thinking "with me things will be different" "With me, he'll change, I'll change him". But if you have reservations now, they will only get amplified later on. I wish JoJo luck if he's F1.