Episode 11 - 8/1 Finale - Discussion - Spoilers

ironcat wrote:I think my impression of Chrystie actually improved a bit because I understand her thinking more, although I don't agree with it and still think she is too impressed with herself and how smart she is (when her instincts and judgment aren't all that exceptional to start with). It seems she felt it was her job to protect Ashley from falling victim to the same Bachelor Bubble that caused her to mistakenly think she was in love with Brad last season. Ash also apparently told her family about the Bentley situation, so big sis was convinced that she needed to be the objective and rational one, since little sis' gut couldn't be trusted. Unfortunately, since she doesn't see Ashley as an adult, but as a bubbly carefree kid, the more mature, sedate (and nervous) Ashley she observed with JP was immediately judged as "wrong", whereas her juvenile behavior with Ben was "right". (And of course, she was so convinced she was correct that she never even gave JP a real chance to defend himself.) I don't doubt that Chrystie may have even pulled Ben aside and told him he for sure was "the one" and that Ashley was, in her opinion, in love with him, thus unintentionally putting Ben on the road to overconfidence and ultimate heartbreak. And Chrystie also put enough "doubt" in Ashley's head (combined with the bit of a stand off she had with JP after his MTP and their untimely separation for a few days after), that I think Ash really tried on her LCD with Ben to find any sort of passion with him to compare with JP, which led her to ramp up the kissing a little to no avail, I suspect. However, Ben then took this as further proof that she must now be in love with him. And thus, confidence becomes overconfidence, which clearly led him to "jump the gun" on the proposal, and totally ignore her body language, awkward silence and "sad face" (the same one we analyzed for weeks here!) when he first got to the podium.

I felt that Ben was more shocked than angry when he got turned down. He did wish her luck with JP, obviously it wasn't heartfelt, but at least he tried to be a little gracious. His cluelessness about how JP was the "safer choice" when the reverse was true was I guess just some attempt at rationalization, but I'll give him a break because making the poor guy leave in a dinghy couldn't have made it any less humiliating. And does anyone still think after seeing that producer decision that this wasn't all set up and orchestrated by them for maximum humiliation?

Ironcat, thank you for a WONDERFUL post! Throughout the day today, I have been trying to wrap my head around the Chrystie issues, so I appreciate your insight. While I understand Chrystie's intentions, I think her "picker" is off, and she mistook Ashley's mature relationship for her not being herself (as in bolded above). I am still struggling with the doubt she put into Ashley's head and how Ashley got past it. I know she and JP had that talk during the LCD, and while they addressed real life issues and how their relationship will work IRL, I do not feel that they addressed the specific issues of doubt that Chrystie put into Ashley's head- and that Chrystie and Ashley discussed (except maybe Chrystie's concern that JP is "much older" than Ash). I guess the result is that Ashley took a step back and questioned how the relationship would work IRL- and the issue that bothered Chrystie (Ashley's fun side was gone) did not bother Ashley. Whatever the case, Ashley must have given JP the confidence to propose since he said he was questioning it after the MTP. I know we have a happy ending, but I have been trying to figure this part out... damn tptb!

Gina wrote:Libbybell. The pictures are in the non discussion JP/Ashley picture thread. There a ton of new ones in here:
http://bachandbachettefans.forumotion.com/t340p16-ashley-and-jp-pictures-no-discussion

That her gray big purse she takes everywhere: (these are 2 - there are alot of them)

OMG!!! Thanks so much Gina!! This made my day-- they are so cute!!

Realitynut45 wrote:Another comment on ben and JP being together with Ash during the orphanage date...one of the clips shows Ashley putting her hand prints on Ben's shirt, and JP is in the background in the doorway, watching and laughing. He certainly was keeping his 'eye' on her!!! Wish they would have shown the sc with her wrapped around JPs leg!!! oh sigh...

One of my all time favorite scenes. Hey! It got him out of the room when he stopped flirting with her.

