THE BACHELORETTE - SEASON 12 - JOJO FLETCHER - **NO SPOILERS** - Episode Discussion - *SLEUTHING* DISCUSSION

AllAboutLove wrote:ITA that Chase is a gem! :Nod: Chase really is very grounded to me. He doesn't get all overly emotional with the ups and downs but I think that is a very good thing and like you said, he is rock solid and has great communication skills, imo. In some ways, how Chase is not overtly emotional reminds me of Becca or even Ben (but not as charismatic as Ben is), just even-keel. I think Chase is ready for marriage and to settle down and knows what he wants. With Luke at F4 I am thinking the only shot JoJo has now of a solid future is Chase as F1 and maybe that 2on1 was what she needed to see that Chase has the actions already and he just needed to verbalize? If not F1 then I hope he is F3 with a shot at next lead. Then again, with this show, someone as normal as him he may be better off finding the one for him without the "help" of TPTB.  

I'm not sure that I would have described Ben as being charismatic before he became the Bachelor. One of my worries about him during Kaitlyn's season was that he seemed too bland, vanilla, and low-key to me in terms of taking on the lead. But he ended up doing a fine job as the Bachelor, and he was a great favorite with both the cast members and the fans. I could see Chase being the same.

I agree that Chase's temperament is very even keel, just like Becca and Ben.

Jordan -- to me he's another Josh Murray (Andi Dorfman's F1.) He's the type to grab Jojo's heart, spend some time with her, and then walk away. I could be mistaken, but that's how I'm reading it right now. I know the type -- fell for one myself very hard back in the day. They fall in love on their own schedule, not on someone else's, and often for someone who is not immediately obvious. They take their sweet time in marrying. All IMO, of course.

Amethyst wrote:Watching Jojo with Wells, and later Derek, I was struck by how transparent she is. When she's not into a certain guy, it shows.

Having said that, I was really confused by her choice of men for the 2-on-1. Chase, fine, but why Derek? To me, it seems logical that you choose someone you are pretty sure that you want, and someone you are pretty sure that you don't want. So Chase/Alex or even Chase/JT might have made more sense. It made me wonder what went wrong with Derek, who seems on the surface to have all the virtues.

But I don't think this date was about Derek so much as it was about Chase. IMO Jojo wanted to use the uncertainty of a 2-on-1 to push Chase to more of a commitment in terms of revealing his emotions. She wanted to put him in the hot seat. And in that, she was successful. She may have selected Derek as an entirely plausible competitor for Chase. Chase probably wouldn't have taken Alex or JT nearly as seriously as Derek. Jojo had to make Chase sweat. And she did. Which tells me that she is likely *very* serious about him.

Luke is gorgeous and hot. I'd be shocked if he doesn't make it to the Fantasy Suite.

Jordan -- there is a residual attraction there, but with this episode I got the feeling that his star is fading.

Robbie -- I still don't get him.

JT and Alex -- I was rather intrigued by the fact that Jojo couldn't make the call. It shouldn't have been that tricky. I think that she really likes both, but that they've both been essentially friend zoned. I think the real reason that she wants both around is that they are the "truth tellers" of this season. If Jojo wants to know the dirt of what's going on between the men, she knows they will tell her. IMO she does wants to know. That's why, even though I didn't care for JT's revelation about Jordan, I don't think it hurt him in Jojo's eyes. He's not an F4, but he still holds value for her.

As for the next Bachelor -- IMO Chase and Derek are most like the type they tend to go for.

This is how I see it, too. I think it's strange that she hasn't narrated much about her feelings towards Chase. 
I think she has been rather vague about her feelings towards all of the guys, TBH. 
But I really like her vulnerability and softness during her conversation with Chase. She looked him the eye and told him softly what she needed from him. 
And this head bob when Chase told her he wanted his future to involve her.

This bit from Jordan sticks out:
"I love that we can go through tough stuff like that, and I hope that it's all cleared up. I'm not going to let you down, I promise. (kiss) I'll show ya." 
Either positive or negative foreshadowing...
Chase in VO that's overlaid over Jorjo kissing silhouette:
"She came in here and said these conversations tonight are going to be really important to me (ie: Jo), so..."  
Camera back on Chase to Luke "Yeah, I have a rose tonight, but we don't have room to slip back at all."

agentcurls wrote:This bit from Jordan sticks out:
"I love that we can go through tough stuff like that, and I hope that it's all cleared up. I'm not going to let you down, I promise. (kiss) I'll show ya." 
Either positive or negative foreshadowing...
Chase in VO that's overlaid over Jorjo kissing silhouette:
"She came in here and said these conversations tonight are going to be really important to me (ie: Jo), so..."  
Camera back on Chase to Luke "Yeah, I have a rose tonight, but we don't have room to slip back at all."

