THE BACHELORETTE - SEASON 12 - JOJO FLETCHER - **NO SPOILERS** - SCaps - *SLEUTHING* DISCUSSION

AllAboutLove wrote:**snipped**
I totally agree about Jordan versus Shawn B... Shawn was all in. Jordan doesn't seem like that to me - even more so because he got FIR, and JoJo saying she didn't think he was as into her as she was into him (which I agree with, I don't see Jordan into JoJo as much as she is into him) although she seems to have progressed from that line of thinking. 

The problem I am having is that in the episode this past week JoJo seemed like she couldn't care less what "reasons" Jordan was coming up with. In a way she was feeling bad for him when he was explaining his mistakes - a red flag if ever I saw one! Also, in the season preview which must be in the next episode or something she was saying to Jordan how happy he makes her when he tells her he has fallen for her (in comparison to her response to Robby which was "thank you", her response to Jordan was much more reassuring, imo).

So even though I don't see Jordan chasing JoJo I do however see JoJo chasing Jordan and have a hard time seeing JoJo letting him go based on how much reassurance and chasing she seems to be giving him? 1) sending Chad home once she found out he had threatened Jordan 2) not wanting Jordan to be upset when she questioned him about his past 3) telling him he makes her so happy when he says he's fallen for her in the season promo.

All this makes me hesitant to see JoJo letting Jordan go and if Jordan wasn't seen/heard telling JoJo he is falling for her/fallen for her then I would entertain a possibility of him being like Brooks and leaving. But because Jordan is saying all that and seen with a ring so likely at FRC? Makes it hard for me to think JoJo lets him go or he leaves at all? 

Then again, Jordan could be F2 and be another Nick with FIR/F2 (Andi's season) except, unlike Nick 1.0 who was let go before FRC, Jordan is not let go before FRC and so has an ending like Nick 2.0 (Kaitlyn's season)... So Chase or Robby for F1?

kimberlyg wrote:Maybe Luke ends up leaving after HTD's and that's why JoJo is sad on the helicopter pad?  Like, he seems into her, but definitely more guarded and calmer than some of the other guys.  I don't think he comes back or anything; just that he's too serious and not right for her?  Because otherwise, it just seems surprising to me that Jordan/Luke don't end up as the F2 based on the edit and how much more she seems to like them than the others (despite Robby's random skyrocket which I'm guessing is just entirely based on physical chemistry and not much else).

Also, I think Jordan's answer on his ex seemed sincere to me.  She's an ex and he probably wasn't the best to her, but he was also in his early 20's, in the NFL and failing while his brother became one of the biggest superstars on the planet.  That's a lot to emotionally unpack for a young guy who was probably used to always excelling but being second-best.  He got an opportunity to do the show and jumped at it, thinking great if he meets the perfect girl, with possibly a chance of getting an ESPN announcing gig.

I guess I just don't see the red flags when it comes to Jordan.  He's not getting the Shawn B. crazy-and-obsessed edit, doesn't seem as detatched as Brooks did, and seems like he really likes JoJo.  Their biggest issue is that he can't seem to get her to be on the same page and she just isn't fully comfortable with him...  which up until the ring pics made me think that he wouldn't be F1 and that it would be Luke (who she seems to trust and seem equally attracted to/interested in and has the added advantage of living in TX and wouldn't involve a crazy move on either of their parts).

To the bold points above, I believe Jordan is 100% definitely and sincerely into JoJo but for her, he is not reassuringly coming across that way initially. He shows concern for her confusion and doubt about him that he learned from her on the bench in front of the mansion. He says in his interview after the pool party:

"That was an eye opening conversation for me because I am starting to develop feelings for JoJo and for her to not see that, it's a problem. It's not that I don't wanna be vulnerable, but that's something that takes a little time for me, and, I come off like I've got it all figured out, and I don't want her to think this doesn't mean as much as it really does to me."

To me, the reason for much of JoJo's doubt and hesitation stems from lack of trust. Lack of trust in her own ability to discern if a potential guy will deceive, and in particular, cheat as Chad did. Or hurt her by leaving her, likely for another girl, like Ben did. 