That orphanage date is the most interesting group date of the season since it is the ONLY one with both final 2. She gave Ben the rose, but was all over JP, concerned that he may be stand-off-ish. He claimed she kissed him a lot more there than the previous 1 on 1, in one of today's interviews.

Yup... I would say that date did for Jordash what the Blue Lagoon/horsie ride date in Iceland did for Aliberto... only we saw NOTHING in that episode, with Roberto playing Find Waldo most of the show. (The editors worked on Ali's season with a meat cleaver.)

ironcat wrote:It sounded to me like Chrystie assumed that Ashley had arrived at her F2 almost by chance, and it was now up to her to decide which one was better, because Ashley's "gut" was unreliable due to the Bachelor Bubble, or as she referred to it, "the process". She seemed to think, however, that Ashley was just looking for a playmate, not a spouse, in which case, yeah, Ben was a more suitable pick. You would think if she was as protective a big sister as she claimed to be, she would be looking for someone who would make sure her baby sister was treated right and taken care of, and she would have enquired of both guys more about their careers, future plans, emotional maturity, stability, etc. Nope, it was all about someone who could make her laugh (and unfortunately Ashley bungled that question, which immediately put Chrystie on alert), as if that was the only thing that mattered. And Ashley herself is such a bubbly person that what she really needs (and I think she figured it out) is someone to be a willing, appreciative, and loving straight man to her zaniness, just like JP. That's what JP means when he says they totally complement and balance each other.

Another great post, and they definitely complement and balance each other.

flipflopz wrote:

ironcat wrote:I think my impression of Chrystie actually improved a bit because I understand her thinking more, although I don't agree with it and still think she is too impressed with herself and how smart she is (when her instincts and judgment aren't all that exceptional to start with). It seems she felt it was her job to protect Ashley from falling victim to the same Bachelor Bubble that caused her to mistakenly think she was in love with Brad last season. Ash also apparently told her family about the Bentley situation, so big sis was convinced that she needed to be the objective and rational one, since little sis' gut couldn't be trusted. Unfortunately, since she doesn't see Ashley as an adult, but as a bubbly carefree kid, the more mature, sedate (and nervous) Ashley she observed with JP was immediately judged as "wrong", whereas her juvenile behavior with Ben was "right". (And of course, she was so convinced she was correct that she never even gave JP a real chance to defend himself.) I don't doubt that Chrystie may have even pulled Ben aside and told him he for sure was "the one" and that Ashley was, in her opinion, in love with him, thus unintentionally putting Ben on the road to overconfidence and ultimate heartbreak. And Chrystie also put enough "doubt" in Ashley's head (combined with the bit of a stand off she had with JP after his MTP and their untimely separation for a few days after), that I think Ash really tried on her LCD with Ben to find any sort of passion with him to compare with JP, which led her to ramp up the kissing a little to no avail, I suspect. However, Ben then took this as further proof that she must now be in love with him. And thus, confidence becomes overconfidence, which clearly led him to "jump the gun" on the proposal, and totally ignore her body language, awkward silence and "sad face" (the same one we analyzed for weeks here!) when he first got to the podium.

I felt that Ben was more shocked than angry when he got turned down. He did wish her luck with JP, obviously it wasn't heartfelt, but at least he tried to be a little gracious. His cluelessness about how JP was the "safer choice" when the reverse was true was I guess just some attempt at rationalization, but I'll give him a break because making the poor guy leave in a dinghy couldn't have made it any less humiliating. And does anyone still think after seeing that producer decision that this wasn't all set up and orchestrated by them for maximum humiliation?

Ironcat, thank you for a WONDERFUL post! Throughout the day today, I have been trying to wrap my head around the Chrystie issues, so I appreciate your insight. While I understand Chrystie's intentions, I think her "picker" is off, and she mistook Ashley's mature relationship for her not being herself (as in bolded above). I am still struggling with the doubt she put into Ashley's head and how Ashley got past it. I know she and JP had that talk during the LCD, and while they addressed real life issues and how their relationship will work IRL, I do not feel that they addressed the specific issues of doubt that Chrystie put into Ashley's head- and that Chrystie and Ashley discussed (except maybe Chrystie's concern that JP is "much older" than Ash). I guess the result is that Ashley took a step back and questioned how the relationship would work IRL- and the issue that bothered Chrystie (Ashley's fun side was gone) did not bother Ashley. Whatever the case, Ashley must have given JP the confidence to propose since he said he was questioning it after the MTP. I know we have a happy ending, but I have been trying to figure this part out... damn tptb!