That Jordan quote stood out to me too, agent. It just seems that when he is pushed, he delivers exactly what he thinks she wants to hear. The rest of the time he is content to sit back and let her do all the chasing. And, somehow, I think JoJo likes a challenge. It all seems too much like game play. Unless Jordan has this huge emotional growth spurt in the next few weeks, Jordan as F1 doesnt equal happy ending to me.

I am spoiled, but I just want to tell all of you how much enjoyment that I have gotten (from watching JoJo's season) by coming here to read your comments, knowing that you are all watching this season completely unspoiled.  It has been so much more fun for me to get to see these things through your unfiltered eyes - without any of the usual preconceived ideas about these guys influencing your perspectives on them, which so often happens if we enter the season knowing what has already been spoiled about the show, even before we see the very first episode!!!

So, I want you to know that you guys here have added a layer of enjoyment to this season for me, and I want to thank you for that.  It actually makes me wish that we could go back to the time before RS came onto the scene with his spoilers and before SM was so prevalent.  Keep up the good work, because you guys rock!!!

@Longhornfan, Thank you! 

^ Thanks Longhornfan!

I just posted about this in a different thread. I think that as an unspoiled viewer I can still feel strongly for one or more of her guys, and I can still view the men with my personal biases. I don't know what rumors or innuendos about these guys are true or not true, so I am going purely but my own gut feeling about what I'm seeing on this show. I know there are lots of editing tricks, characters/storylines, highlighting of favorites for future leads, etc which skews what we actually get to see.

I'm basing my opinions of the men on what qualities I value and what values I think they are exhibiting. I'm more apt to dislike a man if I actually see something that I do not like or appreciate. An example would be Alex who is a mini-me version of bully Chad. He is confrontational, and I don't like that in a person. I'm also watching how each man interacts with Jojo herself. Are they appearing to understand one another, how do they communicate, how are they at listening, do they appear to say 'all the right things' at precisely the right moment and come across as disingenuous to me?

I think that when I know the outcome of the show before it happens, that I am more quick to judge these contestants - for good or for bad. I can justify what I am seeing and give certain people the benefit of the doubt. What's been fascinating for me personally being unspoiled is I have been enlightened to my own biases. By reading the comments of other posters who have differing points of views I have actually taken pause to consider Why do I think and feel the way that I do about some of these men? In some cases, I have reversed my opinions or at minimum been less judgmental. So, I guess for me, being unspoiled has been a good experience for me so far. Afterall, I really have no control over these contestants and how they live their lives, but maybe I can actually learn something about myself along the way.

Amethyst wrote:Jordan -- to me he's another Josh Murray (Andi Dorfman's F1.) He's the type to grab Jojo's heart, spend some time with her, and then walk away. I could be mistaken, but that's how I'm reading it right now. I know the type -- fell for one myself very hard back in the day. They fall in love on their own schedule, not on someone else's, and often for someone who is not immediately obvious. They take their sweet time in marrying. All IMO, of course.

I wanted to expand a little more on my perception of Jordan as being a certain "type" which I have seen before. So here are some characteristics:

Positive qualities: Tall, well-built, handsome, killer smile, charming, outgoing, gregarious, fun to be with, confident, possessing leadership ability, intelligent (but not intellectual,) athletic (often across multiple sports,) graceful in movement. This type tends to gravitate toward jobs with a lot of public exposure such as sales, marketing, sports, announcing, broadcasting, public relations, advertising account representative, etc. On a college campus, they might be the student body president, a fraternity president, homecoming king, NCAA varsity athlete, or simply prominent and popular. They get a lot of attention from women.

Negative qualities: Can be to varying degrees somewhat self-absorbed, self-interested, egocentric, lacking in empathy, shallow, cynical, and/or wary. These are qualities that can take a while to uncover. Their confidence can be mistaken as arrogance (I think this is JT's perception of Jordan.) Their cynicism and wariness (often exacerbated by women constantly throwing themselves at them) tend to make them slow to fall in love and marry. Since they have so much to offer they can be privately cynical of other people and their motives in wanting to befriend them.