I questioned the edit during Jordan and JoJo's discussion about his ex. In his interview at the hotel about the tabloid incident, he says:

"That was tough. It was tough bc we had just gone through a conversation similar to this. Someone spreading lies and things that aren't true. After that I wanted to reassure her, my feelings for her and my trust in her character and the person she is."

I believe Jordan fell in love with her and that he is sincere. I believe he is a nice guy and as I've said before, the edit is throwing doubt toward him. I believe he is her F1 and that they are a great match and are likely very happy. That makes me happy for both of them!
:sweetheart:

^rhondam, it's great to see you and kim rounding out the perspective on Jordan. It encourages me to examine other lanes of traffic on the way to the FRC. I've been hard on Jordan just b:c I didn't like the way he egged on Chad, but all of the top 3 (assuming that Luke is F4) have been involved in the "clique" mentality. I can't write him off yet as being good for JoJo just b:c of that, though.

Perhaps given his past, TPTB knew that they needed to routinely push him by way of having JoJo doubt or prod him in order to make him commit. Like, he needed to really be ready for this relationship and one that will likely be highly public.

I agree with you that I don't see the same reluctance in Jordan that I did in Brooks. He is obviously attracted to her and interested in her; he has shown that he cares about reassuring her when she starts questioning his feelings. He stepped out of his comfort zone after the football date to be vulnerable with her about his feelings. I'm just wondering if the constant questioning of him gets to him.

We'll just need to keep watching the two of them. There's so much left to this thing.

I am not sure if Jordan is sincere or not. The same goes for the other guys too since it's hard while the show is airing for me to establish if they are truly sincere - especially when this show is a lot about trying to get the Bach gig/other opportunities which is totally fine but makes it difficult for me to determine if the contestants/lead are sincere 100%. For me, I think whether Jordan or the others are sincere I will know more after this whole thing ends since so far I can only go with what is being shown/edited and past history of this show can certainly be skewing things.

That being said, I do see Jordan much more interested in JoJo than Brook was with Des. I don't get the vibe that Jordan is wanting to leave at all. Jordan is shown saying he is/has fallen for JoJo and s/caps of him at FRC don't make me think he would ever leave like Brooks did. My doubts include JoJo and her saying she had doubts about Jordan and Jordan having to defend himself - which I understand could be frustrating for him. In some ways the trust issue thing reminded me of Josh M and Andi but Josh had much more of a temper/attitude that I don't see in Jordan. Trust issues though are never a good thing regardless of whether it is just an ex for Jordan, JoJo has those doubts which give me pause regardless of the guy. Also, that JoJo is asking Jordan if he's ready for an engagement is the other doubt I have. I don't know if he is ready (not that any of them are) and that's my hesitancy along with JoJo chasing Jordan more than he has her, imo. My preference has always been that the guy chases the girl more than the girl the guy. But that's just me.

From the edit so far and s/caps of Jordan with a ring box I do agree Jordan is likely F1. I just don't see him as all in the way Shawn was or even Des's Chris was?  At least not yet. Josh M I never saw all in (I thought Andi was chasing him more than he was her) and I never saw Josh as ready for marriage. So while Jordan is different in personality to me than Josh M, I see similarities in that I don't have the vibe that Jordan is ready for marriage just yet. Then again when it comes to this show that could just be par for the course.

Let's say the preview is misleading...that Jordan didn't leave...that no one did anything to her that "wasn't right." And Jordan moves on into a HTD, FD, etc...I am curious to see how tptb spin it so that there is still some suspense with Jordan in that F4 mix? The 2 ILY's would be hard to top.

AllAboutLove wrote:I am not sure if Jordan is sincere or not. The same goes for the other guys too since it's hard while the show is airing for me to establish if they are truly sincere - especially when this show is a lot about trying to get the Bach gig/other opportunities which is totally fine but makes it difficult for me to determine if the contestants/lead are sincere 100%. For me, I think whether Jordan or the others are sincere I will know more after this whole thing ends since so far I can only go with what is being shown/edited and past history of this show can certainly be skewing things.