Thank you for your kind words! Although I don't know if Ash and JP resolved the issues Chrystie raised while they were still in Fiji, I have to say that in reading and listening to the multitude of interviews the pair has given today I am extremely impressed by how well they seem to "get it", so somewhere along the line they must have worked out how this relationship is going to function. They discussed how their different personalities complement and balance each other, her high energy bubbliness, vs. his more reserved calm; she said she brings more fun into his life, he provides stability/comfort to hers. He even said that he finds her ADD "adorable". So sometimes opposites really do attract and (hopefully) work well together. At least the fact that they seem to be able to happily acknowledge these things about themselves and each other and have obviously talked everything through makes me hopeful they really may last.

I have to also give them credit for giving some of the most substantive, intelligent and articulate interviews we have ever seen, unlike the usually conversationally challenged crew that generally appears on TB shows.

LibbyBell wrote:

Gina wrote:Libbybell. The pictures are in the non discussion JP/Ashley picture thread. There a ton of new ones in here:
http://bachandbachettefans.forumotion.com/t340p16-ashley-and-jp-pictures-no-discussion

That her gray big purse she takes everywhere: (these are 2 - there are alot of them)

OMG!!! Thanks so much Gina!! This made my day-- they are so cute!!

Aww they look so happy together!

ironcat wrote:

flipflopz wrote:

ironcat wrote:I think my impression of Chrystie actually improved a bit because I understand her thinking more, although I don't agree with it and still think she is too impressed with herself and how smart she is (when her instincts and judgment aren't all that exceptional to start with). It seems she felt it was her job to protect Ashley from falling victim to the same Bachelor Bubble that caused her to mistakenly think she was in love with Brad last season. Ash also apparently told her family about the Bentley situation, so big sis was convinced that she needed to be the objective and rational one, since little sis' gut couldn't be trusted. Unfortunately, since she doesn't see Ashley as an adult, but as a bubbly carefree kid, the more mature, sedate (and nervous) Ashley she observed with JP was immediately judged as "wrong", whereas her juvenile behavior with Ben was "right". (And of course, she was so convinced she was correct that she never even gave JP a real chance to defend himself.) I don't doubt that Chrystie may have even pulled Ben aside and told him he for sure was "the one" and that Ashley was, in her opinion, in love with him, thus unintentionally putting Ben on the road to overconfidence and ultimate heartbreak. And Chrystie also put enough "doubt" in Ashley's head (combined with the bit of a stand off she had with JP after his MTP and their untimely separation for a few days after), that I think Ash really tried on her LCD with Ben to find any sort of passion with him to compare with JP, which led her to ramp up the kissing a little to no avail, I suspect. However, Ben then took this as further proof that she must now be in love with him. And thus, confidence becomes overconfidence, which clearly led him to "jump the gun" on the proposal, and totally ignore her body language, awkward silence and "sad face" (the same one we analyzed for weeks here!) when he first got to the podium.

I felt that Ben was more shocked than angry when he got turned down. He did wish her luck with JP, obviously it wasn't heartfelt, but at least he tried to be a little gracious. His cluelessness about how JP was the "safer choice" when the reverse was true was I guess just some attempt at rationalization, but I'll give him a break because making the poor guy leave in a dinghy couldn't have made it any less humiliating. And does anyone still think after seeing that producer decision that this wasn't all set up and orchestrated by them for maximum humiliation?