Generally the positive qualities are so outstanding that people tend to overlook or excuse the negative qualities.

That's what I fear in Jordan. Feel free to disagree, as always.

I think I can speak for many other spoiled posters, you are all doing a fantastic job. The rule in the Non spoiled thread is if you are spoiled, please do not post in the non spoiled threads.

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Lost17 wrote:

veg_out wrote:
I'm still trying to unpack this thing, and a part of me wonders if that scene of JoJo on a date alone was portentous.

YES! It gave me a weird vibe, and seemed out of place. And the 'saddish' type music during Wells dinner date while she's talking in response to Wells' losing that spark in a relationship, etc (just posted my thoughts there in Luke's thread)...then going into that odd music after she lets him go talking about what if it doesn't work out for her, it hasn't any other time, showing the guy get shot once again etc, that whole scene was maybe some type of foreshadowing...then the music during Chase's..I can't even remember what Derek said throughout that, but I'm sure it goes with the rest of the theme of the episode. At least Luke got some romantic music.

Ive been thinking about the Wells date again. The discussion about what she wants for her fairytale ending. Wells asks if what she wants even exists. She is very adamant that it does and that everyone deserves that type of love. Then Wells is just silent. Then she goes to the show alone walking into an almost surreal atmosphere. At the time I thought they were building on what they started with the FRC preview that she ends up alone. But I think they were also adding on to the Wells convo, asking is she alone in her own dreams that what she wants even exists and is attainable.

For what its worth, I dont think she walks away alone. They are certainly trying to plant that seed though.

moonchild wrote:

agentcurls wrote:This bit from Jordan sticks out:
"I love that we can go through tough stuff like that, and I hope that it's all cleared up. I'm not going to let you down, I promise. (kiss) I'll show ya." 
Either positive or negative foreshadowing...
Chase in VO that's overlaid over Jorjo kissing silhouette:
"She came in here and said these conversations tonight are going to be really important to me (ie: Jo), so..."  
Camera back on Chase to Luke "Yeah, I have a rose tonight, but we don't have room to slip back at all."

That Jordan quote stood out to me too, agent.  It just seems that when he is pushed, he delivers exactly what he thinks she wants to hear.  The rest of the time he is content to sit back and let her do all the chasing.  And,  somehow, I think JoJo likes a challenge.  It all seems too much like game play.  Unless Jordan has this huge emotional growth spurt in the next few weeks, Jordan as F1 doesnt equal happy ending to me.  

I'm not sure TPTB think there will be a long term happy ending with Jordan either based on the edit this season. 

I do think JoJo likes a challenge, and I think Chase is offering one of his own. He has yet to tell her he is falling in love and I think it's driving her a little crazy.

agentcurls wrote:

moonchild wrote:

agentcurls wrote:This bit from Jordan sticks out:
"I love that we can go through tough stuff like that, and I hope that it's all cleared up. I'm not going to let you down, I promise. (kiss) I'll show ya." 
Either positive or negative foreshadowing...
Chase in VO that's overlaid over Jorjo kissing silhouette:
"She came in here and said these conversations tonight are going to be really important to me (ie: Jo), so..."  
Camera back on Chase to Luke "Yeah, I have a rose tonight, but we don't have room to slip back at all."

That Jordan quote stood out to me too, agent.  It just seems that when he is pushed, he delivers exactly what he thinks she wants to hear.  The rest of the time he is content to sit back and let her do all the chasing.  And,  somehow, I think JoJo likes a challenge.  It all seems too much like game play.  Unless Jordan has this huge emotional growth spurt in the next few weeks, Jordan as F1 doesnt equal happy ending to me.  

I'm not sure TPTB think there will be a long term happy ending with Jordan either based on the edit this season. 

I do think JoJo likes a challenge, and I think Chase is offering one of his own. He has yet to tell her he is falling in love and I think it's driving her a little crazy.

To borrow JJ's line, Its CRAA-ZZYY (but used in a different context) She spends all of this time telling everyone what she wants in a man, a relationship, a marriage and then goes after the guy that she has to drag along kicking and screaming, constantly questioning that IMO doesnt even give her the basics. Its like TPTB are saying ito the viewers in advance, See, we told you it wouldnt work out.