That being said, I do see Jordan much more interested in JoJo than Brook was with Des. I don't get the vibe that Jordan is wanting to leave at all. Jordan is shown saying he is/has fallen for JoJo and s/caps of him at FRC don't make me think he would ever leave like Brooks did. My doubts include JoJo and her saying she had doubts about Jordan and Jordan having to defend himself - which I understand could be frustrating for him. In some ways the trust issue thing reminded me of Josh M and Andi but Josh had much more of a temper/attitude that I don't see in Jordan. Trust issues though are never a good thing regardless of whether it is just an ex for Jordan, JoJo has those doubts which give me pause regardless of the guy. Also, that JoJo is asking Jordan if he's ready for an engagement is the other doubt I have. I don't know if he is ready (not that any of them are) and that's my hesitancy along with JoJo chasing Jordan more than he has her, imo. My preference has always been that the guy chases the girl more than the girl the guy. But that's just me.

From the edit so far and s/caps of Jordan with a ring box I do agree Jordan is likely F1. I just don't see him as all in the way Shawn was or even Des's Chris was?  At least not yet. Josh M I never saw all in (I thought Andi was chasing him more than he was her) and I never saw Josh as ready for marriage. So while Jordan is different in personality to me than Josh M, I see similarities in that I don't have the vibe that Jordan is ready for marriage just yet. Then again when it comes to this show that could just be par for the course.

Excellent points regarding the true sincerity/reason for EVERY contestant going on this show, and I totally agree.   :Nod:

As for asking Jordan if he'd be ready to get engaged, In this accelerated process, I do think it's reasonable to ask the one you are falling for if they are ready to be engaged. In real life many different conversations happen and we usually know if our partners are ready for the next step. I wonder if all leads ask their potential F1. If so, I doubt it would be left in the edit often, because to do so would highlight the fact that getting engaged after only meeting someone 8-10 weeks before is generally not considered a good idea by most folks. 

Man pursuing woman would be my preference also. I wonder if she was actually chasing him as much as we're shown? Initially I could see a lot of that as her way of trying to find out if he was as into her as she was into him? I think that is a common reaction most of us have (especially women) when we meet someone new that we really like. We see that on night one, they were mutually on the same page in their feelings for each other. As they spent time together, she wondered if that was really the case because he was somewhat hesitant but as he's said, it takes him a little time to be vulnerable. That too is understandable and JoJo even told him that it took her until week 5 to open up. She said to him on the bench in front of the mansion, she wondered if their connection on night one was too good to be true. 

I do think Jordan was confident that JoJo liked him. Maybe one reason he is perceived or shown to be somewhat uninterested in her is because he didn't go out of his way to draw attention to that fact in front of the guys. If anything, when in a group, he hung back and let her guide their interactions. That might've also added to her confusion if she is used to alphas trying to mark their territory. I think it was mature and respectful of him—he was confident in how she felt about him and didn't want to rub it in the other guys' faces. It was also respectful to JoJo because he knew she was in an unusual and awkward position in the group settings. JMO 

ETA I agree AC, I am curious how they will spin this. How did they spin Shawn's or did they? I don't remember already.

Doesn't really matter how TPTB spin this, we will all be dizzy when it's over. LOL.

ITA that this show is not the show for anyone to really be considered ready to be married.

That being said, it's only because the edit is showing JoJo questioning Jordan on being ready that makes me think TPTB have a reason for doing that.

They usually do the opposite, especially for next lead and F1, imo, and take Luke for example, the edit and JoJo saying he is ready for marriage and not shown with her questioning him like JoJo is with Jordan after he has already said he is falling for her.

Add in JoJo questioning Jordan about his past relationships (which made zero sense to me how she just happened to meet one of his exes but alrighty then) and even after being okay with his answer still shown in preview asking Jordan if he is ready for an engagement.