Ironcat, thank you for a WONDERFUL post! Throughout the day today, I have been trying to wrap my head around the Chrystie issues, so I appreciate your insight. While I understand Chrystie's intentions, I think her "picker" is off, and she mistook Ashley's mature relationship for her not being herself (as in bolded above). I am still struggling with the doubt she put into Ashley's head and how Ashley got past it. I know she and JP had that talk during the LCD, and while they addressed real life issues and how their relationship will work IRL, I do not feel that they addressed the specific issues of doubt that Chrystie put into Ashley's head- and that Chrystie and Ashley discussed (except maybe Chrystie's concern that JP is "much older" than Ash). I guess the result is that Ashley took a step back and questioned how the relationship would work IRL- and the issue that bothered Chrystie (Ashley's fun side was gone) did not bother Ashley. Whatever the case, Ashley must have given JP the confidence to propose since he said he was questioning it after the MTP. I know we have a happy ending, but I have been trying to figure this part out... damn tptb!

Thank you for your kind words! Although I don't know if Ash and JP resolved the issues Chrystie raised while they were still in Fiji, I have to say that in reading and listening to the multitude of interviews the pair has given today I am extremely impressed by how well they seem to "get it", so somewhere along the line they must have worked out how this relationship is going to function. They discussed how their different personalities complement and balance each other, her high energy bubbliness, vs. his more reserved calm; she said she brings more fun into his life, he provides stability/comfort to hers. He even said that he finds her ADD "adorable". So sometimes opposites really do attract and (hopefully) work well together. At least the fact that they seem to be able to happily acknowledge these things about themselves and each other and have obviously talked everything through makes me hopeful they really may last.

I have to also give them credit for giving some of the most substantive, intelligent and articulate interviews we have ever seen from the usual conversationally challenged crew that generally appears on TB shows.

Thank you again, ironcat! You brought up another great point- somehow they made it through "the process" (so I guess I should build my bridge and get over it!!), and now we get to see where they are today (literally!). I completely agree with their interviewing skills, though I am still working through all the interviews.

Love_Me wrote:Ben and JP obviously were not close because Chris L had a very good idea that Ali would wind up with Roberto. They are still friends to this day. Ben had his group of friends during the season and JP had his. They both had very different relationships with Ashley. Obviously, the one with JP was stronger. So Ben might not be used to being rejected, but he still was under the impression that Ashely would pick him. Only he can answer why and what made him purpose and act the way he did at the time. I think his feelings and intentions were and still are genuine and understandable. JMO

No regrets... BUT...

As mentioned in an earlier post, their only date sharing Ashley was in Phuket's orphanage. Ben got the rose, but JP got most of her attention... and some serious make-out sessions.

Now Ben clearly saw how fast Jordan was "falling for" her as early as pre-orphanage, during Constantine's date. However, he would not know whether or not Ashley was "falling for" JP. Several guys noticed Ashley's comfort level with JP even in Phuket, like William and West... and probably Ryan as well, despite his continuing attempts for her on through Fiji. Did Ben also notice a Jordash connection in Phuket? Doesn't really matter. Phuket marked the last time both guys were around Ashley at the same time.

Production kept them apart on purpose, I'm afraid, because Ashley was now focused mostly on JP by this stage and they needed a Fall Guy. It is so unfair and cruel (as Ashley stated herself), but it is the Nature Of The Beast... the Fleiss Beast, that is. I kinda hope Ben does not accept any Bachelor position, because he was not getting honest answers even at the ATFR.

I personally think Ben got "played" a bit this season. They knew he was guarded, would likely be "the gentleman" who would not pass boundaries and, most importantly, took family approval very seriously. The last characteristic was a "theme" of his hometown (wishing he had been a better son). His favorable meeting with Ashley's family boosted his confidence a LOT. (You can tell from the deleted scenes that Mike accepted both guys as potential husbands, but was a bit too quick in responding to Ben like it was no big deal. With JP, he questions him more with a lot of concern. Nevermind Chrystie, the rest of the family was very impressed by JP... a lot.)

Another scary thought that makes Ben's upset break-up even more disturbing to watch…

I am wondering if William and Ryan were both being positioned for F2 Dumpee status by week #2, with JP as "potential" final one and Bentley as the wild-card. Willie's wedding date in Las Vegas was too public (with fans cheering and taking pictures) to be a final one choice. He left the same week Ben had his first 1 on 1 date, which makes me suspect that Ashley was "positioning" Ben into his "spot". Ryan got a rose in Hong Kong, which made Ben mad, but it is obvious to me that she liked him better than Ryan and that rose was just compensating for the fact that Ben was getting the 1 on 1 date(s) and Ryan was not. The timing of all of this is very suspicious to me... obviously I can't "assume" that she was selecting Ben as a final 2 dumpee to replace both William and Ryan, but so many of her conversations with Ben and voice-overs are about helping him "open up" more rather than seeing a future with him.

Had I watched this season a year ago, I probably would have thought Ben could be The Darkhorse Final One. However, I was burned by the Chris L. bandwagon, so I picked up on all of the getting-over-walls-or-tragedies schtick they were tossing to Ashley to say this season. This makes her breakup with Ben appear less "tragic" on screen. THREE times she calls him "boyfriend" on screen. Re-watching the Ali/Chris scenes demonstrate how she was starting to string him along, but hoping the experience of dating her would help him find love with somebody else. These Bachelorettes do not have it easy.

All of this was left in the edit to not only allow viewers to accept his final dumping, but also to remind Ben watching this unfold something he gained from this, despite losing the girl:

Barbara: I’ve been hoping that this has been a good experience…
Ben: This is one of the best experiences of my life. It’s changed from just being an adventure to actually having feelings for this girl. She’s incredible. She’s really great and I haven’t told her that I love her. I’m not forcing anything, but I told her that I like her and I like her a lot… and I like where things are going with her… and, watching you and dad, y’know, being married all those years is something that myself and Julia have always talked about wanting to model. Y’know, dating Ashley, um, has been an eye opening experience. There were times when I’ve been looking back on the first couple years after Dad died and how I should have been a better son and I should have done things differently… and I have regrets about those things. I have come to terms with those and I realized them. I should have been there more in the beginning.
Barbara: We all were having our own separate hurts individually and I think you were really coping with it the best you could.
Ben: I should have done it differently. I should have…
Barbara: But remember that’s the past…
Ben: It is.
Barbara: It’s nice that you acknowledged that. I really appreciate it. I think that Dad is really looking down on us. It’s his birthday tomorrow… and, you know, he’s probably thinking “Well done”.
Ben: We’re doing OK.
Barbara: And I think he’d be proud of you. I really do.

flipflopz wrote:

ironcat wrote:

flipflopz wrote:

ironcat wrote:I think my impression of Chrystie actually improved a bit because I understand her thinking more, although I don't agree with it and still think she is too impressed with herself and how smart she is (when her instincts and judgment aren't all that exceptional to start with). It seems she felt it was her job to protect Ashley from falling victim to the same Bachelor Bubble that caused her to mistakenly think she was in love with Brad last season. Ash also apparently told her family about the Bentley situation, so big sis was convinced that she needed to be the objective and rational one, since little sis' gut couldn't be trusted. Unfortunately, since she doesn't see Ashley as an adult, but as a bubbly carefree kid, the more mature, sedate (and nervous) Ashley she observed with JP was immediately judged as "wrong", whereas her juvenile behavior with Ben was "right". (And of course, she was so convinced she was correct that she never even gave JP a real chance to defend himself.) I don't doubt that Chrystie may have even pulled Ben aside and told him he for sure was "the one" and that Ashley was, in her opinion, in love with him, thus unintentionally putting Ben on the road to overconfidence and ultimate heartbreak. And Chrystie also put enough "doubt" in Ashley's head (combined with the bit of a stand off she had with JP after his MTP and their untimely separation for a few days after), that I think Ash really tried on her LCD with Ben to find any sort of passion with him to compare with JP, which led her to ramp up the kissing a little to no avail, I suspect. However, Ben then took this as further proof that she must now be in love with him. And thus, confidence becomes overconfidence, which clearly led him to "jump the gun" on the proposal, and totally ignore her body language, awkward silence and "sad face" (the same one we analyzed for weeks here!) when he first got to the podium.