It's almost overkill, imo, how much the edit and JoJo herself is casting doubt on Jordan being ready to be engaged.  

JoJo, while chasing Jordan, has been questioning him from the getgo (she even said early on that she doesn't think he is as into her as she is him) so it could be just JoJo's insecurities from her own past relationships combined with her knowledge of Jordan's past (trust/cheating?) that makes her wary?

Still... JoJo/TPTB/edit seems to want to get Jordan to confirm again and again if he is ready to be engaged that makes me wonder if it is JoJo's intuition that is sensing he is not ready or it is just a TPTB ploy to cast doubt on Jordan's edit since he was FIR and last season FIR was F1?

^To your point, AAL, I think the edit could be painting a picture of how TPTB see Jorjo's trajectory going forward post-show. A fun, hot steamy romance that JoJo will still have to question because of the mix of her own insecurities coupled with Jordan's (self-admitted) shady past in relationships. Tptb probably wish them well but might not think they will make it to the altar.

Quite a contrast in edit to: JP and Ashley/Des and Chris S.    

But similar to: Jillian and Ed/ Andi and Josh

I don't remember Ed's edit so much. But I watched Josh and Andi a million times and the aspersions cast on Josh were no where near that of Jordan's. With Andi, she was questioning whether he was too good to be true, he doubted whether she could trust him. However, at no point was Josh's past called into question. At no point was there any other cast members saying he's only there for fame and fortune. So i think that the doubt on Jordan is amplified ten fold in this season. Like you suggested AC, it could be because TPTB are issuing a "disclaimer" about the probability of this relationship lasting in real life. The three main issues lurking for him IMO are:
1. Is he ready for marriage?
2. Is he a player?
3. Is he there for fame and fortune?

In Des and Chris, JP and Ashley and even Andi and Josh, those three were never issues IMO. IMO, the issues were:
1. Will my family (the lead) accept him? Is he too old/mature?
2. Why can't she (the lead) trust me?
3. Can I (the lead) receive the love of another when I let a man I love go? Can I embrace the kind of love that I have never received before?

So for me, it'll be hard for me to accept Jordan as the the F1 just because his character has been stained too much. For me to believe and accept the love between them, then Jordan will have to prove on all three counts that he is innocent. Yes, he did say he didn't "technically" cheat, he did say that he's ready for marriage. But why still in the next episode we have JoJo again saying there's a side of him she doesn't know. Why do we have the other guys ragging on him, if those issues have been fully closed?

agentcurls wrote:Let's say the preview is misleading...that Jordan didn't leave...that no one did anything to her that "wasn't right." And Jordan moves on into a HTD, FD, etc...I am curious to see how tptb spin it so that there is still some suspense with Jordan in that F4 mix? The 2 ILY's would be hard to top.

Could this be why the edit/JoJo is shown repeatedly asking Jordan if he is ready to be engaged?

Jordan as FIR and 2 ILY's in the mix I could see this being part of the case if there wasn't much else to go with to cast doubt on Jordan if Jordan is F1 other than to just get him to overcome some sort of obstacle before FRC.

^Really great posts! Avie, great insights and key concerns.

Something I've been mulling: The reason that James T is going after Jordan is multi-faceted, but namely it's because Jordan is the chief competition. James is this season's Leah, except I think that Jo cares more for James than Ben did Leah. We know that James most likely makes it to the next episode, so Jo won't handle him like Ben did Leah. Plus, James knows that he's likely out in that episode or the next one--go for broke.

The motive of TPTB though is the same as last season: Throw a wrench into the primary relationship and amp up Jo's doubt. We see that Jordan ends up having to defend himself to Jo and then likely again to the group. We also see a JoJo who looks either tired or like she's been crying. They are both likely affected by this.

Here's the thing: Sometimes this kind of stuff only pulls the couple together into an "us against the world" mentality.

We'll see how the 2:1 is edited and this group date. What a doozy!

IA. Great post @aviej! I posted my reply in Jordan's thread here since my thoughts are more about him than the s/caps.