I felt that Ben was more shocked than angry when he got turned down. He did wish her luck with JP, obviously it wasn't heartfelt, but at least he tried to be a little gracious. His cluelessness about how JP was the "safer choice" when the reverse was true was I guess just some attempt at rationalization, but I'll give him a break because making the poor guy leave in a dinghy couldn't have made it any less humiliating. And does anyone still think after seeing that producer decision that this wasn't all set up and orchestrated by them for maximum humiliation?

Ironcat, thank you for a WONDERFUL post! Throughout the day today, I have been trying to wrap my head around the Chrystie issues, so I appreciate your insight. While I understand Chrystie's intentions, I think her "picker" is off, and she mistook Ashley's mature relationship for her not being herself (as in bolded above). I am still struggling with the doubt she put into Ashley's head and how Ashley got past it. I know she and JP had that talk during the LCD, and while they addressed real life issues and how their relationship will work IRL, I do not feel that they addressed the specific issues of doubt that Chrystie put into Ashley's head- and that Chrystie and Ashley discussed (except maybe Chrystie's concern that JP is "much older" than Ash). I guess the result is that Ashley took a step back and questioned how the relationship would work IRL- and the issue that bothered Chrystie (Ashley's fun side was gone) did not bother Ashley. Whatever the case, Ashley must have given JP the confidence to propose since he said he was questioning it after the MTP. I know we have a happy ending, but I have been trying to figure this part out... damn tptb!

Thank you for your kind words! Although I don't know if Ash and JP resolved the issues Chrystie raised while they were still in Fiji, I have to say that in reading and listening to the multitude of interviews the pair has given today I am extremely impressed by how well they seem to "get it", so somewhere along the line they must have worked out how this relationship is going to function. They discussed how their different personalities complement and balance each other, her high energy bubbliness, vs. his more reserved calm; she said she brings more fun into his life, he provides stability/comfort to hers. He even said that he finds her ADD "adorable". So sometimes opposites really do attract and (hopefully) work well together. At least the fact that they seem to be able to happily acknowledge these things about themselves and each other and have obviously talked everything through makes me hopeful they really may last.

I have to also give them credit for giving some of the most substantive, intelligent and articulate interviews we have ever seen from the usual conversationally challenged crew that generally appears on TB shows.

Thank you again, ironcat! You brought up another great point- somehow they made it through "the process" (so I guess I should build my bridge and get over it!!), and now we get to see where they are today (literally!). I completely agree with their interviewing skills, though I am still working through all the interviews.

I think Ash and JP were fully prepared for today. Like Ash said back in Fiji, we've never had to justify our relationship and why it works. It just does. They appear to have spent the last couple of months solidifying their relationship and were ecstatic to go public. These 2 love and protect each other and today they took on the media and naysayers as a solid couple/team.

Another thing I am hoping to gain more clarity on. Are these screencaps photo shopped or did Ben really go by Ashley in the boat and is that JP's seaplane going to the location Ashley was waiting up above? Talk about salt in the wound brought to you by TPTB.

JP might not have been in that particular seaplane. There was at least 2 hours between proposals, I believe. There could've really been a seaplane flying over at that moment and they just wanted us to believe it was JP. I guess it could've been photo shopped, though.

I hope the first one was photo shopped because that was just humiliating.

I just got to watch the episode (not living in the US sux sometimes). The stuff with Chrystie and JP was hard to watch, but I got a little teary during their talk on the LCD and when Ash read the letter.

Ben proposing was hard to watch, I do think that Ashley really tried to feel "it" with him on their LCD, which probably didn't help. I don't think that is her fault though. It seems to me like she wanted JP and the thing with Chrystie threw her, but ultimately didn't change her decision.

Going to watch ATFR now